Help me decide: Canon C300 Mark III or Sony FX9

[Kino]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:53 PM, IronFilm said:

Canon is probably slashing the prices on their C200/C300mk3/C500mk2 because a new RF mount cinema camera is just around the corner from Canon 

Absolutely, but when will it be here? I mostly have EF lenses, though I may consider the Sony FX9 II if that comes along sooner and has the better features/price. The FX9 already looks great with the in-camera 10 bit:

And, with the RAW expander, it reproduces some beautiful colors:

Sony's advantage is that they don't need to introduce a new mount at this stage and have a better native and 3rd-party lens selection.

[Jedi Master]

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I'd suggest renting/trying a Panasonic S1H or BS1H depending on the form factor that you like.

Now that I've got the ACES workflow more or less under control in Davinci, I went back and redid the S1H footage I downloaded and I like the results. I'd expect the BS1H would produce similar results since it uses the same sensor as the S1H.

Is the L mount used on the BS1H strong enough to support typical cine lenses?

Anyone know if the BS1H can do internal recording using an H.264 codec? The specs on B&H's website indicate it can only do H.265. This is a concern to me as although I have a very capable PC (32 cores, 128GB RAM, beefy Nvidia GPU, and RAID-0 SSDs), H.265 footage plays and scrubs sluggishly in Davinci while H.264 footage is smooth. I'd hate to have to transcode everything before editing it.

 

[IronFilm]

5 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Several have mentioned budgeting for other equipment. I already have most of this covered as I have a nice Sachtler fluid head and tripod, a Zoom sound recorder and Rode shotgun mic, filters, etc. Sure, I could upgrade some of this, particularly the microphone as some suggested, but I think I have most of the basics covered.

Which Sachtler? Some of these cameras, might need that to be upgraded. 

5 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Regarding sound, most of what we record near the camera is unusable due to crowds of people talking, cars passing on the road, wind noise, etc. I end up replacing 95% of recorded sound with music anyway.

You might like to go out for a weekend to focus just on recording good wildlife / landscape / ambience audio for a change? That  you can use with your videos, build up your own little library of sounds. 

And you can definitely do very big upgrades from the Rode NTG2 you have currently. 

5 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

For lenses, I plan to start buying cine lenses in PL mount. I wish I could afford ARRI Signature Primes or Zeiss Supreme Primes, but that's not in the cards. I'm looking more along the lines of the DZO Vespids, so in other works, around $1000-1500 per lens. I'll probably get these in FF even if I end up with a Super35 camera, just to make them a little more future-proof.

Keep in mind, you might want your wide angle lenses to be specific to S35 if that is the format your camera is.  As they'll then be better quality lenses. (but otherwise, your other focal lengths could all be LF instead of S35 if you wish) 

Presuming you like the look of DZOFilm Vespids, then yes, I think that's a good choice. 

You might like to buy it right now, while it is on sale for Black Friday: 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1788748-REG/dzofilm_dzo_vps10pl_vespid_prime_cine_10_lens.html

Although I personally, would go with a set of zooms, as I don't think you need the extra fast aperture of the primes:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1745340-REG/dzofilm_dzo_ffcattaa3_bundle_18_35_35_80_70_135mm_t2_9_catta_ff.html 

And at least from my perspective, it's a faster workflow to use zooms and you'll get better shots because of that. But maybe time matters less for your needs. 

 

5 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

One big want is reliability. I try to buy the most reliable things I can. As a private pilot, I'm especially sensitive to reliability concerns--I've never had to make an engine-out emergency landing on a golf course or highway, and I prefer it that way! I want my camera equipment to be just as reliable.

Well, you should totally rule out an RED then!

But I think you're a little too obsessed on reliability. In your shoes, I wouldn't even mind shooting with the original RED ONE. If you get a good one, without any quirks or issues in its history, then even the RED ONE will perform just fine for ages on many shoots of the sort you want to do without any deal breaker issues. (and the RED ONE is infamous! Of course, I'm not recommending the RED ONE. Just pointing out that even going to that extreme of a choice would be fine here)

Anyway, if you'd go with a RED Dragon X, then certainly a new URSA Mini of any sorts (G2 or 12K or whatever) would be likely even more reliable than the RED. 

But if reliability and only reliability matters, then I'd go with: 

Mint condition secondhand ARRI ALEXA Classic, Panasonic Varicam LT, Sony PMW-F55

Or brand new Sony FX3, FX6, FX9, or Canon C70, C300mk3 or Panasonic S1H / BS1H / S5mk2

But even those famous rock solid workhorses won't be immune to possible problems. Nothing is. 

Anyway, I think with your criteria, I feel your top considerations should be:

Canon C300mk3 or C70 (same sensor inside, might as well get the C70)

Any of the Sony FX series (Sony FX3 or FX6 recording raw to an Ninja V?)

Secondhand ARRI ALEXA Classic (all the negatives of size / weight don't seem to apply to you, and you want to have the experience of owning and operating a premium top of the line professional camera, then naturally ARRI should be at the top of your list as #1!)

Secondhand Panasonic Varicam LT (same point as I just made about the ARRI, except it lacks "the ARRI name", but on paper is the much better camera. I forget why you objected to it, because of P2 cards?? But they're quite affordable to pick up from eBay these days, and you'd still stay way under your budget. And/or you could just record to affordable SSDs via an external recorder) 

Secondhand Sony PMW-F55 with the R7 or R5 recorder (similar point as I just made before about ALEXA and Varicam. Except this is the CineAlta brand name instead)

Panasonic S1H / BS1H recording raw to a Ninja V (it's "a baby Varicam") 

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Also, the audience doesn't know or care what ms the rolling shutter has, but they tend to notice fan blades that are all flooby and/or the feeling of sickness that they get during some handheld scenes.  They also notice it in cars that are all slanted, etc.

OP isn't filming any spinning blades, neither are they doing any wild and crazy hand held footage. 

4 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Most of the third-party EVF's don't have a direct way to attach a battery so now you're also looking at a v mount adapter or similar.  I know my Z Cam EVF doesn't have one and from what I remember, the Portkeys one doesn't either.  Strangely, the cheap cruddy ones that are like a 2" monitor with an eyecup that attaches with magnets DO take batteries...

So what? You're talking about the most completely normal of normal setups here, where you power your monitoring setup (be it a 7" / 10" / whatever on camera monitor, or/and an EVF) via your V Lock. 

4 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

It gets trickier if you want to be able to support usable autofocus!  I can get PDAF with my EF mount lenses on Fuji cameras and Canon RF (and I think the S5 II does it too).  Last I checked, most Nikon AF adapters didn't do that. 

I only cared about stills autofocus on my Nikon DSLRs. As I'm pulling focus by hand when doing video (and on this point, screw drive Nikon lenses feel a lot better to pull manual focus with than modern Canon lenses)

Still, having some DZOFilm lenses would be even nicer... 😄 

4 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Plus everything is weird and backward on Nikon lenses.

From my perspective everything is weird and backwards on Canon lenses 😉

  

3 hours ago, Kino said:

Sony's advantage is that they don't need to introduce a new mount at this stage and have a better native and 3rd-party lens selection.

yeah it really sucks that Canon decided to exclude all other lens manufacturers from using RF Mount (unless they're based in say China, and just don't care about Canon's lawyers coming after them!) 

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Is the L mount used on the BS1H strong enough to support typical cine lenses?

Get a PL to L Mount adapter with a foot on it, and you'll be able to use even the Angenieux Optimo Ultra 12X lens on the BS1H!

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1363501-REG/angenieux_ou12xfp_optimo_ultra_12x_full.html 

For heavy zooms, it is normal to use extra lens support as well:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1554784-REG/smallrig_15mm_lws_universal_lens.html 

Although, with that Optimo zoom, you'd likely be using not 15mm but 19mm rails: 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1076923-REG/wooden_camera_wc_175500_universal_lens_support_19mm_15mm.html 

Anyway, a range of adapters:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Lens-Mount-Adapters/ci/12013/N/4028759365?filters=fct_camera-mount_6854%3Al-mount%2Cfct_lens-mount_6855%3Apl-mount 

You might in particular like these adapters, which have a drop in filter:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Lens-Mount-Adapters/ci/12013/N/4028759365?filters=fct_camera-mount_6854%3Al-mount%2Cfct_features_6856%3Adrop-in-filter-slot%2Cfct_lens-mount_6855%3Apl-mount 

 

2 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Anyone know if the BS1H can do internal recording using an H.264 codec? The specs on B&H's website indicate it can only do H.265. This is a concern to me as although I have a very capable PC (32 cores, 128GB RAM, beefy Nvidia GPU, and RAID-0 SSDs), H.265 footage plays and scrubs sluggishly in Davinci while H.264 footage is smooth. I'd hate to have to transcode everything before editing it.

yes, the BS1H does do H.264 as well

But why not record raw out to the BS1H to a Ninja V?

[IronFilm]

[eatstoomuchjam]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

OP isn't filming any spinning blades, neither are they doing any wild and crazy hand held footage. 

Already addressed in my previous comment.  Stop ignoring the part where I said that wasn't referring specifically to the OP's needs.
 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

So what? You're talking about the most completely normal of normal setups here, where you power your monitoring setup (be it a 7" / 10" / whatever on camera monitor, or/and an EVF) via your V Lock.

Where did I say I was powering anything by v mount?  Also, keep in mind that powering the camera + monitor from the same battery can risk blowing out HDMI ports on a number of cameras due to ground loop issues.  Caution is required.
 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

I only cared about stills autofocus on my Nikon DSLRs. As I'm pulling focus by hand when doing video (and on this point, screw drive Nikon lenses feel a lot better to pull manual focus with than modern Canon lenses)

I manually focus almost everything and then let the robot handle the stuff where it's infeasible.  Director wants a tracking shot with me running in front of the talent?  Can't do it.  Director wants a close-up with shallow DOF and the actor wants to be able to move like a human?  Hope people are into a look where the focus is always about 100-150ms behind the talent moving around.  Multi-camera shoot with only one operator?  I wish I could simultaneously pull focus on two different cameras with left and right hands, but...  nope.
 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

From my perspective everything is weird and backwards on Canon lenses

... and Leica lenses
... and Fuji lenses
... and Sony/Minolta lenses
... and Pentax lenses
... and Panasonic/Olympus lenses
... and Mamiya lenses
... and Hasselblad lenses
... and Cambo lenses
... and Konica lenses
... and Kodak Exacta mount lenses
... and Contax/Zeiss lenses (if I remember right)
How many other manufacturers, other than when making lenses for Nikon cameras, follow the Nikkor focus/aperture directions?  This is why I say that Nikon are backward - I'm not able to remember even a single other vendor who follow them.  😉
 

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

yeah it really sucks that Canon decided to exclude all other lens manufacturers from using RF Mount (unless they're based in say China, and just don't care about Canon's lawyers coming after them!) 

For you with F mount glass and me with me with EF, it doesn't matter too much which lenses anybody is making for RF mount, just so long as there's a nice adapter available.  And if Canon's strategy of locking down the mount backfires, the purchase of a different adapter will allow easy movement to Panasonic, Sony, Nikon, Red, etc.

[eatstoomuchjam]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Presuming you like the look of DZOFilm Vespids, then yes, I think that's a good choice. 

You might like to buy it right now, while it is on sale for Black Friday: 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1788748-REG/dzofilm_dzo_vps10pl_vespid_prime_cine_10_lens.html

Although I personally, would go with a set of zooms, as I don't think you need the extra fast aperture of the primes:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1745340-REG/dzofilm_dzo_ffcattaa3_bundle_18_35_35_80_70_135mm_t2_9_catta_ff.html 

And at least from my perspective, it's a faster workflow to use zooms and you'll get better shots because of that. But maybe time matters less for your needs. 

FWIW, for landscape especially, I would not buy the 10 lens kit.  There's barely a reason at all to own 35, 40, and 50 (unless you want similar focal lengths for a multi-camera shoot and don't want to duplicate).  Between 35 and 50, you can take about 1 small step forward and back.  Between 35 and 40, you can move the tripod a few inches.  😉 

Those zooms seem pretty alright - with only about 2x each, assuming that DZO make a quality product, the quality should be really close to a prime.

Another option if putting out $7-10k for lenses would be the Fujinon MK series - but with the caveat that they're S35-only.  They're really gorgeous, though, and whenever I see one used for a decent price, it takes incredible willpower not to mash the buy button (repeat to self, "I don't have many S35 cameras, I don't have...")

[IronFilm]

28 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

FWIW, for landscape especially, I would not buy the 10 lens kit.  There's barely a reason at all to own 35, 40, and 50 (unless you want similar focal lengths for a multi-camera shoot and don't want to duplicate).  Between 35 and 50, you can take about 1 small step forward and back.  Between 35 and 40, you can move the tripod a few inches.  😉 

Eh, 35mm and 50mm look quite different! It's worthwhile to own both. 

You were attacking me before over if a few milliseconds of rolling shutter in either direction matters when we're in a thread talking about filming landscapes!

And now you think 35 vs 50 doesn't matter?

Feels like very weird priorities to me!

So anyway, I guess OP could get the 8 lens package instead of the 10 lens package:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1679957-REG/dzofilm_dzo_v21k8pli_vespid_prime_cine_8_lens.html

But do they want a macro lens? And now you're left with an awkwardly large gap between 16mm and 25mm! I do not like that at all. So got to buy the 21mm??

If they don't want the Macro, there is the six lens kit:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1602171-REG/dzofilm_dzo_v21a6pl_vespid_6_lens_kit_a.html

But then they'd have to buy themselves individually the 16mm and 21mm

28 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Those zooms seem pretty alright - with only about 2x each, assuming that DZO make a quality product, the quality should be really close to a prime.

Another option if putting out $7-10k for lenses would be the Fujinon MK series - but with the caveat that they're S35-only.  They're really gorgeous, though, and whenever I see one used for a decent price, it takes incredible willpower not to mash the buy button (repeat to self, "I don't have many S35 cameras, I don't have...")

The other caveats:

Mirrorless mount only

No wide angle zoom

[TomTheDP]

16 hours ago, gt3rs said:

You guys imo are missing the point , he has the funds and maybe is instead of buying a good drees, smoking 2 packs of cigarettes per day, buy a very expensive car, and so on he wants to buy the best camera that it is in his budget and enjoy it. 

Now if you are saying that the pocket 4k has only 1/2 stop less DR, similar low light, similar functionality and is in the ball pack of a C70 ... then I call myself out of this discussion as then we can say iPhone 15 pro is also in the same ballpark.
Checks real measurements, is more than a stop just for DR! 
Why if I HAVE the money and I could buy a C70/C300 III get  12.8 (tested stops of DR vs 11.6 of the Pocket) and get a nice 4k 120 image settle for something less? It makes no sense. You need to make dept for this the it is a completely other story. 

Again can he achieve the goal with a pocket 4k? Yes.
Can he get a better image and better functionality like onboards NR with other camera that he CAN afford? Absolutely. So why settle to something less great if you have no problem to afford it.

If funny how people judge the skills and "wasting money" for others without knowing them.
I think is fairly rude for @PPNS to tell to someone that he is wasting his money and that for him a pocket 4k is already too much, do you guys know him? Did you guys saw his work and can you guys judge his potential learnings and growth?

On the 4/3 imo is a dead train. Only time will tell who is right.
But why should you use a more expensive FF or S35 cine lens on a smaller sensor. The other option buying 4/3 lenses and then you realize you want to move up to a better camera even within BMD and guess what there are no better cameras with a 4/3 sensor (debatable if the GH6 is). So there we go, what you saved up front you will need to invest in time and effort to resale and hope to get enough back to buy other mounts lenses.
Let's see in a few years who will still produce 4/3 cameras. Actually BMD released in 2023 fantastic cameras NOT with a 4/3 sensors and a couple of entry level studio cameras refresh with 4/3.... in a couple of years I'm ready to bet no more 4/3 from BMD... DJI did not release any 4/3 camera or drone recently, and insta360, Kandao don't sell any 4/3 cameras. 

@IronFilm telling people to buy pocket 4k in 2023 is like me telling people to buy RODE wireless GO (the original one) you will scream at me 🙂 

The Pocket 4k has BRAW which means you get 1 stops more in the highlights with highlight recovery in Resolve. The Red Komodo does this internally to get its 12.5 stop rating ( a $6000 "cinema" camera). That makes around 12.6 stops for the Pocket. Also the C70 only gets 12.3 stops in RAW, because it has no NR. Again you can get an additional .5 stops or so out of the Pocket with NR. 

The comparison between a RODE wireless GO and the Pocket 4k makes little sense to me. 

Also the Pocket has held its value pretty well over its entire lifetime. Hardly a waste of money. I still see them making money all the time on different projects.

M43 mount is hardly dead. The GH6 just came out with a brand new dual gain sensor, Z-cam is putting out a new global shutter M43 camera with higher dynamic range. Z-cam didn't likely design that sensor, probably made by Sony, which wouldn't be designing and making M43 sensors if there was no demand. 

But it doesn't really matter. If you aren't shooting for clients the camera you have is irrelevant outside of it giving you a usable image, which almost any camera on the market in the past 5 years does. 

Recommending a cheaper camera is not dissing someone's abilities. Award winning films have been shot on a GH2. The Pocket 4k is very capable. 

Anyways the Pocket 4k wouldn't be my choice in camera. Something like an S1H, FX30 would be as they are more run and gun friendly. My reason for not getting something "high end" for hobby uses is not because I don't want to spend money. It's because such tools are inconvenient and annoying for doing anything non work related. But that's me. Maybe you like to move slowly for your hobby uses an a big ass camera rig works for you.

Even a DSLR for photos is annoying, would rather have the smallest APSC or M43 mirrorless option that I can at least sort of fit in my pocket. 

[TomTheDP]

9 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Lots of great discussion, which I find very helpful--thanks guys!

I thought I'd offer some clarification of a few things.

First, let's avoid too much talk about wasting money and motives. As I've said, I'm just a hobbyist and spending $10K on a new camera is not a financial burden at all.

As I originally stated, my main application is scenics. Not necessarily wildlife, except where wildlife happens to be present--we don't go out of our way to shoot birds and other wildlife, hence we have no need for long lenses.

Weight and bulk aren't too big a concern either as most of our work is done close to the car or within a mile of the car. I have a cart that I use to carry things when walking more than a hundred yards from the car. My prior still photography experience is large format, so I'm used to carrying big, bulky things.

Several have mentioned budgeting for other equipment. I already have most of this covered as I have a nice Sachtler fluid head and tripod, a Zoom sound recorder and Rode shotgun mic, filters, etc. Sure, I could upgrade some of this, particularly the microphone as some suggested, but I think I have most of the basics covered.

Regarding sound, most of what we record near the camera is unusable due to crowds of people talking, cars passing on the road, wind noise, etc. I end up replacing 95% of recorded sound with music anyway.

For lenses, I plan to start buying cine lenses in PL mount. I wish I could afford ARRI Signature Primes or Zeiss Supreme Primes, but that's not in the cards. I'm looking more along the lines of the DZO Vespids, so in other works, around $1000-1500 per lens. I'll probably get these in FF even if I end up with a Super35 camera, just to make them a little more future-proof.

One big want is reliability. I try to buy the most reliable things I can. As a private pilot, I'm especially sensitive to reliability concerns--I've never had to make an engine-out emergency landing on a golf course or highway, and I prefer it that way! I want my camera equipment to be just as reliable.

Covering some of the other points people raised:

• Slow motion. Don't need it. I think it looks too cliché in nature videos.
• DR. Yes, important.
• Sharpness. Important.
• Low-light. Somewhat less important. Twilight yes, nightline shooting, no.
• AF. Absolutely not needed.
• TC. Not important.
• Gimbal compatibility. Not important.
• Shallow DOF. Not important. I prefer lots of DOF.
• RAW. I think I'd like having RAW based on experience grading RAW footage I've downloaded.
• Rolling shutter. Not an issue as I shoot on a tripod 100% and do slow pans.
• Battery life. Not a big deal as I'll have spares close by.
• Internal ND. A real plus, but not a dealbreaker. 
• Anamorphic. Nope.

Have you considered a C500 MK2 

6k, Internal ND, Great lowlight performance, great latitude and good dynamic range, internal RAW and 10 bit capability. 

Pretty well designed package that works great for building up or building down, good battery life. 

To me IQ/usability wise it would be the C500 MK2 or the RED Monstro. In that price range they are the top performers. With the Monstro you have to deal with 8k but you have tons of compression options. You're getting better dynamic range and color depth over the C500. Only downside is no internal ND's, probably more expensive media (redmags), and power consumption is higher(though not terrible). 

I see some mentions of the S1H. I think it's a great bang for your buck camera. Great battery life, great sensor. They sell used now for incredibly cheap.

Downsides are the HDMI out latency is terrible, slow rolling shutter, no internal 12 bit/RAW, and color isn't the greatest compared to higher end cameras. Again you can get great images out of it and for a hobby camera it would excel. If you are looking for a more high end experience I just don't think that would be it. In terms of value it is incredible though. 

I might also suggest an ARRI Alexa XT, but that might be too far into the too heavy spectrum. It's quite a beast. 

[gt3rs]

As already suggested by a few of us the C500 II ticks many of your boxes, just keep in mind that the PL mount for C500 II is 1600$ as you plan to use PL lenses and that in a near future there will be a new model with RF mount that is more flexible as you can use adapters for various mounts. I bet it will be 8k FF but more expensive.

Another point is personally for landscape I'm not sure that entry level cinema lenses are better than top of the line photo lenses. 
 

[gt3rs]

3 hours ago, TomTheDP said:

The comparison between a RODE wireless GO and the Pocket 4k makes little sense to me. 
 

This was a joke for @IronFilm as he normally never compromise on audio but tends to find the most economic options for cameras. And it make sense with his profession.

Btw the Swiss state TV, biggest view share in Switzerland, 1.7B USD yearly budget and yet they use tons of RODE GOs and not a single Pocket 4k... so for some professionals GO are good enough but this is a complete off topic.

On the 4/3 the only real force is Olympus, my bet is that Panny will slowly move away and focus on L mount same for BMD, DJI did it already, Insta360, Kando they don't offer any 4/3 anymore and the others are small players. Again only time will tell who is right and who is not.
Is GH6 really having the success of previous versions? I don't think so, the S line is more compelling now so how long they will keep it both?
The safest bet imo today for Camera mount is E mount (Sony) or RF mount (Canon & RED). You get from entry level to top of the line cameras.
The safest bet in lenses is still probably EF, but with the trend of relaying more on AF, adapting EF lenses to non Canon bodies is not always a perfect match. 
Another trend is all the focus breathing compensation, digital optical correction, etc.. that needs lens metadata and compatible profiles, for some will make photo lens more attractive for other is not an important point at all like the OP for example.
One good example is the FF RF 24-105 2.8 power zoom, parfocal thorough AF motors, there is not much in the same category in cine lens and they cost 10x... is not really an apple to apple but is an interesting trend to watch: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1729470-REG/fujinon_600022978_premista_28_100mm_t2_9_pl.html
 

[TomTheDP]

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

This was a joke for @IronFilm as he normally never compromise on audio but tends to find the most economic options for cameras. And it make sense with his profession.
 

Interesting

 

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

On the 4/3 the only real force is Olympus, my bet is that Panny will slowly move away and focus on L mount same for BMD, DJI did it already, Insta360, Kando they don't offer any 4/3 anymore and the others are small players. Again only time will tell who is right and who is not.
Is GH6 really having the success of previous versions? I don't think so, the S line is more compelling now so how long they will keep it both?
The safest bet imo today for Camera mount is E mount (Sony) or RF mount (Canon & RED). You get from entry level to top of the line cameras.
The safest bet in lenses is still probably EF, but with the trend of relaying more on AF, adapting EF lenses to non Canon bodies is not always a perfect match. 
Another trend is all the focus breathing compensation, digital optical correction, etc.. that needs lens metadata and compatible profiles, for some will make photo lens more attractive for other is not an important point at all like the OP for example.
One good example is the FF RF 24-105 2.8 power zoom, parfocal thorough AF motors, there is not much in the same category in cine lens and they cost 10x... is not really an apple to apple but is an interesting trend to watch: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1729470-REG/fujinon_600022978_premista_28_100mm_t2_9_pl.html
 

I am not sure how successful the GH6 was but they are coming out with a G9 II, so they continue to sell M43 cameras. One of the issues with the GH6 was it simply didn't offer enough over other options. If the GH6 was global shutter and had internal RAW or something to separate it from larger sensors it could have been a different story. 

I agree in general M43 is less attractive then 5 years ago. I personally have no gripes with it. I personally wouldn't get an M43 camera simply because there are no options for it in the higher end bracket of cameras. 

 

4 hours ago, gt3rs said:

As already suggested by a few of us the C500 II ticks many of your boxes, just keep in mind that the PL mount for C500 II is 1600$ as you plan to use PL lenses and that in a near future there will be a new model with RF mount that is more flexible as you can use adapters for various mounts. I bet it will be 8k FF but more expensive.

Another point is personally for landscape I'm not sure that entry level cinema lenses are better than top of the line photo lenses. 
 

Good point. I think EF is almost as good an option as PL. You can adapt EF to all mirrorless systems. All higher end cameras (RED, Sony and ARRI) have EF options as well. Something to consider though. There is always a new camera coming out and at least the C500 MK2 has been reduced in price a lot since it's release making it a better value. In general though camera's tend to lose value a lot quickly. 

I think the Monstro is probably a bit more stable price wise as the new replacement for it, the Raptor, has already been out for a minute. 

 

[TomTheDP]

3 hours ago, gt3rs said:

This was a joke for @IronFilm as he normally never compromise on audio but tends to find the most economic options for cameras. And it make sense with his profession.

Btw the Swiss state TV, biggest view share in Switzerland, 1.7B USD yearly budget and yet they use tons of RODE GOs and not a single Pocket 4k... so for some professionals GO are good enough but this is a complete off topic.

 

This really isn't surprising considering camera gets all the attention. I hear constantly from sound mixers that they are never given any luxuries on set or in post. 

[Tim Sewell]

24 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Good point. I think EF is almost as good an option as PL. You can adapt EF to all mirrorless systems.

The only bugbear with this is the lack of aperture control on the lens, meaning you always have to have an active adapter. Also MF is a real pain on virtually all (esp Canon) EF lenses.

[eatstoomuchjam]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Eh, 35mm and 50mm look quite different! It's worthwhile to own both. 

You were attacking me before over if a few milliseconds of rolling shutter in either direction matters when we're in a thread talking about filming landscapes!

And now you think 35 vs 50 doesn't matter?

I'm attacking you over nothing.  I responded to a different person completely who said that there was no difference in most of the cameras being discussed (even outside the context of landscape) with two examples of differences (RS and DR).  You went after RS as not applicable to the OP's concern and I responded that RS was not brought up in response to the OP.  Then you brought it up again and said it wasn't relevant to the OP and I responded again saying that it wasn't brought for the OP, but to the third party who claimed that there was no difference in the image between a P4K and a C70, among other things.

Anyway.  There are obviously small differences in the look of a 35 and 50 for landscapes, particularly in framing things that are close-up, but on full frame, a kit looking something like 20/24/50/(85-100)/200 will be plenty for most things - with optional wider (14-16mm) and longer (400mm).  Otherwise, in the context of many landscape shots, no.  The difference in a 35/40 and a 40/50 (and to some extent, a 35 and a 50) are small and easily compensated by moving forward and back a few feet.  Otherwise, if one wants the very specific control of focal length/perspective, a zoom lens is the most appropriate choice, as a 31 might give more of the desired result than a 34.

 

1 hour ago, TomTheDP said:

Good point. I think EF is almost as good an option as PL. You can adapt EF to all mirrorless systems. All higher end cameras (RED, Sony and ARRI) have EF options as well. Something to consider though. There is always a new camera coming out and at least the C500 MK2 has been reduced in price a lot since it's release making it a better value. In general though camera's tend to lose value a lot quickly. 

All of the love for the C500 has me considering it now instead of the C70 for my trade-in.  Limited to EF mount is a minor bummer, but I would probably just put the 0.71x focal reducer semi-permanently on the C70 anyway...

[TomTheDP]

1 hour ago, Tim Sewell said:

The only bugbear with this is the lack of aperture control on the lens, meaning you always have to have an active adapter. Also MF is a real pain on virtually all (esp Canon) EF lenses.

True though a lot of budget "cinema" lens options have an EF mount option. Even some mid range lenses like the CP3 have an EF mount option. Often times they are swappable so you can switch to PL relatively easily. 

 

38 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

All of the love for the C500 has me considering it now instead of the C70 for my trade-in.  Limited to EF mount is a minor bummer, but I would probably just put the 0.71x focal reducer semi-permanently on the C70 anyway...

I definitely prefer RF mount (or any mirrorless mount) as it just opens up more lens options, particularly vintage ones. The form factor and output options on the C500 are much better but that may not be valuable to you. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

12 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

I definitely prefer RF mount (or any mirrorless mount) as it just opens up more lens options, particularly vintage ones. The form factor and output options on the C500 are much better but that may not be valuable to you.

The C500 has interchangeable mounts which means that I can use almost any non-electronic lens, including vintage ones, if I'm willing to put in the work.  Before Z Cam released their M mount and M43 mounts for the flagship cameras, I measured the mount and built a template to 3d print it.  Then I figured out the right thickness for infinity focus and glued the existing mount adapters.  It worked great.  Printed with PCCF, they'll also take a beating (though I don't know that I'd trust them with the full weight of the camera or heavy lenses).

Anyway, since the mounts are user-swappable on the C500 II, that means creation of an M mount adapter for it should be fairly trivial.  I love my Leicas and sadly, M mount is too short to make a focal reducer for APS-C setups.

Also, the C500 has an optional viewfinder (though that's even more money on top of the still-much-higher cost).  I'll probably stick with the C70 for the still-wider dynamic range, though that may also depend on whether the used shop I'm using for trade-in finishes the evaluation today and then decides to go big with a BF sale.  🙂

[PPNS]

I would still like to see the 2 forum members who were fairly dismissive towards my suggestion their video work or ideally their reels. I’ve seen some stills of Tom’s work and here and he is more than able to produce great images, so I think his opinion is definitely worth reading.

to clarify my suggestion, which imo, I shouldn’t have to do to this extent, my reasoning is simple:

- op was considering an fx9 originally, and i think ironfilm recommended an fx6 at some point.

- We know that the p4k uses a sensor from the same family of sony dual iso options, and that they perform about the same in non raw codecs (and you can easily find that on cined too). 

- braw has a highlight recovery option, which can yield you an extra stop of highlight data, which means its actually better performing than both those (and i can actually speak from experience. Way easier to blow a highlight on an fx6 than a pocket cam). The DR argument is now invalid

- in regards to rolling shutter: from what i’ve read, the p4k performs about the same as the c70 from what ive read. The fx6 performs better, and the rolling shutter on the fx9, which is what op originally considered, performs way worse. so what’s the point of bringing this argument up? 

- what is the point of a bigger sensor if you want more reach and don’t care about super shallow dof on wide angle lenses? Its easier to get those results on mft.

- why are you already thinking about upgrading to different lens mounts? This person might quit within the year? What end result is a potential upgrade going to bring?

 

i dont have any experience with canon cameras. Im sure the c70 is great, but it seems like a waste of money unless you’re a docu DP who already has a bunch of bigger canon cameras and you needed a slightly smaller one as a bcam.