Canon XC10 4K camcorder

[Mattias Burling]

Fro Knows Photo's first 4K video post was shot on the XC10

[VanDaven]

Nice setup there - what LED light is that? 

Thanks, it's very useful and put my previous ENG gear to rest thanks to the XC10s ultra-portabililty. 

The LED light is a Sony HVL-LBPC, extremely versatile and bright. 

Looks as if its sturdy... For the time I help myself out this way ( No Light included though):

http://instagram.com/p/8AXjwjArAD

 

And sturdy it is... actually, after having owned a couple of "dslr-like" video cameras (7D, 5D3, GH4), the XC10 is the first one where I don't think that a cage or rig is necessary thanks to the amazing stabilization and the ergonomic design.

 

[tugela]

It's not soft, it's just that the Canon Log picture style does not add any in-camera sharpening, so you need to sharpen in post. If you use any of the other picture styles, it is as sharp as my 3-chip XF305. 

The (original) Beachtek version is actually stronger than you might think it is. Using this one every day and if you tighten them screws you can beat someone with that setup  

So, as someone who owns the camera, you are saying that it is as sharp as a 1080p camera? Interesting, because that is what some of us have been saying all along, that it is soft and only marginally better than HD.

[Mattias Burling]

So, as someone who owns the camera, you are saying that it is as sharp as a 1080p camera? Interesting, because that is what some of us have been saying all along, that it is soft and only marginally better than HD.

Stop being a troll and just answer the questions you keep dodging.

Lots of talk but every time you get called out you run away scared. Its all pretty lame and at this point nothing but spam.

 

[The Chris]

Nice setup there - what LED light is that? 

This is a nice knockoff of the Sony, there are others, throws a crazy amount of light - more than the cheap 96/128 LED panels

http://www.lacolorpros.com/product/?CM1800-Comer-CM-LBPS1800-On-Camera-LED-Light-(Sony-Battery)

[VanDaven]

So, as someone who owns the camera, you are saying that it is as sharp as a 1080p camera? Interesting, because that is what some of us have been saying all along, that it is soft and only marginally better than HD.

Erm, ok, I think there are some substantial things that are important at this point. First off, a 3chip system does not debayer (so also no moiré / aliasing etc.). 2nd off I was talking about 1080p performance (which is important to me because I almost never deliver in 4K). It performs better then the C300s I have worked with (still show some aliasing / artifacts) En plus, a detailed EBU assessment of the camera and it's resolution exists, which, in detail, can tell you about the XC10s performance, no need to argue about that. 

[Mattias Burling]

Erm, ok, I think there are some substantial things that are important at this point. First off, a 3chip system does not debayer (so also no moiré / aliasing etc.). 2nd off I was talking about 1080p performance (which is important to me because I almost never deliver in 4K). It performs better then the C300s I have worked with (still show some aliasing / artifacts) En plus, a detailed EBU assessment of the camera and it's resolution exists, which, in detail, can tell you about the XC10s performance, no need to argue about that. 

Only problem is that Tugela have gone through great lengts on another forum to explain that the EBU assessment are using the wrong method. And that he has a much more accurate way of meassuring than the BBC.

Of course its all based on arm chair evaluation

[Mattias Burling]

For people wondering how its works as an event RnG type of camera. This coverage from the Canon Expo was also shot on the XC10.

[tugela]

(Excuse the bit on the top, but the scripts that run the response box for this board are seriously bugged)

The EBU assessment is misleading because it overlooks the effects of debeyering. It refers to greyscale resolution only, which is different from color. An oversampled sensor will significantly outperform a nominal resolution sensor when it comes to color. That is the reason the XC10 is so soft in 4K (its lens likely doesn't help in that department either). If you want something that fully resolves at 4K you need lenses that are capable of delivering that and you need an oversampled sensor, otherwise you are going to get a lot less effective resolution.

The poster you were responding to was asking about softness, and softness discussions are in the context of 4K, not HD (which no one disputes that the XC10 is capable of). Pretty much all posted clips from the XC10 are excessively soft compared to other current 4K cameras. If someone was to argue otherwise, they should post video to demonstrate that, otherwise we can only go on what is already out there, and that is all soft.

Incidentally, a 3 chip system will show aliasing just as easily as any other sensor design if it is resolving edges at the pixel level. Perfect registration of the sensors is impossible however, so your effective resolution will be some number less than the pixel resolution. You can only get full HD if the sensor is significantly oversampled, and in that instance it doesn't make any difference if you have a beyer sensor or a 3 chip sensor.

[VanDaven]

(Excuse the bit on the top, but the scripts that run the response box for this board are seriously bugged)

The EBU assessment is misleading because it overlooks the effects of debeyering. It refers to greyscale resolution only, which is different from color. An oversampled sensor will significantly outperform a nominal resolution sensor when it comes to color. That is the reason the XC10 is so soft in 4K (its lens likely doesn't help in that department either). If you want something that fully resolves at 4K you need lenses that are capable of delivering that and you need an oversampled sensor, otherwise you are going to get a lot less effective resolution.

The poster you were responding to was asking about softness, and softness discussions are in the context of 4K, not HD (which no one disputes that the XC10 is capable of). Pretty much all posted clips from the XC10 are excessively soft compared to other current 4K cameras. If someone was to argue otherwise, they should post video to demonstrate that, otherwise we can only go on what is already out there, and that is all soft.

Incidentally, a 3 chip system will show aliasing just as easily as any other sensor design if it is resolving edges at the pixel level. Perfect registration of the sensors is impossible however, so your effective resolution will be some number less than the pixel resolution. You can only get full HD if the sensor is significantly oversampled, and in that instance it doesn't make any difference if you have a beyer sensor or a 3 chip sensor.

 

Thank you very much for your input on this matter. While I understand that all sensor designs have their aliasling limitations, real-world testing of a C300 (large format single sensor) vs. XF305 (3-chip design) a while back showed that the C300, even though utilizing oversampling via a 4K sensor for HD recording, was way more sensible towards moiré and aliasing than the XF305. 

In regards the XC10, I can only tell you and the rest of the community that it has been the most versatile addition to my image gathering tools  in a long time. The footage, no matter if 4K or FullHD, is easier to work with than whatever comes out of my GH4 and color-wise (especially in regards to reds) it's also more forgiving than my F55 (which, on the other hand, is 10 bit footage which is undoubtedly an advantage). 

One could argue all night whether it's "true" 4K or not, but in the end, it's a magnificent little camera that makes my work easier. 

[hmcindie]

 

This is a response to tugela, not VanDaven (I'm having issues with the quote system)

Disagree with this one. XC10 is just as soft as non-sharpened images should be. When you compare to something that is called "sharp" 4k, you are usually looking at very much sharpened images (for example, cell phone 4k material which tends to look artificial).

Just shoot with a 6k red and look at the material at 100%. It is quite soft. Sharpening should be left to post in my opinion. The bitrate is high enough to do so. I don't know what you mean by "already out there". You mean youtube videos? Ehm, ok? That's not very scientific.

Also your referring to color as being the reason for softness is inherently wrong.

[BrorSvensson]

These are really becomming popular in the skate/bmx industry (same with rx10 ii). I've seen quite a few videos lately with the Xc10 and some screw on fisheye. Looks really nice and cirspy. I think they hit a great spot in the market with the camera.

[Mattias Burling]

Thank you very much for your input on this matter. While I understand that all sensor designs have their aliasling limitations, real-world testing of a C300 (large format single sensor) vs. XF305 (3-chip design) a while back showed that the C300, even though utilizing oversampling via a 4K sensor for HD recording, was way more sensible towards moiré and aliasing than the XF305. 

In regards the XC10, I can only tell you and the rest of the community that it has been the most versatile addition to my image gathering tools  in a long time. The footage, no matter if 4K or FullHD, is easier to work with than whatever comes out of my GH4 and color-wise (especially in regards to reds) it's also more forgiving than my F55 (which, on the other hand, is 10 bit footage which is undoubtedly an advantage). 

One could argue all night whether it's "true" 4K or not, but in the end, it's a magnificent little camera that makes my work easier. 

And of course Tugela who is a NX1 shooter has first hand experiense with 4K downsampled from 6K showing moire.

But he would never admit it

[VanDaven]

And of course Tugela who is a NX1 shooter has first hand experiense with 4K downsampled from 6K showing moire.

But he would never admit it

Makes sense. Well, I almost purchased a C300 last year for exactly the same purpose that I got the XC10 now (cheaper and more portable than the F55). I would be quite annoyed if I would have. Btw, I delivered (sundown / rather low-light) 4K b-roll footage from a regional event to a well-known Austrian broadcaster a while ago and everyone thought it was from the F55... 'nuff said.

[Lintelfilm]

Fro Knows Photo's first 4K video post was shot on the XC10

It's a nice image. Never know what to make of JP - does he actually think he's Al Pacino or is it ironic? He looks like a Fabulous Furry Freak Brother.

Mattias - because you're in Europe do you shoot 25p on the XC10? I just noticed the bitrate for 25p is 205mbps, rather than the 305mbps for 24p and 30p (can't imagine why!). I normally shoot 25p (I'm in the UK) but not sure what I'd do here. Are they all long GOP? Do you notice any difference?

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

 If you want something that fully resolves at 4K you need lenses that are capable of delivering that and you need an oversampled sensor, otherwise you are going to get a lot less effective resolution.

Of course, which makes the Varicam35, Sony FS5, FS700, FS700, F5, F55, C300II, Epics, LS300, DVX200, 1DC, GH4, A7s/II, A7RII, BM Production, Cion, BM URSA, URSA mini, C500 not real 4K cameras, just like the XC10. 

The Bayer sensor resolution vs the resolved TVL/ph is an overly beat up subject that we all know, all these 4K cameras resolve around 2.7-2.9K (1600-1800TVL/ph) and that's the standard we call 4K today. It can't be used to criticize a specific camera as nearly every other 4K camera made by any manufacturer is the exact same up to the highest end cinema cameras. The XC10 resolves 1700TVL/ph 2.8k resolution, similar to every other 4K camera listed above.

All 8.9 mp 4K sensors on the market resolve 2.7/8k, they are Bayer sensors, impossible to resolve full 8mp of data. 

The only cameras that are ''real'' 4K are 8K ones, i.e., don't exist. Sony F65, Red upcoming VistaVision, Canon's upcoming 8K, Alexa65 are the only ones that come close. 

And again I see a huge confusion between sharpness and resolution when people see the GH4 (1600/1700TVL/ph) a real 4K camera while the XC10/1DC (1700TVL/ph) not real 4K ''resolution''. They're all the same ballpark, just in-camera different edge emphasizing algorithms that make Note 3/Iphone 4K look so clear and sharp despite having lower resolution. 

I believe it's a subject (Sharpness vs Resolution) worthy of a blogpost/article. 

On another note: how does the oversampled HD look on this camera? it's the most interest to me being 50mbps 4:2:2 oversampled from 4K with the same algorithm used on the C100II/C300 HD. Does it give the C100/300 HD resolution or do you have to shoot in 4K?

[Mattias Burling]

It's a nice image. Never know what to make of JP - does he actually think he's Al Pacino or is it ironic? He looks like a Fabulous Furry Freak Brother.

Mattias - because you're in Europe do you shoot 25p on the XC10? I just noticed the bitrate for 25p is 205mbps, rather than the 305mbps for 24p and 30p (can't imagine why!). I normally shoot 25p (I'm in the UK) but not sure what I'd do here. Are they all long GOP? Do you notice any difference?

I shoot 25p and does so in 305mbps. I can choose 205 to save space but don't
The difference isn't totally obvious but I can imagine if one peeps on a semi fast pan over lots of leaves in the wind or something like that.

[Lintelfilm]

I shoot 25p and does so in 305mbps. I can choose 205 to save space but don't
The difference isn't totally obvious but I can imagine if one peeps on a semi fast pan over lots of leaves in the wind or something like that.

Ah cool. The Cinema5D review said 205 in 25p. 

I believe it's a subject (Sharpness vs Resolution) worthy of a blogpost/article. 

On another note: how does the oversampled HD look on this camera? it's the most interest to me being 50mbps 4:2:2 oversampled from 4K with the same algorithm used on the C100II/C300 HD. Does it give the C100/300 HD resolution or do you have to shoot in 4K?

You should absolutely start your own blog Ebrahim. You've got the knowledge and experience, access to kit, good writing style. Or offer articles to Newshooter or some other blog like that. Seriously - I think you should consider it!

[Kubrickian]

 

You should absolutely start your own blog Ebrahim. You've got the knowledge and experience, access to kit, good writing style. Or offer articles to Newshooter or some other blog like that. Seriously - I think you should consider it!

He'll get immediately banned from this forum if he does that.

[Guest Ebrahim Saadawi]

You should absolutely start your own blog Ebrahim. You've got the knowledge and experience, access to kit, good writing style. Or offer articles to Newshooter or some other blog like that. Seriously - I think you should consider it!

He'll get immediately banned from this forum if he does that.

I'd need more access to gear to review/assess actually to get any sort of blog popular and going. All bloggers have that great B&H deal, but you don't get it unless you're a popular blog in the first place. Chicken vs. Egg. So it's too much time/investment that'll be a failure without quick access to latest gear by a camera seller. I always wanted to create a dream camera IQ evaluation tool that's a 100% definitive database for filmmakers. Sadly it's not gonna happen. Hope someone will!