Canon XC10 4K camcorder

[kidzrevil]

5 hours ago, mat33 said:

Its amazing how the XC10 went from crap-what was Canon thinking, to the XC10 is amazing-how did the internets get this camera so wrong, back to the XC10 is crap-I won't ever believe what the internets tell me ever again.  

In reality, it has very nice IQ in good light, and better than expected IQ in low light given the sensor size and slow lens.  IMO it makes up for any low light deficiencies with the form factor, c-log, lens range and great image stabilisation.

If you use it for what is it intended and play to its strengths, its a nice compliment to a C100.  Its not an A7S but then its probably not really fair to compare a 12 megapixel full frame sensor to a 12 megapixel 1 inch sensor for pure IQ in low light.  In good light, I think it holds it own and is very very easy to match to other C cameras.

It was good for the ergonomics then the more you use the shit in the field is the more the imperfections show up. The ghosting was terrible over 500 in clog. The standard profile helped but the DR was limited. After a while it became more of a burden than a tool. I wish they brought back the ergonomics with better hardware but oh well

[mat33]

3 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

It was good for the ergonomics then the more you use the shit in the field is the more the imperfections show up. The ghosting was terrible over 500 in clog. The standard profile helped but the DR was limited. After a while it became more of a burden than a tool. I wish they brought back the ergonomics with better hardware but oh well

Overall I've been very happy with mine in the field -haven't seen any serious ghosting with higher iso's. I've found it to be very easy to use with nice IQ, and quite refreshing compared to a hybrid mirrorless where video is secondary to stills. 

[kidzrevil]

6 hours ago, mat33 said:

Overall I've been very happy with mine in the field -haven't seen any serious ghosting with higher iso's. I've found it to be very easy to use with nice IQ, and quite refreshing compared to a hybrid mirrorless where video is secondary to stills. 

Thats great. I would love to see what you shot with it ! Me personally idc for the camera anymore. The ghosting used to leave a trailing effect on my unit. If you can tolerate that then fine but I sure won't. I shot this with it. What have you shot with it ? 

 

[hijodeibn]

21 hours ago, mat33 said:

Overall I've been very happy with mine in the field -haven't seen any serious ghosting with higher iso's. I've found it to be very easy to use with nice IQ, and quite refreshing compared to a hybrid mirrorless where video is secondary to stills. 

Probably mat33 got one of the good ones, I am sure the quality was not standard for all the cameras, and a good unit could be a dream, but I agree you have to show us some of your work to see what are your results….

[IronFilm]

On 1/18/2017 at 1:48 PM, Amook said:

@gatopardo Nope, sony f3. I gotta say I love everything but the bulk of the camera. The image even with just the internal recording is so far ahead of anything i've used before. I really liked the xc10 but the quality just drops off a cliff after iso 800, which with the slow lens happens in all but direct sunlight. I think canon tried to over sell the specs and cover up the ghosting which they fixed with a new version of the camera. Thats the reason I'll never buy anything new from canon again. I hope they are reading this thread.

That bulk is why I have gone from one extreme (bulked up F3 even more than in my profile pic here!) to the other extreme... and using my F3 in the most stripped down and minimal manner that I can!

[kidzrevil]

13 hours ago, hijodeibn said:

Probably mat33 got one of the good ones, I am sure the quality was not standard for all the cameras, and a good unit could be a dream, but I agree you have to show us some of your work to see what are your results….

Exactly. Still waiting on @mat33 work so we can evaluate the issue ??

[mercer]

1 hour ago, kidzrevil said:

Exactly. Still waiting on @mat33 work so we can evaluate the issue ??

Haha, now you're just being argumentative. Plenty of people, yourself included, got amazing results with the XC10.

@Lintelfilm and @BenEricson were both getting consistently great results with the XC10.

I think both sides of the coin are valid arguments and Canon should have to answer for the pitfalls and the unreasonable high cost of the camera, but we also got a lot of goodness in that camera as well.

If I was a wealthier man, or if the camera was priced at a grand, I would still own mine or buy another. 

[kidzrevil]

@mercer I've shot good footage with plenty cameras some better than others. I can pick up a t3i tommorrow and shoot good footage but that is not the point. People are on these forums deciding what their next purchase will be so it is critical that the information passed onto them is accurate. Not everyone has the bank to test out a camera, these are big investments ! I wish when I looked at the reviews on the xc10 the reviewer would highlight the fact that there were extreme ghosting in the footage. I had to find that out the hard way and wouldn't you know when I brought up the issue plenty people had it. If I got accurate information the first time I would be able to make a more informed decision and that's the point im making. If he has shot great footage with the camera I wan't to see it and evaluate if this is a quality control thing or a flaw in the design of the hardware period. Some of us on these forums speak as if we are experts on said camera but have no footage to show from our field work with it and that is very telling

[mercer]

12 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

@mercer I've shot good footage with plenty cameras some better than others. I can pick up a t3i tommorrow and shoot good footage but that is not the point. People are on these forums deciding what their next purchase will be so it is critical that the information passed onto them is accurate. Not everyone has the bank to test out a camera, these are big investments ! I wish when I looked at the reviews on the xc10 the reviewer would highlight the fact that there were extreme ghosting in the footage. I had to find that out the hard way and wouldn't you know when I brought up the issue plenty people had it. If I got accurate information the first time I would be able to make a more informed decision and that's the point im making. If he has shot great footage with the camera I wan't to see it and evaluate if this is a quality control thing or a flaw in the design of the hardware period. Some of us on these forums speak as if we are experts on said camera but have no footage to show from our field work with it and that is very telling

I see your point and respect it. I enjoy testing cameras and attempting to find one that fits perfectly with my style and plans. So far, I have not found the perfect match. But I really hope people do not listen to a word I say about anything, even if I knew everything... which I obviously don't. Look at specs, look at samples and then if they are still unsure, rent one or purchase from somewhere that has a good return policy.

All I can say about the XC10 is that I really enjoyed the camera and had to push it to a high ISO to see the ghosting. Or it's very possible you guys have better eyes and standards than I do. For what it is, a native ISO point and shoot cinema camera, I think a lot of filmmakers could do worse. 

[Mattias Burling]

Ive never seen any ghosting when shooting the XC10. Ive never seen it in your footage either until you pointed it out on a freeze frame.
Haven't looked through my footage in search for it either, maybe its there, maybe it isn't. Still a great camera imo.

[mat33]

4 hours ago, kidzrevil said:

Exactly. Still waiting on @mat33 work so we can evaluate the issue ??

I know we are a distrustful bunch, but I can verify I do actually have an XC10, I'm not trying to sell it to you as a rare non-ghosting collectable safari edition, and my younger sister isn't pregnant which is why I'm risking my EosHD credibility and my promising career at dental school :-)

I am just finishing an edit of something that should be suitable to post publicly, so I'll do that when I get a chance. Its nothing groundbreaking just a montage of some travel shots with the family but I was happy with the quality.  I might even set my XC10 to iso20000 and wave it madly in front of a vase or similar to see if I do get any ghosting.

I understand where you are coming from, and that you wish to make sure any prospective buyers don't just get the rose tinted view of the camera.  I also appreciate the ghosting may be a show stopper for some.  But my point is, which I think is valid and also important for prospective buyers to know, is that there are XC10 users out there who are happy with their cameras and that in their real world use aren't bothered by ghosting (regardless of whether their camera produces it or not).

Nice vid by the way. 

[kidzrevil]

14 minutes ago, Mattias Burling said:

Ive never seen any ghosting when shooting the XC10. Ive never seen it in your footage either until you pointed it out on a freeze frame.
Haven't looked through my footage in search for it either, maybe its there, maybe it isn't. Still a great camera imo.

yeah I am very selective with what shots I pick once I figure out the ceiling of what a camera is capable of. In the case of the xc10 if I can't get the shot at 500-800 the footage goes in the garbage. In daylight I used to overexpose clog by 1-1 3/4 of a stop to get the best signal to noise ratio and supress ghosts

[hyalinejim]

@kidzrevil that video above sums up for me how I feel about the XC10. In good light, like the outdoors shots, the camera gives a lovely image which can be pushed quite hard in grading. But when light is low, the image is not good - it's mushy, falls apart in the grade, colour rendition suffers and ghosting is a PITA. For what kidzrevil needs to do - fashion, music vids, etc. - image quality is paramount and the XC10 doesn't cut the mustard.

For more casual stuff like travel vids and documentation it's absolutely fine.

I promised to post a few frame grabs to show off what the camera can do when conditions are right. The weather was great the other day so we went for a walk. I brought along the XC10 as I wanted to check out how an X-Rite Colorchecker might improve colour separation using MBR Color Corrector 2 plugin for AE (it did help).

No look LUTs here. Everything is EOS Standard, corrected for colour using the X-Rite, and a simple white balance, contrast and saturation adjustment.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kidzrevil]

@hyalinejim thank you ! You get EXACTLY what I mean ! I completely understand the requirements of a hobbyist or someone who just shoots casually is a lot less stringent however I do this to keep the lights on. You have to deliver an impeccable image to remain competitive as a freelancer so I am picky with the tools I depend on for my trade

[Mattias Burling]

Imo its always important to think through what the camera is supposed to be good at.
The XC10 is 100% a full on professional camera. Period.

But that doesn't mean that I would recommend it for fashion shoots or as A-cam on a music video.
That's just weird.
Its like me recommending an Alexa as a helmet camera...

If one would have analyzed it beforehand it might have gone a little like this:

"Ok what segment is this meant for, what cameras is it replacing?"

"Ahh, its a step up for mainly journalists and reporters that use the XA20 and XF100/200 today.
Loads of paper and webb journalists use those for the online content. Quick interviews, in house communication, quick stops at press conferences."

"Wait, would anyone use those cameras for my fashion shoots?"

"Nope, no one uses small sensor run-n-gun camcorders for my type of videos, I guess its not for me."

In the end the only way forward is to bite the bullet and get a large sensor cinema camera. You can use still cameras or try to cram a camera like the XC10 into segments where it doesn't belong.
But then you have to take the consequences of the compromise.
My guess is that the G80, GH5, A7sii, etc will keep on getting replaced every year until they are replaced with something like a C100 or other camera meant for the job.

[kidzrevil]

@Mattias Burling funny cause I bought the camera after your stunning review and recommendation. I really liked the footage you shot at the rally with it as well as some clips I seen from other reviews. The sensor size of the camera is irrelevant, the a7sii & g80 are more than enough for a fashion editorial & I've shot plenty. The xc10 is versatile enough to get the job done but the ghosting wasn't mentioned at all and that was a critical flaw of the camera. A large sensor cinema camera is too bulky and obtrusive to do any of the type of shooting im doing and is highly overrated when my delivery is to web & social media where the average monitor displays a maximum of 1920x1080. So again it has little to do with the sensor size, make & model and everything to do with the lack of hardcore testing of the camera.

the minute I picked it up and tested it and revealed the ghosts a ton of people started noticing it in their units.

what other people or the "pro's" shoot with is of no concern to me. Just because no one is using small sensor camcorder types to shoot their videos doesn't mean I can't pick one up and create a new aesthetic from it. Using what no one else is using is another way you create your own aesthetic. Having your own "look" is emphasized when you use the tools no one else is using. When you follow the pack you get left behind period. 

so in short there is no camera "meant" for the job. There are people shooting productions on the iPhone 6 and 7. So many people in fact that filmconvert launched a profile for it. You can use any camera if you know the basics of composition and lighting (reference Kendy Ty's work with a canon t3i) but no amount of knowledge as a DP  can protect you from a hardware flaw such as the in camera NR. 

Here is my last fashion editorial shot with the xc10

 

[Mattias Burling]

31 minutes ago, kidzrevil said:

There are people shooting productions on the iPhone 6 and 7. So many people in fact that filmconvert launched a profile for it. You can use any camera if you know the basics of composition and lighting (reference Kendy Ty's work with a canon t3i) but no amount of knowledge as a DP  can protect you from a hardware flaw such as the in camera NR. 

My point exactly!
Accept for the last part.
Your knowledge can definitely protect you from hardware flaws in the same way it protects you from the horrible consequences of using camera A over camera B.

My point is:
The shooter is the key. Learn how to shoot and use light and almost any camera will do.
But learn your cameras pros and cons so you can work with and around them.
Get the camera that suits your needs.
Every camera out there, every single one, has huge deal breaking flaws.
You just have to pick the once you can live with

 

[kidzrevil]

@Mattias Burling absolutely. i got good footage from the xc10 because of me the shooter...not so much cause of the hardware. Where I went wrong was when I assesed the pro's and con's from an online review instead of testing it on my own so when I got it in my hands I figured out the hard way it has a mine field of problems. I couldn't live with the xc10's flaws so it went straight to ebay. I am now using a g80 and I am fully satisfied with it. Good tip though i'll definitely keep that in consideration for my next purchase

[tugela]

If you are a professional you are probably best advised not to get the latest products until their flaws are well known and understood. And every camera will have flaws and weaknesses, the severity of which will vary depending on how you use them. If you have a tight budget then rent/borrow any particular camera before you buy one, so you can see if it will work for you and fit your needs.

[kidzrevil]

9 minutes ago, tugela said:

If you are a professional you are probably best advised not to get the latest products until their flaws are well known and understood. And every camera will have flaws and weaknesses, the severity of which will vary depending on how you use them. If you have a tight budget then rent/borrow any particular camera before you buy one, so you can see if it will work for you and fit your needs.

lol of course. But when the camera is out over a year + and no one finds the flaws then what does one do in that situation ? Wait another year or two ? I guess because I AM a professional is the reason I was so quickly able to identify and expose the flaw. Thanks for the pro tip though :-)