Help me decide: Canon C300 Mark III or Sony FX9

[BTM_Pix]

9 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Interesting, and this would work with the URSA Mini Pro 4.6K as well? (or only for the 12K? Googling seems to indicate only for the 12K?)

12K and Broadcast G2 only.

[Jedi Master]

8 hours ago, kye said:

How good are your colour grading abilities?

You might be better off buying the camera that's easiest to colour grade, or has the nicest out-of-the-box colour science rather than the camera with the most potential if you've got a team of dedicated pros in post-production.  

I’m quite good at it. Not pro-level, of course, but I’m always able to achieve results that look good to me, and as a hobbyist, that’s what really counts. I currently use s-log2 or 3 on my Sony A6500 and grade in Davinci Resolve Studio. During my camera research, I’ve downloaded lots of sample footage from various cameras and experimented with grading it in Resolve. My favorites, so far are Canon Cinema RAW Lite, v-log, and REDRAW. 

[Jedi Master]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Although the more modern ones will do better. The RED ONE of course being the worst, I was on a shoot where they draped frozen bags over it. 

Like I said, RED is infamous for this. Hated by the sound department, as we'll go over and ask for them to turn their fans down, and they'll whine "no we can't, otherwise it will overheat". 

But in you case, you'll be using the more modern-ish DSCM2 body, and you don't need to care about the sound dept, you can just happily crank up that fan to go at max noise all day long. 

Wow, that sounds like a real issue. Perhaps not so for me, however. My work in the field generally consists of walking to a new site, setting up the tripod and camera, and taking 2-3 minutes of footage before breaking it down and moving to the next location. The Sony A6500 I have has a reputation for overheating, but I’ve never encountered it, even on summer days when the temperature is over 40C, probably because I take short clips with plenty of time in between.

Sound isn’t much of an issue, as I rarely can use in-camera sound for various reasons, the primary one being the often noisy tourists in the places I like to film. I almost always replace the sound with background music and narration. For the times when ambient sound is needed and the footage would seem weird without it, like surf crashing on shore, I send my assistant (my wife) closer to the source with a Zoom F6 and directional mic to capture sound. For instances when ambient sound would add to the experience, like birdsong, but doesn’t require synchronization with the video (like surf does), I have a whole collection of sound clips recorded with the Zoom I can drop into videos.

 

[Jedi Master]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

here is a range of opinions you can read about RED in one place:

https://www.premiumbeat.com/blog/future-of-red-cameras/ 

Wow, interesting reading. That certainty took my opinion of RED down a notch or two.

[gt3rs]

What cinema lens do you have or do you rent?

What mount and frame coverage are they?

 

 

[Jedi Master]

18 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

What cinema lens do you have or do you rent?

What mount and frame coverage are they?

None yet. I plan to buy some in whatever mount and coverage (S35 or FF) the camera I buy requires.

[IronFilm]

13 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Wow, that sounds like a real issue. Perhaps not so for me, however. My work in the field generally consists of walking to a new site, setting up the tripod and camera, and taking 2-3 minutes of footage before breaking it down and moving to the next location. The Sony A6500 I have has a reputation for overheating, but I’ve never encountered it, even on summer days when the temperature is over 40C, probably because I take short clips with plenty of time in between.

This is a good example of what I'm talking about, how your priorities / needs / deal breakers are very very different to what it is for a professional. 

The a6500 is wildly unsuitable for professional usage, because it is completely unreliable due to overheating issues. 

The only people using the a6500 "professionally" are: low budget videographers (such as wedding filmmakers), students, vloggers, or people using the a6500 is a noncritical role (such as Sony FX9 owner op, who has an a6500 as their C Cam)

And while the RED cameras are seen as very unreliable, they're still from a professional perspective much more reliable than showing up on set with a Sony a6500! 

As for Blackmagic reliability, I'd rate them a bit higher than an equivalent priced RED. 

Keep in mind that "reliability" is not only relative to what level production it's on (vloggers vs the next hollywood blockbuster film) but also relative to what era we're talking about. 

RED had their peak during the early years of digital filmmaking, when expectations were lower and tolerances were higher. As standing around waiting for a RED to cool down was still no slower than waiting for a film mag to be reloaded, or having an SDI output blow was no big deal because hey lots of S16 / S35 film shoots didn't even have video villages! 

But for this to happen today??? 110% unacceptable!! 

And that is the era in which Blackmagic exists in now, as Blackmagic's popularity didn't really get super high until the URSA Mini launched (and the Pocket 4K / 6K as well). 

So Blackmagic now has to live up to much higher standards and expectations than RED did back when RED first gained popularity. But in absolute terms, I'd probably give BMD the edge over any vaguely equivalent priced RED in terms of reliability. 

But anyway, both RED and BMD I'd rate higher than an a6500. (at least in the terms of things that could go wrong, it wouldn't hold you back from filming in the same manner as you would with an a6500)

Carrying on this point, lots of reasons why people would use many of these higher end cameras, are not relevant to your use case (you don't at all need multiple independent SDI outputs for instance). 

Even going for a Sony FX3 could be a big leap up for you, and could be the right choice? Even though I'd personally rather have an FX9! But that's because I'm wanting a dozen features the FX9 has, but are features you don't need. 

https://ymcinema.com/2023/11/01/atomos-prores-raw-sony-fx3-alexa/

Panasonic S1H / BS1H / S5mk2 X would also all be great choices. 

https://*banned URL*/atomos-panasonic-s1h-prores-raw 

13 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Sound isn’t much of an issue, as I rarely can use in-camera sound for various reasons, the primary one being the often noisy tourists in the places I like to film. I almost always replace the sound with background music and narration. For the times when ambient sound is needed and the footage would seem weird without it, like surf crashing on shore, I send my assistant (my wife) closer to the source with a Zoom F6 and directional mic to capture sound. For instances when ambient sound would add to the experience, like birdsong, but doesn’t require synchronization with the video (like surf does), I have a whole collection of sound clips recorded with the Zoom I can drop into videos.

Nice, it's a real couple's activity you do together! 🙂

Which mic are you using? 

You should definitely get yourself a timecode box to use with your future camera purchase and the Zoom F6. 

[IronFilm]

6 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Even going for a Sony FX3 could be a big leap up for you, and could be the right choice? Even though I'd personally rather have an FX9! But that's because I'm wanting a dozen features the FX9 has, but are features you don't need. 

https://ymcinema.com/2023/11/01/atomos-prores-raw-sony-fx3-alexa/

Panasonic S1H / BS1H / S5mk2 X would also all be great choices. 

https://*banned URL*/atomos-panasonic-s1h-prores-raw 

ehhh... I forgot about that URL being blacklisted, my bad 

I'll link instead to something else mentioning the raw updates (I can't edit the post, as more than 5 minutes has elapsed):

Panasonic S1H / BS1H / S5mk2 X would also all be great choices. 

https://www.dpreview.com/news/1509469257/panasonic-blackmagic-raw-recording-more-to-the-s1h-s1-forthcoming-firmware-updates

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1743629-REG/panasonic_dc_s5miix_ff_mirrorless_camera.html

https://petapixel.com/2023/05/09/panasonic-announces-blackmagic-raw-compatibility-for-s5iix-and-s5ii/

[Jedi Master]

On 11/10/2023 at 9:37 PM, IronFilm said:

Which mic are you using? 

You should definitely get yourself a timecode box to use with your future camera purchase and the Zoom F6. 

We use a Rode NTG2 shotgun mic. Syncing sound and video hasn’t been a problem—Davinci Resolve has some nice tools for syncing sound, and my wife is really into the production part of making these videos—in addition to the Zoom and mic, she has a clapper slate to identify the clips and provide a sync sound. Would a timecode box significantly improve this process?

[IronFilm]

It would, you could use your Zoom F Series recorder as the master, jam TC from that into a timecode box then put it on the camera 

 

Then you'll always have files that start out being perfectly frame accurate with each other.

 

Get say a Deity TC1 for instance 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1705805-REG/deity_microphones_dtt0272d80_tc_1.html

And if you're going to be spending so much on a new camera, I'd suggest upgrading your mic too? Say the new DPA 2017 for instance looks good? And is priced drastically cheaper than DPA mics normally are.

 

Or maybe even go a bit more fancy, and go for a midside setup, especially now that Sennheiser just released the 8020 the other day. Now you can make a very compact setup of that with an 8060 in a blimp

 

 

[IronFilm]

6 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Or maybe even go a bit more fancy, and go for a midside setup, especially now that Sennheiser just released the 8020 the other day. Now you can make a very compact setup of that with an 8060 in a blimp

 

Ughhh... Hate how I can't edit this just because six minutes has passed.

I meant to say the new 8030, with 8050 (or 8040, depending on your tastes).

Would seriously suggest you go with *both* options (Sennheiser M/S + DPA 2017), it isn't that pricey (much cheaper than some other alternatives), & quite affordable vs the camera budget you've got in mind.

As the use of a 2017 vs M/S are quite different purposes, so you could go for one or the other (or both at once, your F6 has plenty of channels to record all of them) depending on what it is you're trying to record 

 

[Davide DB]

On 11/11/2023 at 6:37 AM, IronFilm said:

RED had their peak during the early years of digital filmmaking, when expectations were lower and tolerances were higher. As standing around waiting for a RED to cool down was still no slower than waiting for a film mag to be reloaded, or having an SDI output blow was no big deal because hey lots of S16 / S35 film shoots didn't even have video villages! 

But for this to happen today??? 110% unacceptable!! 

I agree with what you write, and even here in Italy I see that rental services are focusing so much on Sony FX and more and more independent productions are renting Arri. 
But for what is my passion (underwater documentaries) and nature documentaries I see that REDs are still the most popular. Even looking at the BTS of big productions (BBC) in nature footage there are almost only REDs. I am not very experienced but maybe because of more availability of high frame rates.
BTW I read that the latest episode on the African jacanas was filmed with a remotely controlled "Z-cam". BBC rarely mentions camera models and they are usually only seen in BTS footage.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/mediapacks/planet-earth-three-episode-4-freshwater

 

 

[Jedi Master]

After much research and thought this weekend, my shortlist is down to these three, in order of most preferred to least preferred:

Canon C300 Mark III

RED DRAGON-X

Sony FX9

Mostly it came down to looking at sample footage. The Sony footage does nothing for me—it seems bland and sterile compared to the Canon and the RED footage. (I found FX9 footage from several sources, so it’s not one bad example). The FX9 can’t record RAW internally, and the other two can.

[gt3rs]

FX9 or C500 II would be more comparable.

Still why not a C70 i think for a one man band is a better buy than a C300 III?

 

[Jedi Master]

1 hour ago, gt3rs said:

Still why not a C70 i think for a one man band is a better buy than a C300 III?

I don't like two things about the C70: its form-factor, and its built-in flip-out screen.

[gt3rs]

2 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

I don't like two things about the C70: its form-factor, and its built-in flip-out screen.

I understand, flip out screens are super valuable on gimbals but I get that is not something that you are using for your nature work.

[kye]

5 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

After much research and thought this weekend, my shortlist is down to these three, in order of most preferred to least preferred:

Canon C300 Mark III

RED DRAGON-X

Sony FX9

Mostly it came down to looking at sample footage. The Sony footage does nothing for me—it seems bland and sterile compared to the Canon and the RED footage. (I found FX9 footage from several sources, so it’s not one bad example). The FX9 can’t record RAW internally, and the other two can.

Translation: the people who graded the Sony footage aren't as good at colouring than the people who coloured the Canon and RED footage.

Seriously - there's the Dynamic Range, Bit Depth, Low light, and Frame-rates, but the entire rest of the equation is the skill of the people in pre, prod, or post.  Ungraded and poorly lit ARRI Alexa footage looks like home videos until the colourist gets involved.

[Jedi Master]

30 minutes ago, kye said:

Translation: the people who graded the Sony footage aren't as good at colouring than the people who coloured the Canon and RED footage.

This was ungraded, s-log footage that I downloaded. I'm a competent grader (although not as good as a professional, obviously), but just couldn't get results I liked with the Sony footage.

The Canon and RED footage was ungraded Canon Cinema RAW Lite and REDRAW footage, which I graded myself.

The fact that I had an easier time grading the Canon and RED footage indicates to me that I'd have an easier time grading footage from a Canon or a RED camera, if I decided to go that route, than a Sony camera. It's entirely possible that someone else could grade Sony footage to make it look as good, or better, than the Canon and RED footage, but I need to choose based on my own capabilities.

To quote Dirty Harry, "A man's got to know his limitations".

[TomTheDP]

I have definitely found RED easiest to work with color wise. But the C300 MK3 is way more run and gun friendly. Have you considered the URSA 12K. I know BM doesn't get the hype that RED, Canon and Sony do, but the image is really good. The crop of the camera is 1.3x, between S35 and full frame. I'd download some footage from that and see what you think.

[kye]

1 hour ago, Jedi Master said:

This was ungraded, s-log footage that I downloaded. I'm a competent grader (although not as good as a professional, obviously), but just couldn't get results I liked with the Sony footage.

The Canon and RED footage was ungraded Canon Cinema RAW Lite and REDRAW footage, which I graded myself.

The fact that I had an easier time grading the Canon and RED footage indicates to me that I'd have an easier time grading footage from a Canon or a RED camera, if I decided to go that route, than a Sony camera. It's entirely possible that someone else could grade Sony footage to make it look as good, or better, than the Canon and RED footage, but I need to choose based on my own capabilities.

To quote Dirty Harry, "A man's got to know his limitations".

Are you using colour management of some kind?  ACES / RCM?

Once you've learned that, almost all footage is the same.  I can't believe that people still grade and don't do this - I was never able to get anything to look good until I worked this out.  Sadly, it took me far longer to realise this than it should have!
I think this is why there are 50,000 YouTube videos from amateurs on "How I grade S-Log 2" and "How to grade J-Log 9" and why every second video from professional colourists (the few that share content online for free) is about colour management.  It used to drive me crazy hearing the same thing over and over again until I realised that it's the key that unlocks everything, and that getting really good results is incredibly simple once you've figured it out (getting great results becomes super complex again because colour grading is an infinitely deep rabbit hole, but that's well beyond these discussions).

The other variable is what the individual shots were.  It's not uncommon for me to go shoot something, with one camera and one lens, and then some shots just drop into place and look great and other ones are fiddly and I can never get them how I want.  This is a hidden trap for downloading footage other people have shot.