Help me decide: Canon C300 Mark III or Sony FX9

[Jedi Master]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Are you using colour management of some kind?  ACES / RCM?

I use Resolve Studio and have these color management settings:

Importing Canon RAW Lite and REDRAW automatically converts the clips into Rec.709 and they look pretty good as-is and don't require much color grading. Doing the same with s-log files doesn't do that--I need to use a LUT (which I downloaded from the Sony website) or do it manually.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

I don't like two things about the C70: its form-factor, and its built-in flip-out screen.

Why don't you like a flip out screen? Just buy a SmallHD monitor?

What's wrong with its form factor? You're using it on a tripod after all to film landscapes / nature. 

7 hours ago, gt3rs said:

FX9 or C500 II would be more comparable.

Still why not a C70 i think for a one man band is a better buy than a C300 III?

Agreed, the C70 is very much so a smaller / lighter C300mk3 if you don't need all the extra settings & extra I/O (which @Jedi Master doesn't). 

9 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

(I found FX9 footage from several sources, so it’s not one bad example).

Yes, but how was it shot? 

The same camera shot at golden hour vs harsh sunlight can look totally different.

Also a lot of this comes down to personal preferences and what each brand is trying to  achieve. It's like that classic Nikon vs Canon battle in photography. Where Nikon leans towards color accuracy while Canon says screw accuracy and leans towards a "pleasing" look (as a lot of people don't want to accurately capture the world, instead they wanted to capture it like they wished it looked). But in the end, that's just where they lean towards by initial default, and either can be made to look like the other. 

It's why I reckon you should rent a few cameras, when you're going to be spending this much. 

I'd suggest you rent:

1) at least one of any BMD Pocket 

2) at least one of any BMD URSA Mini 

3) at least one of any ARRI cameras

4) Panasonic S1H and/or S5mk2 (with a Ninja V recorder too if you can)

5) at least one of Sony FX30/FX3/FX6

6) Sony FX9

7) any RED Dragon body

8 ) any RED Komodo body

9) any one of the modern Panasonic Varicams (or if not, at least a Panasonic EVA1 with a raw recorder??)

10) Canon C300mk3

11) Canon C70

12) whatever other random wild card camera you might be able to get your hands on locally (any of the Z Cam / Kinefinity / Fujifilm / C700 / F35 / etc cameras)

Even at a rate of shooting with one of these per week, that list will keep you busy for a few months!

As there is a massive difference between reading about a camera online vs using it in the field. 

Believe it or not, every single camera from that list I've worked with on productions!! And many many more. (although of course, I don't touch their files afterwards, as I'm not in post production. But am a PSM / 1st AS)

9 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

The FX9 can’t record RAW internally, and the other two can.

Meh, I reckon raw is rather overrated. You'll be surprised how very very rarely I work on productions recording in raw. If you can't nail a good image in camera with a solid 10bit codec then you might have bigger issues to worry about first. 

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Have you considered the URSA 12K.

It is currently on sale (I think for Black Friday?), only US$5K!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1776944-REG/blackmagic_design_ursa_mini_pro_12k.html 

9 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

RED DRAGON-X

I still don't quite understand why you're so keen on buying a brand new but old RED??

If for some reason I went with a RED (I wouldn't! Bad business decision, but let's just pretend I am doing this), then I'd go with either the most dirt cheap approach I can to maximize my value (such as a secondhand RED Scarlet Dragon for instance, their brains can be found for sub US$2K) or I'd go with the latest gen of RED I could afford with a new RED Komodo X (or in your case, go for a RED Komodo X, as you don't need the extra A Cam I/O features that the Komodo X has over the standard Komodo). 

The RED Komodo is only sub $6K to buy the body, as it is on sale right now: 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1677830-REG/red_digital_cinema_710_0359_komodo_6k_starter_pack.html 

Then I'd pair it with a couple of the very affordable Fujinon cine zoom lenses:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1603697-REG/fujinon_38512012_mk_r_18_55mm_t2_9_lens.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1603698-REG/fujinon_38512013_mk_r_50_135mm_t2_9_lens.html

 

[kye]

58 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

I use Resolve Studio and have these color management settings:

Importing Canon RAW Lite and REDRAW automatically converts the clips into Rec.709 and they look pretty good as-is and don't require much color grading. Doing the same with s-log files doesn't do that--I need to use a LUT (which I downloaded from the Sony website) or do it manually.

Yeah, that's sort-of the same as not using colour management, as (unless you use the HDR palette to grade with) you're not getting any of the advantages of colour management.  Your workflow is basically the same as applying a LUT and then trying to grade in 709, which is essentially ignoring 95% of the power of the tools at your disposal.

Without teaching you how to do colour management, as there are much better sources for that than me typing, what you want your pipeline to look like is this:

1. A transformation from the cameras colour space / gamma into a working colour space / gamma
2. Do all your adjustments in the working colour space / gamma
3. Transform from the working colour space / gamma into a display colour space / gamma (e.g. 709)

What you have told Resolve to do is to transform the cameras colour space / gamma into rec709, and any adjustments you're making to that using any of the tools will happen in rec709.  Some of the tools are designed for rec709 but some are designed for log, and most of them won't really work that well in 709.  Only the "old timers" who learned to grade in 709 and won't change still do it this way, everyone else has switched to grading in a log space - some still grade in Arri LogC because that's how they learned, but everyone else grades in ACES or Davinci Intermediate, as these spaces were designed for this.

I transform everything into Davinci Intermediate / Davinci Wide Gamma and grade in that as my timeline / working space (these mean the same thing).  I can pull in Rec709 footage, LOG footage, RAW footage, etc, and grade them all on the same timeline right next to each other - for example iPhone, GX85 (709), GH5, BMPCC, etc.  I can raise and lower exposure, change WB, and do all the cool stuff to all the different clips and they all respond the same and just do what you want.  If you've ever graded RAW footage and experienced how you can just push and pull the footage however you want and it just does it, then it's like that, but with all footage from all cameras.  Before I adopted this method, colour grading just felt like fighting with the footage, now everything grades like butter.

[Jedi Master]

16 hours ago, kye said:

Yeah, that's sort-of the same as not using colour management, as (unless you use the HDR palette to grade with) you're not getting any of the advantages of colour management.  Your workflow is basically the same as applying a LUT and then trying to grade in 709, which is essentially ignoring 95% of the power of the tools at your disposal.

Without teaching you how to do colour management, as there are much better sources for that than me typing, what you want your pipeline to look like is this:

1. A transformation from the cameras colour space / gamma into a working colour space / gamma
2. Do all your adjustments in the working colour space / gamma
3. Transform from the working colour space / gamma into a display colour space / gamma (e.g. 709)

Thank you. Looks like I was using a poor method of color grading based on a lack of understanding of color management. The one I've been using I learned by trial and error and it worked for my A6500 footage. Looks like it's time to learn a better method, so I plan to put my camera decision on hold for a while while I learn more about color management. I'll start with ACES and go from there. After that, I'll go back and regrade all of the clips of sample footage I downloaded and see if I can get better, more consistent results.

[Jedi Master]

18 hours ago, IronFilm said:

12) whatever other random wild card camera you might be able to get your hands on locally (any of the Z Cam / Kinefinity / Fujifilm / C700 / F35 / etc cameras)

I've taken another look at the Kinefinity MAVO Mark2 S35 camera since I learned they have a U.S.-based sales and service entity in Southern California.

I also learned that I was completely mistaken about ProRes support in DaVinci Resolve Studio. I was under the assumption that ProRes wasn't supported at all, but have learned that only ProRes RAW isn't supported. I've downloaded a bunch of ProRes footage shot on the Kinefinity and have noticed that it plays very smoothly in Resolve. Much better than typical H.264 footage and far far better than H.265 footage. No need for proxies at all.

If anyone knows of any Kinefinity horror stories, please let me know. For now, it's back on my short list.

[kye]

2 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Thank you. Looks like I was using a poor method of color grading based on a lack of understanding of color management. The one I've been using I learned by trial and error and it worked for my A6500 footage. Looks like it's time to learn a better method, so I plan to put my camera decision on hold for a while while I learn more about color management. I'll start with ACES and go from there. After that, I'll go back and regrade all of the clips of sample footage I downloaded and see if I can get better, more consistent results.

No worries!

A couple of suggestions beyond learning more about colour management (so that you've got it clear in your head)....

Learn to colour manage using Nodes, rather than using the Resolve settings.
The reason I suggest this is that there are all sorts of cool little tricks you can do in Resolve by transforming to a different colour space, doing something, and then transforming back.  This means that you'll be doing some colour management in the node graph.  However, if you're doing that and also using Resolves colour management menus then your colour management configuration is split between nodes and menus etc and so it can become confusing because you can't see the whole pipeline in one place.

This might be a good start for getting your head around colour management...  This is Cullen Kelly, possibly the most experienced colourist on YT, and this talk is a complete introduction (ie, it's not just a fragment) to the topic:

The other thing is to rate the camera like it's an acquisition device, not from the footage.

What I mean by this is that each camera you're looking at has greater image quality than you will be able to capture, because they're all high-end cameras, so the limitation will be the footage you are able to capture with it.  This comes down to workflow.  

You need to be able to understand how the camera works and how to get the optimal results from it, how to set the camera up optimally, you'll need to get it prepped, get it to the location, carry it, identify good locations while carrying it, set it up including mounting lenses and filters, turning everything on etc, prep the shot by composing / exposing / focusing, and only then hitting record.  

This all sounds obvious, but (to make my point a bit more obvious), if the camera was 100kg/lb then you wouldn't be mobile enough to get it to the best compositions, if you are tired you wouldn't even see the best compositions, if there's a great composition that is time-sensitive (like, something is moving - animals in a field - people walking etc) but it takes a minute to setup the shot then the moment will be gone, etc.

You can only grade the footage you actually record...

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

I also learned that I was completely mistaken about ProRes support in DaVinci Resolve Studio. I was under the assumption that ProRes wasn't supported at all, but have learned that only ProRes RAW isn't supported. I've downloaded a bunch of ProRes footage shot on the Kinefinity and have noticed that it plays very smoothly in Resolve. Much better than typical H.264 footage and far far better than H.265 footage. No need for proxies at all.

ProRes is is the widespread industry standard, I work on productions more often using ProRes than anything else!

It is absolutely unthinkable that DaVinci Resolve wouldn't support ProRes

[kye]

4 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

I've taken another look at the Kinefinity MAVO Mark2 S35 camera since I learned they have a U.S.-based sales and service entity in Southern California.

I also learned that I was completely mistaken about ProRes support in DaVinci Resolve Studio. I was under the assumption that ProRes wasn't supported at all, but have learned that only ProRes RAW isn't supported. I've downloaded a bunch of ProRes footage shot on the Kinefinity and have noticed that it plays very smoothly in Resolve. Much better than typical H.264 footage and far far better than H.265 footage. No need for proxies at all.

If anyone knows of any Kinefinity horror stories, please let me know. For now, it's back on my short list.

The other thing to mention, beyond what @IronFilm said, is that the thing that matters most for editing is if the codec is ALL-I or IPB.  

To drastically oversimplify, ALL-I codecs store each frame individually, but IPB codecs define most frames as incremental changes to the previous frame, so if you want to know what a frame looks like in an ALL-I codec you just decode that frame, but in an IPB one you have to decode previous frames and then apply the changes to them.  In some cases, the software might have to decode dozens or hundreds of previous frames just to render one frame, so the simple task of cutting to frame X in the next clip is a challenge, and playing footage backwards becomes a nightmare.

Prores is always ALL-I, but h264 and h265 codecs CAN be ALL-I too, but it's not very common.  This is probably the cause of almost all of the performance differences between them.

[gt3rs]

9 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

I've taken another look at the Kinefinity MAVO Mark2 S35 camera since I learned they have a U.S.-based sales and service entity in Southern California.

I also learned that I was completely mistaken about ProRes support in DaVinci Resolve Studio. I was under the assumption that ProRes wasn't supported at all, but have learned that only ProRes RAW isn't supported. I've downloaded a bunch of ProRes footage shot on the Kinefinity and have noticed that it plays very smoothly in Resolve. Much better than typical H.264 footage and far far better than H.265 footage. No need for proxies at all.

If anyone knows of any Kinefinity horror stories, please let me know. For now, it's back on my short list.

On modern HW, Macs >=M1 and Intel >= Gen12 CPUs, h265 4:2:2 10bit is not an issue anymore. I can edit real-time 8k h265 10bit on Intel Gen13 CPU. I don't see a huge difference in speed h265 4k and 8k ALL-I vs IPB.

On modern HW no need for proxy especially in 4k timelines. I edit mostly 8k RAW on a high end gaming notebook no proxy needed.

For Resolve keys are:

- studio version

- Intel >= gen12 

- GPU with 8 GB RAM




 

[gt3rs]

Still not sure why you are choosing between FX9 vs C300 II?

Full frame: FX9 vs C500 II vs RED V-Raptor 

or 

S35: FX6 vs C300 III (C70) vs RED Komodo X

RED and Canon have internal RAW. Sony not.

I bet Canon will update beginning of next year the C300 and/or the C500 to move to RF mount as the C70. They just released the cinema primes in RF and now the new RF 24-105 2.8 power zoom so the road is clear. 
RED already using RF mount. It may or may not a concern for you.

Sony is E mount so is all modern and good there.

I'm sure you would be happy with any of the camera above. But first you should ask yourself which look you like: super sharp high DR or more soft dreamy?
Also do you heavily color grade including big white balance changes etc. or your are looking more to a natural style.

A FF 8k/6k RAW camera with a photo lens will produce a sharper and provably a bit more HDR look than a S35 4k with a cinema lens....

 

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

S35: FX6 vs C300 III (C70) vs RED Komodo X

FX6 is only large format (unless you drop down to HD). Unlike the FX9 which can switch between either LF or S35 mode. 

Anyway, I'm guessing OP isn't too bothered by sensor size, and prefer to focus more on capabilities/features and the image itself. Which is a similar attitude to what I'd have too when deciding upon my next camera. (although, I'd have a preference for S35! But if the perfect camera I want is only LF, then I'll just have to live with it. Such as the Sony FX6, or the next Blackmagic 6K cine camera, if they bring out a "Pro" version with both L Mount and internal NDs!)

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

I bet Canon will update beginning of next year the C300 and/or the C500 to move to RF mount as the C70. They just released the cinema primes in RF and now the new RF 24-105 2.8 power zoom so the road is clear. 

I agree, I bet a new C200/C300/C500 is just around the corner with an RF mount. And I'm betting out of those three, they'll probably have it be the C300 they update first to an RF Mount. 

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

A FF 8k/6k RAW camera with a photo lens will produce a sharper and provably a bit more HDR look than a S35 4k with a cinema lens....

Nope, not at all necessarily true. 

[gt3rs]

14 hours ago, kye said:

 

This might be a good start for getting your head around colour management...  This is Cullen Kelly, possibly the most experienced colourist on YT, and this talk is a complete introduction (ie, it's not just a fragment) to the topic:

 

It is a bit slow pace for my test but it is a really good video explaining how color management in Resolve works. Thanks for sharing!

[kye]

8 hours ago, gt3rs said:

It is a bit slow pace for my test but it is a really good video explaining how color management in Resolve works. Thanks for sharing!

One thing I find a real challenge these days is the pace of real learning.  Once you've watched a few dozen 5-15 minute videos that explain random pieces of a subject (likely sprinkled with misunderstandings and half-truths) then going to a source that is genuinely knowledgeable is often very difficult to watch, because not only do they start at the beginning and go slowly, they also repeat a bunch of stuff you've heard before.

The pay-off is that they are actually a reliable source of information and that not only will they likely fill in gaps and correct mis-information, but they might actually change the way you think about a whole topic.

I had this with a masterclass I did from Walter Volpatto - I completely changed my entire concept of colour grading.  It was a revelation.  It's actually a bit of a strange thing because I can see that lots of people think the way I used to, but there's no easy way to get them to flick that switch in their head, and when you try and summarise it, the statements sound sort-of vague and obvious and irrelevant.  

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, kye said:

One thing I find a real challenge these days is the pace of real learning.  Once you've watched a few dozen 5-15 minute videos that explain random pieces of a subject (likely sprinkled with misunderstandings and half-truths) then going to a source that is genuinely knowledgeable is often very difficult to watch, because not only do they start at the beginning and go slowly, they also repeat a bunch of stuff you've heard before.

I just watch everything on youtube at 2x speed 😉

[kye]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I just watch everything on youtube at 2x speed 😉

I wish they'd add ability to go higher.

[IronFilm]

20 minutes ago, kye said:

I wish they'd add ability to go higher.

If you want even higher, there are lots of options with browser extensions if you want to go say 3x or 4x speed. 

For example:

https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/youtube-playback-speed-co/hdannnflhlmdablckfkjpleikpphncik/ 

[Jedi Master]

I spent some time learning more about color management and think I have a better system for color grading in Resolve.

I create two nodes. The first one is an ACES transform and converts the color space from that of the camera into ACEScct, like this:

The other node is also an ACES transform that converts from ACEScct color space to Rec.709 for display on a monitor, like this:

Then I set the timeline color space to ACEScct, thusly:

I then create additional nodes between the node that converts camera color space to ACEScct and the one that converts ACEScct color space to Rec.709 and make all adjustments to those additional nodes. That seems to be a much better way to color grade in Resolve, and the HDR color wheels seem to work much better and more predictably.

[kye]

1 hour ago, Jedi Master said:

I spent some time learning more about color management and think I have a better system for color grading in Resolve.

I create two nodes. The first one is an ACES transform and converts the color space from that of the camera into ACEScct, like this:

The other node is also an ACES transform that converts from ACEScct color space to Rec.709 for display on a monitor, like this:

Then I set the timeline color space to ACEScct, thusly:

I then create additional nodes between the node that converts camera color space to ACEScct and the one that converts ACEScct color space to Rec.709 and make all adjustments to those additional nodes. That seems to be a much better way to color grade in Resolve, and the HDR color wheels seem to work much better and more predictably.

That all seems correct.  I use Davinci as my intermediary, but I don't know of any arguments that put one above the other.  Setting the Timeline Colour Space is the hidden one that often isn't mentioned, so good to see you're on top of that as well.

Just to test it, I suggest pulling in a bunch of footage from a range of cameras onto the same timeline and seeing how that feels.

If you were to do lots of work with multiple cameras, I'd suggest the following:

• Put all the clips from each camera into a Group in the Colour Page
  (this unlocks two extra node graphs - the Group Pre-Clip and Group Post-Clip
• Put the camera-to-ACES transform in the Group Pre-Clip
• Put the ACES-to-Rec709 transform in the Timeline

That way the Clip graph can be copied between any clip to any other clip easily for anything you want to apply to the clips, and anything you want to put across all clips in your timeline can go in the Timeline graph.  Just a note that if you do this, the Timeline graph will apply to everything in the timeline including titles / VFX / etc, which doesn't work for some folks.

[kye]

1 hour ago, Jedi Master said:

I spent some time learning more about color management and think I have a better system for color grading in Resolve.

I create two nodes. The first one is an ACES transform and converts the color space from that of the camera into ACEScct, like this:

The other node is also an ACES transform that converts from ACEScct color space to Rec.709 for display on a monitor, like this:

Then I set the timeline color space to ACEScct, thusly:

I then create additional nodes between the node that converts camera color space to ACEScct and the one that converts ACEScct color space to Rec.709 and make all adjustments to those additional nodes. That seems to be a much better way to color grade in Resolve, and the HDR color wheels seem to work much better and more predictably.

Just noticed one other thing - when you're converting from ACES to Rec709 you might want to apply some Gamut compression, otherwise the signal might just clip on output.  You don't have to do it in the transform, you can do it beforehand if you like, it's just something to keep an eye on while you're grading 🙂 

[Jedi Master]

2 hours ago, kye said:

Just to test it, I suggest pulling in a bunch of footage from a range of cameras onto the same timeline and seeing how that feels.

I've only had a chance to try it so far with some Canon RAW Lite footage that I downloaded. It made a big difference. One of the clips had a sky background and it previously was a blank blueish white with no detail. With the new method, I could manipulate some sliders and I discovered there are clouds in that sky that weren't there before.