Help me decide: Canon C300 Mark III or Sony FX9

[kye]

2 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

I've only had a chance to try it so far with some Canon RAW Lite footage that I downloaded. It made a big difference. One of the clips had a sky background and it previously was a blank blueish white with no detail. With the new method, I could manipulate some sliders and I discovered there are clouds in that sky that weren't there before.

Glad to hear you're enjoying it!

Some cameras record "super-whites" which are values above 100%.  They can be recovered if you pull down the exposure so they come into the "legal" range of 0-100%.  IIRC my Canon XC10 does it, and my Panasonic GX85 definitely does it.

Yet another reason to use colour space transforms rather than LUTs is that LUTs clip any values that are below 0% or above 100%, whereas the colour transforms are able to access and use that data, so it's accessible downstream.

When I'm getting familiar with a camera, or I'm grading shots with a lot of dynamic range I'll often pull the exposure down and see what's in the highlights and pull it up to see what's in the shadows, so that if there's anything relevant then I can grade appropriately.

[IronFilm]

@Jedi Master, I thought the RED Komodo X shouldn't be worth considering for you, as I thought the RED Komodos are "identical" to each other aside from the extra I/O etc features which a professional wants. 

But it seems like the RED Komodo X image might be better as well, cleaner? As this got mentioned in passing during this video:

 

Might be worthwhile for you to investigate?

I'll be working for a couple of weeks soon on a production shooting on the OG Komodo + Komodo X (me as the PSM of course). I'll have a deeper look at them then, and ask bit more about it

[Jedi Master]

Thanks for the link to the video. I’ll take a closer look at the Komodo-X. I wonder, however, if it’s worth $4000 more just for some incremental improvements over the original Komodo?

The Komodo-X is $1000 more than a Canon C300 Mk3, and requires an external monitor, battery, charger, etc., that come in the box with the C300.

What would the Komodo-X offer over a Kinefinity Mavo Mk2 S35 at $4000? 

[Kino]

5 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Thanks for the link to the video. I’ll take a closer look at the Komodo-X. I wonder, however, if it’s worth $4000 more just for some incremental improvements over the original Komodo?

The Komodo-X is $1000 more than a Canon C300 Mk3, and requires an external monitor, battery, charger, etc., that come in the box with the C300.

What would the Komodo-X offer over a Kinefinity Mavo Mk2 S35 at $4000? 

There are people here who have shot with the Komodo 6K and the Komodo-X, so I'm sure they will chime in.

As mentioned above, the Komodo-X has better I/O for professional use and a claimed half-stop advantage in the shadows, which is probably closer to a 1-stop advantage over Komodo 6K. The other main advantages are that it has a 2X faster sensor readout (80FPS in 6K 17x9 vs 40FPS in the Komodo 6K); an upgraded processor for the menu GUI; locking RF mount; mini V-mount battery plate; and an XLR breakout port with better preamps. You can now mount more accessories (e.g., monitor) directly to the camera and so it functions more like a traditional RED camera. The media has also been upgraded to CFexpress B and there are some autofocus updates not available on the Komodo 6K.

I believe it is worth it if you need all these advantages, especially the low light and the higher frame rates, both of which may be useful on a nature doc. However, for the additional $4K over the Komodo 6K, you could simply purchase an FX3 or A7S III and cover those bases. Then, you would have two cameras for the price of one. The one drawback is that the Komodo X also has a strong magenta bias (perhaps to make it more like the V-Raptor 8K S35mm). You can correct it in post, but it shouldn't be there. It is obvious when you compare it to the Komodo 6K and even the Dragon X.

 

In terms of the other cameras you mentioned, the Kinefinity Mavo LF II (FF 6K) is the closest in features and price, but it does have a significant amount of rolling shutter and dealing with their warranty service might be very difficult.

For nature docs, you are probably best off with a Canon or Sony, including the FX6, C70, FX9, and C300 III.

But there is one camera you haven't mentioned, the C500 II, which is now discounted to $11K. That is a serious cinematic machine and punches way above its price:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYM_DvGGhxc

If you watch the Netflix series Madoff: the Monster of Wall Street, you can see the C500 II in action. It looks especially great in Dolby Vision:

 

The one problem with this camera is that it doesn't have 4K 120FPS, if that is important to you. But, if you don't need that feature, then the C500 II is about the best you can do for a new cinema camera in this price range.

[IronFilm]

6 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Thanks for the link to the video. I’ll take a closer look at the Komodo-X. I wonder, however, if it’s worth $4000 more just for some incremental improvements over the original Komodo?

For an aspiring professional DoP? Absolutely 100% is worth it. 

For you? No, I don't think it is worth it. But if there is actually the sensor differences they indicated, perhaps it isn't the slam dunk decision in favor of the cheaper option that I thought it was. 

Anyway, I still think you should go for the RED Komodo OG vs a brand new Epic Dragon X

(but of course in my, somewhat biased opinion, I still think any of many many other options are a better buy than a RED: such as URSA Mini Pro G2 / P6K Pro / Varicam LT / ARRI ALEXA Classic / Sony FX3 / Panasonic BS1H / Kinefinity Mavo / etc )

6 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

What would the Komodo-X offer over a Kinefinity Mavo Mk2 S35 at $4000? 

The "brand name"! haha

  

1 hour ago, Kino said:

The one problem with this camera is that it doesn't have 4K 120FPS, if that is important to you. But, if you don't need that feature, then the C500 II is about the best you can do for a new cinema camera in this price range.

Canon is probably slashing the prices on their C200/C300mk3/C500mk2 because a new RF mount cinema camera is just around the corner from Canon 

[PPNS]

i think anything more than a pocket 4k will be overkill for you

[gt3rs]

3 hours ago, PPNS said:

i think anything more than a pocket 4k will be overkill for you

Why would somebody that seems to have the budget for a cinema camera + cine lenses settle for a 4/3 (imo dead mount), limited DR, poor battery life and no internal ND instead of a C70 / C300 III etc?
He wants to go with cinema lenses so the 4/3 is not the best choice for that. DR seems a factor to me for landscape and internal ND seems useful for that use case, he also wants to stay out very long so the battery is also an issue of the Pocket.

Could he get the job done with a Pocket 4k? Sure.
Is a good choice for him taking in to account that he seems to have the budget and he is passionate? I personally think a better setup would make sense. 

[TomTheDP]

5 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Why would somebody that seems to have the budget for a cinema camera + cine lenses settle for a 4/3 (imo dead mount), limited DR, poor battery life and no internal ND instead of a C70 / C300 III etc?
He wants to go with cinema lenses so the 4/3 is not the best choice for that. DR seems a factor to me for landscape and internal ND seems useful for that use case, he also wants to stay out very long so the battery is also an issue of the Pocket.

Could he get the job done with a Pocket 4k? Sure.
Is a good choice for him taking in to account that he seems to have the budget and he is passionate? I personally think a better setup would make sense. 

The Pocket 4k has good dynamic range. Above 12 stops when using davinci highlight recovery. 

You can mount a small Sony NPF on top the camera and get good battery life pretty easily. Variable ND's are very easy, you can get a magnetic one for quick removal. Variable ND's aren't great for skin tones but he's shooting landscapes. M43 lenses are tiny and cheap, but if he wants he could just get EF mount or something to future proof. 

If you aren't making a lot of money off your cameras it makes little sense to spend $4000+ on it. 

The Pocket 6k Pro is a good compromise though. You can get them for under $2000 used. Battery life is better and the built in screen is really nice. 

Honestly when I am not on set I like to have the smallest camera possible. The FX30 has been great for me. I want it to feel like there is no camera at all. 

On narrative film productions that is when I prefer a cinema body with all the bells and whistles. Carrying anything substantial around when I am doing solo or non paid stuff is a pain in the ass. 

Honestly the FX30 would be a good choice. The image looks great, especially for landscapes. Lens options are cheap and tiny. Good battery life too. The weight of the camera feels like you are carrying nothing. 

[PannySVHS]

Totally agreed @TomTheDP

[Jedi Master]

4 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

If you aren't making a lot of money off your cameras it makes little sense to spend $4000+ on it. 

If video was my profession, I'd agree 100% with you. But it's not my profession and I'm not spending money to make money, just to have fun with it.

My car will do 200 MPH even though the speed limit around here is 65 MPH. Overkill? Yes, but I enjoy driving it despite not being able to use it to its full potential, and because I can afford it. The same principle applies to my choice of camera--I want something I can use and enjoy even if I'll never make a cent with it.

[PPNS]

If this helps, you technically wouldn’t be using the full potential of the pocket 4k either, you would just be wasting less money.

[Jedi Master]

21 minutes ago, PPNS said:

you would just be wasting less money.

Define "wasting".

[TomTheDP]

5 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

If video was my profession, I'd agree 100% with you. But it's not my profession and I'm not spending money to make money, just to have fun with it.

My car will do 200 MPH even though the speed limit around here is 65 MPH. Overkill? Yes, but I enjoy driving it despite not being able to use it to its full potential, and because I can afford it. The same principle applies to my choice of camera--I want something I can use and enjoy even if I'll never make a cent with it.

I partly shoot on an Alexa for work simply because I can and want to. So I get you. Though if you get a bigger camera setup like a C300 or FX9 you may get annoyed with it overtime. It's just bigger and if there is any element of travel involved to what you shoot, the heavier it is the more of an annoyance it is. 
 

[gt3rs]

9 hours ago, PPNS said:

If this helps, you technically wouldn’t be using the full potential of the pocket 4k either, you would just be wasting less money.

Wow are you judging other's skills/craft just by reading their posts?

Just because he does it for hobby it does not mean that he cannot get the best out of his equipment. There are so many great work done by hobbyist and quite a few times better than "pro" that are just lazy and do the minimal work to get the job done...

Pocket 4k is really not a compelling camera in 2023 with so many other better choices. Why if you can easily afford would you pick a Pocket 4k instead of a C70? Again less DR (1.2 stops), no internal NDs, miserable battery life, 4/3 sensor, limited low light capability, and a mount that imo has zero future. 

Imo buying a pocket 4k now is more a waste of money than a C70.

[IronFilm]

19 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Why would somebody that seems to have the budget for a cinema camera + cine lenses settle for a 4/3 (imo dead mount)

1) there is no "settling", the 4/3 sensor (especially a bit larger than average 4/3 sensor, such as in the P4K and GH5S) is quite close to the industry standard S35 

2) the MFT mount is not dead. Both Blackmagic and Panasonic just released this year a couple of fantastic cameras for MFT mount. And of course there are all the other camera companies which have supported MFT mount, such as: OM, Z Cam, DJI, Kinefinity, Chronos, Insta360, Kandao , and more.  And many many more lens manufacturers which have supported the MFT mount! (more so than any other mount)

19 hours ago, gt3rs said:

limited DR

Really good DR you meant to say

19 hours ago, gt3rs said:

poor battery life

Definitely not what I'd describe the P4K as! The original one?? Yeah sure, ok. But still, not even for the OG BMPCC do I think it was the deal breaker people thought it was. As I'd just slap a BP-U30 battery mounted to the top of my BMPCC and I'd be able to shoot for ages and ages. So just do that, and treat the BP-U30 (or NP-F970, or a mini V-lock, or whatever else you prefer) as your "main battery". 

Ditto for the P4K, just think of the internal battery as an awesome feature that allows you to always hot swap the main battery! Nice! 

Or you could get the battery grip and be able to shoot for two hours with that. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1472973-REG/blackmagic_design_grip_ccpoc4k_pg_pocket_cinema_camera_4k.html

(the battery grip for the Pocket 6K Pro allows three hours of shooting: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1625668-REG/blackmagic_design_pocket_cinema_camera_battery.html )

 

19 hours ago, gt3rs said:

and no internal ND instead of a C70 / C300 III etc?

So? Lots of other cameras have been discussed as possibilities in this thread which also don't have an internal ND, such as the RED Dragon X, or Panasonic BS1H. 

 

 

19 hours ago, gt3rs said:

He wants to go with cinema lenses so the 4/3 is not the best choice for that. 

1) basically any cine lens on the planet can be adapted to MFT (well, except maybe a few B4 mount cine lenses which are tricky for that. But it's a far better idea to use B4 cine lenses on a MFT camera than another other modern cine camera!!)

2) there are plenty of great cine lenses purely designed for the MFT mount, such as from DZOFilm, SLR Magic, Kowa, and Meike

19 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Could he get the job done with a Pocket 4k? Sure.
Is a good choice for him taking in to account that he seems to have the budget and he is passionate? I personally think a better setup would make sense. 

 As even you yourself say, the P4K is sufficient. Arguably even more than sufficient. Would a 20 stops of dynamic range 20K resolution camera that has 1 million ISO low light with 18bit raw files truly make a major difference to the images produced? Nope. 

It really puts into perspective that debating over if this camera with 1/2 stop more DR or slightly cleaner shadows is basically a bunch of navel gazing. 

But still, there are lots of different cameras here that are "the right answer" for @Jedi Master, I've myself in this thread advocated for top end premium cameras such as the ARRI ALEXA Classic or Panasonic Varicam LT, and even mildly advocated for the likes of the RED Komodo (although, I don't think it's a great choice, just the best out of the pick at that price point if buying a new RED).

But yet, even the humble BMD P4K (or 6K Pro, or the new Cinema 6K camera with the L Mount, or a Z Cam E2 series camera, or the Panasonic BS1H / S1H) could be a great pick! The ease of use and portability will be benefits when getting the shot. 

And the lower costs shouldn't be overlooked either, that can be put into getting perhaps a bit better lenses than was otherwise planned (I feel this hasn't really been discussed enough, which lenses did you in particular have in mind @Jedi Master? Or at least a lens budget?), or experimenting a bit more with accessories and extras. Perhaps buying a wide range of 4x4 filters to shoot with for instance, having a spare grand or two to put into that could make a real difference. Or splurging on a Sennheiser MKH8030 & MKH8040 for a M/S microphone setup could really make a big difference on the final video. Or getting a few other microphones. Or spending a grand on a weekend trip away to a stunning location to film. 

 

3 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

Imo buying a pocket 4k now is more a waste of money than a C70.

Don't be silly, the Canon C70 would depreciate more in just the first year than the entire purchase price of the P4K!!

[IronFilm]

15 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

Honestly when I am not on set I like to have the smallest camera possible. The FX30 has been great for me. I want it to feel like there is no camera at all. 

On narrative film productions that is when I prefer a cinema body with all the bells and whistles. Carrying anything substantial around when I am doing solo or non paid stuff is a pain in the ass. 

Honestly the FX30 would be a good choice. The image looks great, especially for landscapes. Lens options are cheap and tiny. Good battery life too. The weight of the camera feels like you are carrying nothing. 

Once the Sony FX30 has been around for a couple more years, and I see a lot more of them on eBay at great prices, I think I'll jump on one. 

As it is perfect as a small camera to complement my Sony FS7 / F3 cameras, and if I want to work as an extra camera op on shoots using a FX6/FX9, then me having a FX30 makes sense. 

Thus I can't see Fujifilm, Z Cam, or Canon ever releasing anything which would tempt me away.

RED can't either, a cheaper Komodo can't tempt me, neither could a bargain priced secondhand RED Scarlet MX for US$2K (as I sometimes see them on eBay going for. Wellll... maybe,  if it was a very complete camera package and was available for sale locally. So I didn't have to worry about the costs and risks of shipping / customs / etc. But even so, wouldn't I rather just have a similarly bargained priced Sony PMW-F55??). 

ARRI are still irrationally too expensive for me (after all, I primarily work as a Production Sound Mixer), not even the old ARRI ALEXA Classic is going to be sub US$2K any time soon. Same logic applies to the Panasonic Varicam LT or Sony FX6, as much as I'd like to get either one of them. 

I guess it's quite easy to see a bargain priced Pocket 4K or Panasonic GH5S / BGH1 depreciate to sub US$500 within the next couple of years, in which case I might go with them vs a Sony FX30 which secondhand might still cost double the amount if it's holding up its value still. 

 But yeah, otherwise it's kinda hard for me personally to see a better camera than the Sony FX30. (unless Sony releases something underneath the FX30?? Like a Sony FX300, that can't do 4K 120fps, but is limited to only 4K 30fps?? Yeah, I wouldn't mind being forced to do slow motion in 1080, if it means I can save a bunch of $$$$)

 

[gt3rs]

You guys imo are missing the point , he has the funds and maybe is instead of buying a good drees, smoking 2 packs of cigarettes per day, buy a very expensive car, and so on he wants to buy the best camera that it is in his budget and enjoy it. 

Now if you are saying that the pocket 4k has only 1/2 stop less DR, similar low light, similar functionality and is in the ball pack of a C70 ... then I call myself out of this discussion as then we can say iPhone 15 pro is also in the same ballpark.
Checks real measurements, is more than a stop just for DR! 
Why if I HAVE the money and I could buy a C70/C300 III get  12.8 (tested stops of DR vs 11.6 of the Pocket) and get a nice 4k 120 image settle for something less? It makes no sense. You need to make dept for this the it is a completely other story. 

Again can he achieve the goal with a pocket 4k? Yes.
Can he get a better image and better functionality like onboards NR with other camera that he CAN afford? Absolutely. So why settle to something less great if you have no problem to afford it.

If funny how people judge the skills and "wasting money" for others without knowing them.
I think is fairly rude for @PPNS to tell to someone that he is wasting his money and that for him a pocket 4k is already too much, do you guys know him? Did you guys saw his work and can you guys judge his potential learnings and growth?

On the 4/3 imo is a dead train. Only time will tell who is right.
But why should you use a more expensive FF or S35 cine lens on a smaller sensor. The other option buying 4/3 lenses and then you realize you want to move up to a better camera even within BMD and guess what there are no better cameras with a 4/3 sensor (debatable if the GH6 is). So there we go, what you saved up front you will need to invest in time and effort to resale and hope to get enough back to buy other mounts lenses.
Let's see in a few years who will still produce 4/3 cameras. Actually BMD released in 2023 fantastic cameras NOT with a 4/3 sensors and a couple of entry level studio cameras refresh with 4/3.... in a couple of years I'm ready to bet no more 4/3 from BMD... DJI did not release any 4/3 camera or drone recently, and insta360, Kandao don't sell any 4/3 cameras. 

@IronFilm telling people to buy pocket 4k in 2023 is like me telling people to buy RODE wireless GO (the original one) you will scream at me 🙂 

[PPNS]

lets see your reel @gt3rs

[gt3rs]

23 minutes ago, PPNS said:

lets see your reel @gt3rs

Just search the forum I posted tons of frames over the last few years....
Btw you don't seems to get the point here: why you are judging others skills and needs? This post is the same you want to judge my skills and how arrogant it is. Did I ask yours? No
I'm just saying you seems arrogant in telling others what is enough for them. 

[PPNS]

14 minutes ago, gt3rs said:

Just search the forum I posted tons of frames over the last few years....
Btw you don't seems to get the point here: why you are judging others skills and needs? This post is the same you want to judge my skills and how arrogant it is. Did I ask yours? No
I'm just saying you seems arrogant in telling others what is enough for them. 

you are also doing that (and judging quite poorly imo). i can only find your stills which is why i’m asking for your reel of moving images.

 

i think spending more than 4000 on a camera is a bad decision for people who make money using cameras, so i think that decision is even worse for those who dont do it professionally.

 

Theres literally millions of things in life on which money could be better spent.