Help me decide: Canon C300 Mark III or Sony FX9

[gt3rs]

37 minutes ago, PPNS said:

I would still like to see the 2 forum members who were fairly dismissive towards my suggestion their video work or ideally their reels. I’ve seen some stills of Tom’s work and here and he is more than able to produce great images, so I think his opinion is definitely worth reading.

Are you serious, on top of dismissing people skills, dismissing what they want to capture, giving advices how people should spend their money, now you are even the judge to whom we should listen and whom not?
You seems fairly recent here, so I'm sorry if I missed your appointment to forum moderator 😁
 

[Jedi Master]

8 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Another point is personally for landscape I'm not sure that entry level cinema lenses are better than top of the line photo lenses. 

Several issues with photo lens: 

• Most have focus-by-wire, which I find extremely annoying.
• Most have very short focus throws.
• Most have no aperture rings and can only set aperture electronically.
• Most have lots of plastic and aren't as robust as cine lenses.
• None have 0.8 MOD focus and aperture gearing.
• Most don't have consistent front diameters across the line.
• Little correction for focus breathing.

[eatstoomuchjam]

Fair criticisms, generally.  Keep in mind that focus-by-wire is not always terrible - the Fuji GF series has an option to set lenses to linear mode and with that, the focus throw is almost annoyingly long.

Also, "most have focus-by-wire" is only somewhat true.  A majority of Canon's EF lenses are not fbw and I think that a lot of F mount autofocus lenses are also not fbw...  and both vendors make plenty of nice metal lenses that are very robust.  Plenty of inexpensive cine lenses are also flimsy plastic.

But of course it's true that almost all of them have electronic aperture and that (almost) none of the lenses have 0.8 gears - and that most of the ways to add gears are cruddy.  The best I've found are some (hard rubber?) slip-on rings that are at least better than the janky adjustable ones that leave a weird pigtail on the lens, but they generate their own problems.

Also, as far as focus breathing, there are also many so-called cine lenses that have a lot of it - so if you're extremely sensitive to it, caveat emptor!

[IronFilm]

21 hours ago, gt3rs said:

This was a joke for @IronFilm as he normally never compromise on audio but tends to find the most economic options for cameras. And it make sense with his profession.

Not at all true, I'll commonly be suggesting mid range to premium grade cameras. Such as FX6 / FX9 / URSA Mini / etc to ALEXA Classic / Varicam LT / etc (when it is appropriate)

The thing though is that there is a much much broader range of camera prices, and the level for "acceptable" reaches down far far lower than for audio.  (such as Unsane and Tangerine, which were shot on an iPhone, yet still used a Sound Mixer with $50K+ worth of audio)

So there is a huge range of pricing with cameras that could be used, while I'm going to bring a pretty much similar audio package to a shoot no matter if it is being filmed on a P4K/FX3/GH6 or FX6/C70/URSA Mini or VENICE/ARRI/Varicam

Prosumer audio recorder will cost about $1K ish, give or take a few hundred. 

Prosumer wireless will cost around $600 ish. 

Professional wireless will cost over $1K per channel for the receivers, and about $1K ish to $3K ish per transmitter

Professional recorders will cost around $5K ish to roughly double that (except for the outlier that is the Aaton Cantar X3, at over $17K)

Professional mics will cost from around $1K ish, to about roughly double that. 

It's a much tight spread in prices than for cameras and lenses. 

 

21 hours ago, gt3rs said:

Btw the Swiss state TV, biggest view share in Switzerland, 1.7B USD yearly budget and yet they use tons of RODE GOs and not a single Pocket 4k... so for some professionals GO are good enough but this is a complete off topic.

It's no secret MSM are some of those feeling the most crushed of crushed budgets. 

But anyway, their sound needs have always been low and basic for many instances of basic reporting. Using for instance just a handheld mic, or a hardwired lav. 

As you've typically got one (maybe two) people talking on camera, mere feet away. With low expectations for audio quality. 

[Tim Sewell]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:41 PM, TomTheDP said:

True though a lot of budget "cinema" lens options have an EF mount option. Even some mid range lenses like the CP3 have an EF mount option. Often times they are swappable so you can switch to PL relatively easily. 

Good point!

[IronFilm]

On 11/23/2023 at 4:41 AM, TomTheDP said:

True though a lot of budget "cinema" lens options have an EF mount option. Even some mid range lenses like the CP3 have an EF mount option. Often times they are swappable so you can switch to PL relatively easily. 

 

But why ever use EF if you have the option for PL????

[PannySVHS]

I am stunned by the awkwardness of this thread, because arguments and suggestions go in a repetition cycle. But nevertheless amusing and interesting. A bit of a nervewracking reading pleasure though.😂 I find a certain kind of cheekyness and joy for ridicule in our replies in the way how specific and overly well written they become, since og poster only wants to pay thousands of dollars on expensive equipment. In this thread we show an urge to please much more than regarding many other requests before.

My suggestion: buy a Red Komodo, because I want to see landscapes and cityscapes filmed with it, because it has dynamic range like a S1H or C70 and because it has internal Redraw, AF and a mirrorless mount, because it's worthwhile to reflect on the results from tech perspective. Or get a C70 and film Raw. Buy it for the same reasons I gave you for the Komodo. Now, go and buy, but don't listen to me, it's your money.😂

[BTM_Pix]

I'd give a nod to the Z8/Z9.

It ticks the boxes you need, the ones you might use the option of if you had them and even the ones that you are absolutely uninterested in that, you never know, you might develop a taste for.

Loads of resolution and frame rate options, internal RAW and ProRes, very respectable rolling shutter and, most importantly, the most flexible lens mount around.

I appreciate you don't have any interest in AF but if you develop one (either out of choice or necessity such as going further with longer lens wildlife imagery) then it is unique in offering near native adapted AF performance of F,EF and E mount lenses and via the TechArt adapter it will even do AF on MF lenses with any mount deeper than Leica M.

So if you change direction from your current needs then the camera can change with you.

With regard to your current needs, EF and PL cine lenses are obviously able to be used with the added bonus that, with it being a very shallow mount, the Meike adapters incorporate variable ND filters.

 

It also has the MC-N10 grip which offers full control including of the virtual zoom function which is very effective in turning primes into par focal zooms or just extending the reach of actual zoom lenses.

Although timecode sync is not on your lists of must haves, the Z8/Z9 have internal support for the UltraSync Blue wireless timecode system that is used in your wife's Zoom F6 so, again, the option is there if you do require easy sync at some point in the future.

Is it a true "cinema" camera when its actually a hybrid ?

Well, its only a hybrid if you actually decide to take stills with it so its each to his own use case really.

Naturally, if you do decide to shoot the odd still with it then it rinses every cinema camera out there at that particular task 😀

As a cinema camera, its an 8K internal RAW and ProRes shooting one with PL mount and in built variable ND filter with wireless TC sync, EVF and tilting screen for under $3700 which is pretty compelling.

It is also a lot more discrete which I suspect might be an advantage if you are shooting urban cityscapes etc.

Anyway, its another option to consider amongst the 37432 different ones offered up in this thread.

For my part, the only thing I regret more than not buying a Z8 when I had the chance in June is not buying one in October when I had another chance.

I will definitely rectify that the next time one comes up !

Good luck with your choice, although I think the fact that there are so many viable options offered up in this thread illustrates that there are very few - if any - wrong choices these days in terms of getting great image quality.

And then turn the internet off.

[Tim Sewell]

Having this morning taken delivery of a used Sony FS7 at an amazing price and in amazing condition, I'm going to throw a spanner in the works and suggest that getting something like that, initially, would give you the opportunity at little cost to find out if you actually enjoy shooting with a cinema style camera. It ticks most, if not all, of your boxes (especially the FS7 II due to the locking mount which would be great for adapting to PL) yet also gives a taste of the differences between hybrid and dedicated ergonomics etc.

[PannySVHS]

Z8 would be an exiting choice indeed, also for me as a nerd as it would allow so much to witness as an audience, Raw magic and all of the above thrilling options which BTM_Pix has mentioned. This thread is stuffed with great insights. I still feel free to smile a bit about the amount of options shown here.:)

[ghostwind]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

I'd give a nod to the Z8/Z9.

It ticks the boxes you need, the ones you might use the option of if you had them and even the ones that you are absolutely uninterested in that, you never know, you might develop a taste for.

Loads of resolution and frame rate options, internal RAW and ProRes, very respectable rolling shutter and, most importantly, the most flexible lens mount around.

I appreciate you don't have any interest in AF but if you develop one (either out of choice or necessity such as going further with longer lens wildlife imagery) then it is unique in offering near native adapted AF performance of F,EF and E mount lenses and via the TechArt adapter it will even do AF on MF lenses with any mount deeper than Leica M.

So if you change direction from your current needs then the camera can change with you.

With regard to your current needs, EF and PL cine lenses are obviously able to be used with the added bonus that, with it being a very shallow mount, the Meike adapters incorporate variable ND filters.

 

It also has the MC-N10 grip which offers full control including of the virtual zoom function which is very effective in turning primes into par focal zooms or just extending the reach of actual zoom lenses.

Although timecode sync is not on your lists of must haves, the Z8/Z9 have internal support for the UltraSync Blue wireless timecode system that is used in your wife's Zoom F6 so, again, the option is there if you do require easy sync at some point in the future.

Is it a true "cinema" camera when its actually a hybrid ?

Well, its only a hybrid if you actually decide to take stills with it so its each to his own use case really.

As a cinema camera, its an 8K internal RAW and ProRes shooting one with PL mount and in built variable ND filter with wireless TC sync, EVF and tilting screen for under $3700 which is pretty compelling.

It is also a lot more discrete which I suspect might be an advantage if you are shooting urban cityscapes etc.

Anyway, its another option to consider amongst the 37432 different ones offered up in this thread.

For my part, the only thing I regret more than not buying a Z8 when I had the chance in June is not buying one in October when I had another chance.

I will definitely rectify that the next time one comes up !

Good luck with your choice, although I think the fact that there are so many viable options offered up in this thread that there are very few - if any - wrong choices these days in terms of getting great image quality.

And then turn the internet off.

 

I just made this post below and saw yours afterward. Maybe you can chime in on my post?

 

 

[TomTheDP]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

But why ever use EF if you have the option for PL????

For me as someone who isn't renting high end cine glass it gives me more lens options. Most vintage lenses can be adapted to EF but very few can be adapted to PL, at least not without really expensive modifications done by pros. If I want to throw on an old FD lens or something like that I'd have to swap the mount from PL to EF, which is time consuming. Now that depends on the camera. Swapping the mounts on a mirrorless system is usually fast. On an ARRI or Blackmagic it is a pain. 

[Jedi Master]

19 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

For me as someone who isn't renting high end cine glass it gives me more lens options. Most vintage lenses can be adapted to EF but very few can be adapted to PL, at least not without really expensive modifications done by pros. If I want to throw on an old FD lens or something like that I'd have to swap the mount from PL to EF, which is time consuming. Now that depends on the camera. Swapping the mounts on a mirrorless system is usually fast. On an ARRI or Blackmagic it is a pain. 

My frontrunner at the moment, the C300 Mk3, is easily switchable between EF and PL. Only four screws. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

If it pushes you over the edge for hitting the buy button on the C300, lensrentals.com has a pretty sweet BF sale - use code KPRBF2023 for 15% off any used gear.  They have a C300 III for $6,240 in "good" condition ($5,340 after code) - which means it probably won't be the prettiest camera on the block, but probably works fine (and they have some sort of return window if it craps out in the first X days).

For the C70 I planned to trade for, MPB didn't get me a final quote back yet and don't seem to be running any BF deals - so I grabbed a C70 in similar condition from 'em along with the 0.71 focal reducer - just about $4k for both ($3900 + tax).  I don't think MPB do any special extra value for trade-in so I'll just have 'em pay me if that's the case.

[TomTheDP]

46 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

My frontrunner at the moment, the C300 Mk3, is easily switchable between EF and PL. Only four screws. 

Yeah it's not bad at all, but still too much when on set. If you are using a Sony FX9 it could be as quick as a lens swap because the you can get adapters that attach the same as a lens. That isn't as secure as a mount that is bolted in though. 

If you aren't using vintage or stills glass it doesn't matter though. 

 

[Jedi Master]

2 minutes ago, TomTheDP said:

Yeah it's not bad at all, but still too much when on set. If you are using a Sony FX9 it could be as quick as a lens swap because the you can get adapters that attach the same as a lens. That isn't as secure as a mount that is bolted in though. 

If you aren't using vintage or stills glass it doesn't matter though. 

 

I won’t be using vintage or stills lenses and I won’t be on a set. It’s just me out in nature with no real time pressures (like a crew waiting on me to change a lens).

[PannySVHS]

Here is a comparison between a FX9 and a Red Scarlet by my favorite camera user and tester of the Sony Cinealta F3, who switched to the FS7 and then upgraded to a FX9. He still holds the colour of the F3 in high regard but for client work he needs 4K. He is from Sweden. Not the only cool camera loving Swede doing great presentations on youtube.:) He makes some interesting points, regarding reliability and usuability and gives a sneak peak into image character and besides, I just love the fellow. 😊

 

[BTM_Pix]

4 hours ago, ghostwind said:

 

I just made this post below and saw yours afterward. Maybe you can chime in on my post?

 

 

Sorry, due to me having a lot of  F mount and to a lesser extent E mount lenses, the Canons have not been under consideration for me so I don’t have any kind of even surface level knowledge of them.

Well, I was involved in the R5 overheating investigation with @Andrew Reid so I’m very familiar with their remote control API but not the image control or hardware UI.

Thankfully, those overheating issues seem to have been resolved and there seem to now be a lot of happy users of them.

[Jedi Master]

On 11/21/2023 at 7:43 PM, IronFilm said:

Which Sachtler? Some of these cameras, might need that to be upgraded. 

I have the Sachtler FSB 6 MK II fluid head and the Sachtler 75/2 carbon fiber legs.

The head's specs say it'll support 17.6 lbs (8 kilos for the Imperially-challenged). The C300 Mk3 is about 6 lbs, and with a 2 lbs cine lens and 1 lbs battery, comes out to around 9 lbs, leaving a margin of around 8.5 lbs.

[Jedi Master]

On 11/22/2023 at 11:08 PM, IronFilm said:

Professional recorders will cost around $5K ish to roughly double that (except for the outlier that is the Aaton Cantar X3, at over $17K)

I didn't realize professional recorders were that expensive. Am I correct in assuming that the higher cost is due to better analog preamps and ADCs, reliability, and ergonomics versus a prosumer recorder like a Zoom? I doubt it's due to the digital audio section as cheap, modern ICs can easily handle 24-bit/192 kHz, which is vast overkill for audio.