Canon XC10 4K camcorder

[mercer]

Got my XC10 last night. Took it out this morning. Cool camera. I noticed in c-log, with zebras set at 100 and ettr, I wasn't able to pull back the highlights. It looked beautiful ettc. Just wondering if there are any c-log exposure tricks I'm unaware of?

[The Chris]

Geez, 4k is really unforgiving when it comes to blemishes and skin texture. I remember when my station went HD in the early 2000's, we had to make sure our makeup, hair and clothes were neat, otherwise viewers hammered us with comments about flaws. If broadcasting ever goes 4k, look out.

I mostly shoot wide with people in the shot to minimize that, but I'm working on a  40" panel so pimples are huge with tight closeups.

[mercer]

45 minutes ago, The Chris said:

Geez, 4k is really unforgiving when it comes to blemishes and skin texture. I remember when my station went HD in the early 2000's, we had to make sure our makeup, hair and clothes were neat, otherwise viewers hammered us with comments about flaws. If broadcasting ever goes 4k, look out.

I mostly shoot wide with people in the shot to minimize that, but I'm working on a  40" panel so pimples are huge with tight closeups.

Yeah, you ain't kidding. I added two ticks of the sharpen effect in FCPX to c-log and it was so sharp, I disabled it.

[Johny]

I recently bought a Canon XC10 and I have a very similar audio setup as in this post. I have a Beachtek MCC-2 to mix the signals from a Rode Videomic Pro and the Rode Filmmaker wireless kit. I was recording an event the other day, keeping my levels around -12db, but there is a considerable amount of background hiss once reviewing the footage in post.

In the camera audio menu I discovered that the manual audio gain level for audio coming into the camera was set at 79, this must be the factory default level. With other DSLR type cameras I have seen that people recommend that you set the audio gain level to 4 or 5 on the camera and then turn on the +20db audio gain on the external mic that you are using, i.e. Rode Videomic Pro.

I did this with the XC10 but 4 or 5 on the camera with +20db on the Videomic Pro was just too low to pick up any usable audio, even with the audio level dial on the MCC-2 turned up to max. So, my question is, could anyone recommend a good level to set the camera audio gain to in the audio menu in combination with the MCC-2, Videomic Pro and Wireless kit to achieve good audio without any dodgy pre-amp camera hiss?

Cheers,

[Lintelfilm]

Has anyone else noticed weird ghosting/banding with the XC10? It's most visible in out of focus areas (hence blurred images below). I've noticed it most in 4K though not sure about HD. My best guess is it's something to do with IS but I really have no idea. I've never seen anything like it before. Images below (look at the skin/face in the first two, and to the right of the face in profile on the last image for a "ghost profile" in the shadow). Very weird.).

 

The XC10 manual says "ghosting, artefacts and/or dark areas may appear when using Dynamic IS" --- however Dynamic IS isn't available in 4K mode (which the frame grabs above are from). I'll do some tests with/without IS but if anyone has experienced this too I'd like to hear about it.

 

[mercer]

@Lintelfilm what focal length was that shot at and were you still and your son was moving around, or were you both moving. I have noticed the IS struggles with the long end. It's a little better when you use the telephoto IS(forget what they call it) but I also have everything set at manual and use Push AF most of the time, so in the wide end, where I usually stay, there is little background blur. But I'll be on the lookout for it. 

Honestly, I have been using my XC10 primarily in 1080p because I just adore the 5-Axis and the 1080p in c-log. I think the 1080 downscaled internally from the 4K sensor seems better than most consumer cams 4K with post downscale. 

[Lintelfilm]

2 hours ago, mercer said:

@Lintelfilm what focal length was that shot at and were you still and your son was moving around, or were you both moving. I have noticed the IS struggles with the long end. It's a little better when you use the telephoto IS(forget what they call it) but I also have everything set at manual and use Push AF most of the time, so in the wide end, where I usually stay, there is little background blur. But I'll be on the lookout for it. 

Honestly, I have been using my XC10 primarily in 1080p because I just adore the 5-Axis and the 1080p in c-log. I think the 1080 downscaled internally from the 4K sensor seems better than most consumer cams 4K with post downscale. 

I was doing a little panning and the lens was at mid/wide length I think.

I love that the XC10's HD mode is so good and I use it a lot, especially for the 5 axis stabilisation but also for the low bitrate and of course 50p/slowmo. However the 305mbps UHD is unquestionably superior not just for detail but more importantly to me for colour (4:2:2), for motion cadence (high bitrate intra-frame) and for grading. It's just a very, very robust professional image that also fills a few holes my C100MkII doesn't cover - 4K for detailed wide shots, small size, timelapse, basic stills, superb IS/IBIS. Also a big deal for me is that it automatically down-samples the 10bit 4.2.2 UHD HDMI signal to HD to my Ninja Star, so I'm not missing 10bit ProRes from my BMPCC (which I just sold. *sob*).

I too use the Rode VideoMic Pro with Beachtec MCC-2 setup, but on the end of a SmallRig hotshoe top handle. This makes the whole package function much more like a traditional camcorder or mini C100. The MCC-2 allows running a wireless mic to the XC10 simultaneously too. The top handle is also great for using with the 5-axis for glidecam like shots.

iPhone lens is making the Rode mic seem much larger than it really is.

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but another really useful trick with this camera gets around the lack of custom buttons: Set the top dial to ISO, then use the mode dial to switch from Manual to Aperture Priority and/or Shutter Priority - select the aperture and/or shutter speed you want - then go back to Manual. This saves digging into the menus. 

I set custom button 1 to toggle powered IS on and off, button 2 as the ND and leave button 3 as Magnify (I did have it as AF but didn't use it - if I want manual focus I just flick the lens MF/AF switch). Focus is still a little unreliable even after the firmware update so magnify is handy for checking as peaking isn't always visible).

Point being it isn't a perfect camera and I'll be interested to see how Mark II turns out, but the issues it has can be worked around. The feature I'd like to see most in MkII would be DAF, as this camera is an incredible shot grabber that delivers almost 100% useable images for me, with the exception of it sometimes being hard to get accurate focus.

Of the niggles I have with it: I'd love to see a constant aperture lens but not at the expense of size. The lens could be a little wider too. More custom buttons is a necessity in the next model as even with my workaround white balance has to be changed in menu (though I use Auto WB most of the time). An EVF would be nice - I don't mind the loupe at all but it's a faff to carry around and makes the camera a little less inconspicuous (i.e. it looks quite weird).

Overall though it's a fantastic, hugely underrated little camera and a perfect complimentary camera to the C100.

 

[mercer]

4 hours ago, Lintelfilm said:

I was doing a little panning and the lens was at mid/wide length I think.

I love that the XC10's HD mode is so good and I use it a lot, especially for the 5 axis stabilisation but also for the low bitrate and of course 50p/slowmo. However the 305mbps UHD is unquestionably superior not just for detail but more importantly to me for colour (4:2:2), for motion cadence (high bitrate intra-frame) and for grading. It's just a very, very robust professional image that also fills a few holes my C100MkII doesn't cover - 4K for detailed wide shots, small size, timelapse, basic stills, superb IS/IBIS. Also a big deal for me is that it automatically down-samples the 10bit 4.2.2 UHD HDMI signal to HD to my Ninja Star, so I'm not missing 10bit ProRes from my BMPCC (which I just sold. *sob*).

I too use the Rode VideoMic Pro with Beachtec MCC-2 setup, but on the end of a SmallRig hotshoe top handle. This makes the whole package function much more like a traditional camcorder or mini C100. The MCC-2 allows running a wireless mic to the XC10 simultaneously too. The top handle is also great for using with the 5-axis for glidecam like shots.

iPhone lens is making the Rode mic seem much larger than it really is.

Not sure if anyone else has mentioned this, but another really useful trick with this camera gets around the lack of custom buttons: Set the top dial to ISO, then use the mode dial to switch from Manual to Aperture Priority and/or Shutter Priority - select the aperture and/or shutter speed you want - then go back to Manual. This saves digging into the menus. 

I set custom button 1 to toggle powered IS on and off, button 2 as the ND and leave button 3 as Magnify (I did have it as AF but didn't use it - if I want manual focus I just flick the lens MF/AF switch). Focus is still a little unreliable even after the firmware update so magnify is handy for checking as peaking isn't always visible).

Point being it isn't a perfect camera and I'll be interested to see how Mark II turns out, but the issues it has can be worked around. The feature I'd like to see most in MkII would be DAF, as this camera is an incredible shot grabber that delivers almost 100% useable images for me, with the exception of it sometimes being hard to get accurate focus.

Of the niggles I have with it: I'd love to see a constant aperture lens but not at the expense of size. The lens could be a little wider too. More custom buttons is a necessity in the next model as even with my workaround white balance has to be changed in menu (though I use Auto WB most of the time). An EVF would be nice - I don't mind the loupe at all but it's a faff to carry around and makes the camera a little less inconspicuous (i.e. it looks quite weird).

Overall though it's a fantastic, hugely underrated little camera and a perfect complimentary camera to the C100.

 

Very interesting info. Thanks.

A quick tap of the joystick brings you into the function menu which seems pretty simple to change ISO, shutter speed, etc...? I tried exposing in TV but found I could ride exposure pretty easily with my index finger while tracking people. I love that it's stepless.

Good idea to set Custom 1 to powered IS, I just left it for Display because I wear the camera around my neck with a strap. When walking to another location, the screen would bump against my chest and change something. So by pressing Display Off, it solved that issue. Button 2 I made ND... Which kind of annoys me because it seems to be either not enough or a hair too much... Wish it had one or two more stops of ND... Maybe MKii. And then button 3 I made Push AF, it's great to have it right there at my thumb. I tried to just switch back and forth, but I like how I can be on the long end and hit Push AF and hit my focus in a sec or two, and then readjust manually real quick for a rack focus. Of course, on tracking shots, I usually will flip on AF.

Andrew was right about the focus ring... It really is abysmal. At first use, I thought... It isn't so bad, it feels a lot better than a lot of other focus by wire lenses feel like, but then when you really start using it, you get to witness the strange erratic behavior. That is my one major gripe with the camera. They took the time to make a nice zoom ring, but then just crapped all over the focus ring. Doesn't make sense.

All in all though, it is the best camera I ever owned and just a complete joy to use. In some ways it's too good... If I don't watch myself and stay on my plan, I could easily have a 20:1 ratio because I just keep finding new angles and running footage. 

Btw, I didn't know it downscaled to 1080p for HDMI. Obviously since you're using the Ninja Star, then the monitor stays on. That's awesome news. I just picked up the GX85, on the cheap, so I could use my lenses and I was thinking about picking up a Ninja Star to go with it, now I have twice as many reasons to get one.

Also, I like your audio set up. I was planning on picking up a top handle and you seem to have a good configuration there. The beachtek seems promising too. Do you attach the Ninja Star to that handle as well?

And finally, I get you about the BlackMagic, I was planning on keeping my BMMCC for more controlled projects, but after using the XC10 for the past few weeks, I haven't used the Micro once, so I will list it for sale this week. 

[Lintelfilm]

I don't use the star with the top handle the whole handheld thing would go out the window a bit I think. I have the star on a manfrotto hotshoe ball head and a couple of screw in hotshoes on the stars plate that can take the mic etc just fine. You loose the ability to hold with the top handle but because of the rotating grip i don't miss it. 

[Amook]

I've gotten that weird ghosting before, but I haven't noticed it since I've updated to the newest firmware, though I haven't been shooting a lot of 4k lately. I do notice weird black dots over the image that looks like dirt. I think it shows up at higher iso's but haven't spent the time to test it yet. Here are a few still frame c-log shots. These are all ungraded straight out of the camera, just exported via resolve.

[Lintelfilm]

Can anyone confirm that the XC10 only works with self-powered external mics please?

My Videomic Pro works fine on it but I get no sound at all from a wired lav or a VideoMicro (both of which require power from the camera).

[Thpriest]

Has anyone tried the new firmware? Has it improved the XC10?

[Kubrickian]

10 minutes ago, Thpriest said:

Has anyone tried the new firmware? Has it improved the XC10?

It definitely improved the focus, both in accuracy and speed. 

[mercer]

2 hours ago, Lintelfilm said:

Can anyone confirm that the XC10 only works with self-powered external mics please?

My Videomic Pro works fine on it but I get no sound at all from a wired lav or a VideoMicro (both of which require power from the camera).

I have not tested a microphone that requires plug in power, but from my understanding, the XC10 does not supply it... Which I find very strange. 

[Lintelfilm]

2 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Has anyone tried the new firmware? Has it improved the XC10?

The faster focus is a pretty important update. It was much too slow before and led to missing loads of shots.

The low light improvement (HD only) is important too as ISO is the only tool you have in dim situations with the XC10. I regularly max it out when shooting at the longer end. 

I'd say it's an essential update.

I wish they'd port the shutter angle option and waveform etc that the XC15 got over to the XC10 with a new update. No shutter angle always seems like a very weird thing for such a video oriented camera. It would also take all the pain away from calculating timelapse shutter as the XC10 only does TL as 2x, 4x, 10x, etc.

Talking of which, time lapse on the XC10 doesn't get talked about much but it's a fantastic aspect of the camera. Auto-generated, high bitrate, 4K 4:2:2 TL videos with a built in ND and C-Log! Unless you're a proper timelapse nut and want to shoot RAW stills, the XC10 has to be one of the best in-camera time lapse options out there, particularly if you're wanting a painless and not-data-heavy workflow. The small sensor is much less of a disadvantage for TL too, due to generally wanting deep DOF and long shutter speeds letting plenty of light to the sensor (I haven't tried it at night mind you). I'm shooting time lapse more than ever before with this camera.

[Kisaha]

It is definitely a very interesting little cam, maybe a bit too early. How much ISO does it really stand, and can anyone compare the ISO capabilities with any other dSLR or S35 camera?

[Thpriest]

28 minutes ago, Kisaha said:

It is definitely a very interesting little cam, maybe a bit too early. How much ISO does it really stand, and can anyone compare the ISO capabilities with any other dSLR or S35 camera?

I'm interested to know this as well. It's what worries me about the camera.

[mercer]

4 hours ago, Kisaha said:

It is definitely a very interesting little cam, maybe a bit too early. How much ISO does it really stand, and can anyone compare the ISO capabilities with any other dSLR or S35 camera?

How much ISO do you need?

3 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I'm interested to know this as well. It's what worries me about the camera.

I've mainly used the camera in daylight, but I have brought it up to 3200 and there was some noise, it was definitely usable though. At 1600 it was clean.

I may have a chance to run some lowlight test within the next week or so. 

[Kisaha]

I just haven't seen one in the field. If can do 3200 with a cleaner output than m4/3, then it can be a winner. Plus, some ergonomical things have to change to make it truly "professional".

[Thpriest]

A low light test of the xc10 vs the gx85 would be very interesting! The gx85 is poor above 1600 imho

Did Andrew Reid ever publish his updated review of the XC10 after his trip to Italy?