Canon XC10 4K camcorder

[henricus]

Thought it was about time to register and revive this thread ?

Anyone here still using the XC10 (or XC15)? I just bought one! I finally realized after having used m43 and apsc cameras for some time that what I really want is a more run and gun style videocam. Like I used in the old days.. I just don't care much for shallow depth of field. Frankly I think it is a bit overrated and overused. I understand the need for it, but not for my type of work. Also the price was just so damn low, it was impossible to resist ?

So enter the XC10. I have been experimenting with it now for a couple of days, and I have to say it is a fun camera! The ergonomics are super, the stabilization is top notch, auto focus is smooth and the image quality.. there is something about that image it produces.. Especially in C Log. I find it really attractive.

I have some questions about the settings though. Apparently getting the settings right is tricky for this camera, which is evident by reading through this thread..

So I will probably be using this camera mainly in HD mode. As I understand from this thread it is best to shoot in C-Log around base ISO and ETTR (standard eos in low light). Another option that I tried today is to use it in TV mode. I haven't put much effort yet in grading the test footage, so I can't say yet what works best. Definitely an extra ND filter is needed to keep the ISO low. I have read that the HD quality is better in 50p, is this right? Normally I would shoot in 25p 1/50. Also I've read in this thread that ghosting is reduced when shooting 50p at 1/50? Is this the way to set up the camera, or is it just best to shoot in 25p 1/50 or 50p 1/100? I am a bit confused about this..

Looking forward to your reactions ?

Greetings from China!

 

 

[kye]

@henricus greetings from Australia!

The XC10 is a lovely video camera, welcome to the club!

My recommendations are to shoot 4K if you can handle the file sizes, or 1080 24/25 fps if you can. Shoot C-log at the lowest ISO you can - ISO performance isn't great but it also adds temporal NR at the higher ISOs which is where the ghosting comes from (something I've never seen in real life BTW). The slow-motion mode isn't good quality at all, especially if you're shooting C-log or will need to grade much, as it's highly compressed 8-bit.

Keeping the 180degree shutter is only an aesthetic choice I think.

If you're shooting C-log then a simple conversation with the Canon C-log to rec709 LUT and then basic grading using the lift/gamma/gain controls should give excellent results.

The focus peaking isn't that precise so I'd suggest using the punch-in if you're using MF button, otherwise autofocus works quite well and I found it to be accurate.

I like getting a bit more separation in my shots than the XC10 provides so I've moved to the GH5 with primes, but apart from that aspect the camera was a joy to use.

Enjoy!

[henricus]

Thanks Kye!

My xc10 is a pal version, so somehow 24p is not an option. Too bad because that’s what I’d normally use. At the moment I want to work in HD since I plan to record a lot of material for a docu style project. And my computer had already trouble to handle the 4K g85 files.. I’ve read that the HD quality in good light is rather good, so I’d like to try that our first.

So you prefer 25p over 50p? In this mode there is also the option to record in mp4 file structure. Will that degrade the quality in any way? I’ve read posts from Van Daven and others that they prefer the 50p mxf quality on the xc10. Btw I have no interest in using slow motion. I just want to know in what HD setting the file quality is the highest. 

I love the way the auto focus organically snaps into focus. This is one of the things that always annoyed me with my mirrorless camera’s. The af was always so abrupt, not to speak of the hunting. With this camera you can actually use af with confidence.

I have now attached a 2 stop ND filter, this together with the built in 3 stop ND filter shoukd make it easier to keep the iso low enough.

 

[Yurolov]

I picked one up recently too as a nice compact travel option. For people who don't want to concentrate on their gear too much and just focus on content this camera is great. No futzing around with focus, changing lenses, nd issues, stabalization, etc. Shallow depth of field is a aesthetic choice like anything else. If you have good colors and a nice codec you don't require it to get a filmic image, especially with clog. The only downsides are lowlight performance and the colors in clog aren't as good as you would get from a c100. I find the skintones a bit flat, which is a bit disappointing. I got mine for 850 usd so I think it is a no brainer at this point. 

[henricus]

Exactly! For the type of work I do I need to be able to rely on the camera to get the shots without attracting too much attention. Especially in China.. This camera is perfect for that. What are your settings (in HD)?

[Yurolov]

25fps, 1/50, clog, autofocus with face detect, and standard stabilization. 

[Kisaha]

I can understand your enthisiasm. Canon had the recipe to create a best selling small video camera but left it to that.

This camera design could be the best for a small dedicated video camera, and could be an amazing low budget solution partnered with the cheap and capable EF-M lenses (with 3 of them and the EF adapter could do anything).

I am wondering what Canon sells in their XC and C line. Sales must have been really miniscule in 2018 and 2019 can be catastrophic (relatively to the company's market position the previous years).

[henricus]

6 hours ago, Yurolov said:

25fps, 1/50, clog, autofocus with face detect, and standard stabilization. 

Thanks. Do you use the mp4 or mxf codec? Is there actually any quality difference between the two?

[Yurolov]

I haven't compare the two but I would stick with the mxf. 

[kye]

22 hours ago, henricus said:

Thanks Kye!

My xc10 is a pal version, so somehow 24p is not an option. Too bad because that’s what I’d normally use. At the moment I want to work in HD since I plan to record a lot of material for a docu style project. And my computer had already trouble to handle the 4K g85 files.. I’ve read that the HD quality in good light is rather good, so I’d like to try that our first.

So you prefer 25p over 50p? In this mode there is also the option to record in mp4 file structure. Will that degrade the quality in any way? I’ve read posts from Van Daven and others that they prefer the 50p mxf quality on the xc10. Btw I have no interest in using slow motion. I just want to know in what HD setting the file quality is the highest. 

I love the way the auto focus organically snaps into focus. This is one of the things that always annoyed me with my mirrorless camera’s. The af was always so abrupt, not to speak of the hunting. With this camera you can actually use af with confidence.

I have now attached a 2 stop ND filter, this together with the built in 3 stop ND filter shoukd make it easier to keep the iso low enough.

The 25p has a bit more data per frame than the 50p, and IIRC the MXF has a higher bitrate than the MP4, but probably the best thing to do is run some tests yourself and see how it performs.  I'd suggest doing a side-by-side test that includes skin tones and do shots that are normally exposed, one stop over and one stop under, then grade them and you'll get a bit of a feel for how they push around in post.

I used to setup the camera so that the first resolution option was 4K 305mbps, the second was 50p MXF, and the last was 25p MP4.  I'd use the 4K for most things, 50p for slow motion, and the mp4 for long shots like time lapses or whatever where the quality doesn't matter much but file sizes did.  After I did a grading test that included a mixed-lighting shot in c-log 50p and brought up the shadows a bit I was pretty crushed at how awful it looked.  I then did a slow-motion test of 4K25 slowed to 50% using Optical Flow vs the 50p MXF and decided to never use the 1080 modes again    But if you expose normally then it should be fine

I found that a 4-stop ND was enough to get 180degree shutter even with the sun in frame, so 2-stops should be fine  

[henricus]

Thanks for the tips Kye, I’ll do some tests!

[henricus]

On 4/11/2017 at 8:49 AM, hyalinejim said:

I'm in Bali at the moment. Getting some amazing images on my XC10. All in good light, of course!

I’m having more difficulty in the smog of Shanghai.. 

[henricus]

On 7/9/2017 at 6:40 AM, bertholddiederich said:

I just got a XC15 and I haven't yet figured out the best way to expose when using Canon Log. I know that middle grey should be at 32 IRE but the on-screen waveform monitor is quite small, so I'm not sure if that's the best way. If I put the camera in shutter priority mode, set it at 1/48 (I'm shooting at 24 fps) and ISO 500, will the camera correctly auto expose for the best results in log? Or should I over expose by two stops? 

Thanks...and I promise to read more of the thread to answer more of these questions myself!

Have you found a way to get the right exposure? I’ve also tried the shutter priority mode with iso 500 in C-Log. I’m not sure if the present weather conditions work well with this setting. There is no sun or light to be found at the moment in Shanghai. I am not getting satisfactory results yet.. Maybe one or two stops exposure compensation will bring life into this grey mess. Or is it just better to shoot in manual and crank up the iso? I will try the eos standard profile tomorrow. Maybe that is a more suitable profile for dull weather conditions.

[kye]

26 minutes ago, henricus said:

Have you found a way to get the right exposure? I’ve also tried the shutter priority mode with iso 500 in C-Log. I’m not sure if the present weather conditions work well with this setting. There is no sun or light to be found at the moment in Shanghai. I am not getting satisfactory results yet.. Maybe one or two stops exposure compensation will bring life into this grey mess. Or is it just better to shoot in manual and crank up the iso? I will try the eos standard profile tomorrow. Maybe that is a more suitable profile for dull weather conditions.

In general, if you're shooting with 8-bit codecs it's best to get the exposure and colour as close as you can in-camera so you're not trying to push/pull the image too much in post.  10-bit is another story, and of course bitrate also comes into it too.

In terms of the dull lighting from the fog/smog it depends on what you're making and what is in the frame, but at a certain point you have to accept that flat lighting creates a flat image regardless of what you do.  What kind of end result are you hoping for?

[henricus]

35 minutes ago, kye said:

In general, if you're shooting with 8-bit codecs it's best to get the exposure and colour as close as you can in-camera so you're not trying to push/pull the image too much in post.  10-bit is another story, and of course bitrate also comes into it too.

In terms of the dull lighting from the fog/smog it depends on what you're making and what is in the frame, but at a certain point you have to accept that flat lighting creates a flat image regardless of what you do.  What kind of end result are you hoping for?

At the moment the footage is kind of too mushy, and of low definition. I understand what you are saying about the flat lighting/flat image, but I had better succes with the g85 in the same conditions. 

[webrunner5]

You are not going to get C100 sharp output from it, especially 1080p.

[BenEricson]

41 minutes ago, webrunner5 said:

You are not going to get C100 sharp output from it, especially 1080p.

You will, but it needs to be F3.5 - F8 and it needs to be 4K. I had my best luck with CLOG @ ISO500. Some of the built in profiles are nice if you turn the noise reduction all the way down. 

Talking about this camera makes me want this camera again. The colors it produces are just really so nice. Perfect camera to bring on trips, as long as you’re only shooting in the day. The range on the lens is incredible. 

[kye]

11 hours ago, henricus said:

At the moment the footage is kind of too mushy, and of low definition. I understand what you are saying about the flat lighting/flat image, but I had better succes with the g85 in the same conditions. 

@BenEricson is correct that you should try it in 4K mode..  @webrunner5 is wrong here - the XC10 in 4K 305Mbps mode has the edge on the C100, it's a closely run race though, which is a tribute to the C100 because it's doing it with about 10% the file size.  

You may also want to play with sharpening and see what you prefer there.  I like the less sharpened look but everyone is different

[henricus]

Thanks! I guess it’s time to tryout the 4K ?

14 hours ago, BenEricson said:

You will, but it needs to be F3.5 - F8 and it needs to be 4K. I had my best luck with CLOG @ ISO500. Some of the built in profiles are nice if you turn the noise reduction all the way down. 

Talking about this camera makes me want this camera again. The colors it produces are just really so nice. Perfect camera to bring on trips, as long as you’re only shooting in the day. The range on the lens is incredible. 

I got mine for $700 ?

So it’s best to keep the aperture above F3.5? ? I did shoot a lot of test footage at F2.8..

[BenEricson]

8 hours ago, henricus said:

Thanks! I guess it’s time to tryout the 4K ?

I got mine for $700 ?

So it’s best to keep the aperture above F3.5? ? I did shoot a lot of test footage at F2.8..

I forgot it went to 2.8 on the wide end. 2.8 is great. I just notice the image gets noticeably mushy if you’re all the way closed down.