Sony A9III with Global Shutter

[Andrew Reid]

https://www.eoshd.com/news/thoughts-on-the-sony-a9-iii-first-global-shutter-mirrorless-camera/

Here's my take on it.

I love it, great camera... But...

a1 is cheaper used, and does 8K at 500Mbit/s 422

The global shutter is capable of 6K at 120fps, but Sony didn't implement any 6K modes, no open gate, or anamorphic, and no Cinema 24p in the image processor. I have heard the image processor is not capable of oversampling at 120fps from 6K-> 4K so the 4K/120fps is likely pixel binned from the 6K. I believe the 4K/59.94/29.97/23.98 are oversampled from that full 6K output.

I like the new grip, looks more comfortable and is to be honest more stylish as well.

Can't really see a use for 120fps stills shooting, it's not a scientific camera.... although it could be used as one!!

[Andrew Reid]

53 minutes ago, androidlad said:

Some of the features not mentioned during the press release but appeared in Chinese marketing material:

• Multi-frame RAW noise-reduction (Combining up to 32 RAW burst stills for one noise-free RAW still)
• Custom LUT import for video
• Lens breathing compensation in video mode

It's expected to ship in China around end of January 2024. Early testers commented on the dynamic range to have taken a "slight but noticeable" hit due to global shutter design, hence the limited native ISO range of 250 to 25600.

Hopefully the multi-frame RAW NR and custom LUT features will make it into future firmware updates for the a1.

Maybe that's the plan with the a9 III as well, not quite ready for release day?

[eatstoomuchjam]

40 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

Can't really see a use for 120fps stills shooting, it's not a scientific camera.... although it could be used as one!!

I think I saw that they're 14-bit raw files and the camera has an option to pre-buffer about 1 second of them.  Depending on how long it can roll after that, I could see using it for high-quality internal raw video (without sound, but some cameras already don't bother recording it when overcranking).  Even if it's only for a second or two, that's enough for some inserts/effects shots.
Since it can also be toggled on mid-shooting, I could see a sports photog assigning it to a button and toggling it at an important moment.

If they can pull off GS with better DR than the Komodo or the ZCam E2-S6G, the camera could be a real winner.  If it's not better than Komodo, I'd expect people to go buy a used Komodo for $4-5k and enjoy internal raw, anamorphic modes, and not having to explain their camera choice to clients.  I was going to get a Komodo until another user sold me a barely-used E2-S6G for half off the new price.

Also, the upcoming E2-M5G could be pretty interesting too - apparently it's both GS and DGS.  Still waiting for some to get out in the field and see some test chart results.

Anyway, it's cool to have a lot of "affordable" GS sensors these days.  It'll be nice when one has enough DR to be used as my A camera - as it is, my S6G gets some use as a B camera and specifically for shots where RS jello is offensive (still need to rig it up to my front bumper to see how it looks when I drive down a bumpy dirt road - footage from the FP is absoutely unusable when doing that)

 

[Django]

Yeah while GS in a FF consumer camera is a nice tech feat, I'm not sure many people will be rushing to "upgrade" to a $6K 24MP/4K h26x camera. Clearly this is a niche action/sports hybrid mainly aimed at still shooters. Sony is smart when it comes to marketing and they put this out just ahead of the Summer Olympics.

But in reality for video shooters if you absolutely need a GS cine cam, the Komodo already exists and does up to 6K with ProRes/REDcode etc. 

And for your average hybrid shooter, I doubt they would really notice the difference with the already fast 8ms RS of the A7S3/FX3. And those have better DR & low-light for half the price. 

Personally, I find the Z8/Z9 are still much better rounded hybrid packages with 8K60p, RAW/ProRes, 45MP. And fast stacked sensor readout speeds that are sufficient for most demanding situations. 

Don't get me wrong, FF GS is a major tech accomplishment and I'm sure there is a market for the A9iii, I just don't think the entire package and price point is going to be that enticing in the already crowded FF segment once the hype does down.

[Kino]

29 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I think I saw that they're 14-bit raw files and the camera has an option to pre-buffer about 1 second of them.  Depending on how long it can roll after that, I could see using it for high-quality internal raw video (without sound, but some cameras already don't bother recording it when overcranking).  Even if it's only for a second or two, that's enough for some inserts/effects shots.
Since it can also be toggled on mid-shooting, I could see a sports photog assigning it to a button and toggling it at an important moment.

If they can pull off GS with better DR than the Komodo or the ZCam E2-S6G, the camera could be a real winner.  If it's not better than Komodo, I'd expect people to go buy a used Komodo for $4-5k and enjoy internal raw, anamorphic modes, and not having to explain their camera choice to clients.  I was going to get a Komodo until another user sold me a barely-used E2-S6G for half off the new price.

Also, the upcoming E2-M5G could be pretty interesting too - apparently it's both GS and DGS.  Still waiting for some to get out in the field and see some test chart results.

Anyway, it's cool to have a lot of "affordable" GS sensors these days.  It'll be nice when one has enough DR to be used as my A camera - as it is, my S6G gets some use as a B camera and specifically for shots where RS jello is offensive (still need to rig it up to my front bumper to see how it looks when I drive down a bumpy dirt road - footage from the FP is absoutely unusable when doing that)

 

The promo piece includes short RAW bursts that are rendered as video:

[ND64]

48 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I saw that they're 14-bit raw

I believe 120 mode is 12 bit.

[Llaasseerr]

I wonder if you can shoot raw stills at 24p or even 48p indefinitely.

[Andrew Reid]

The way to fix any dynamic range shortcoming with global shutter is to use multiple frame HDR RAW like a phone. 120fps at full resolution is easily enough to enable 6 or 7 frames, merged into one, without a noticeable hit in terms of shutter lag, or processing time

[androidlad]

57 minutes ago, Eric Calabros said:

I believe 120 mode is 12 bit.

No. 14bit. 6GB/s data rate.

Even video mode readout is also 14bit.

[sanveer]

Interesting sensor, even more than Interesting camera.

Sony will probably put in the next version of the Venice and price it similarly to the new Alexa35. Even with the reduced dynamic range. 

Also, suddenly, I am very curious, can Sony make a 2-Layer Transistor Pixel technology sensor with GS, finally solving issues with the dynamic range.  @androidlad do you know any such sensor in the offing? 

[ND64]

3 minutes ago, sanveer said:

Sony will probably put in the next version of the Venice and price it similarly to the new Alexa35. Even with the reduced dynamic range. 

Whats the "real" benefit for cinematography? With conventional stacked sensor, there is no distortion even in wild panning, like Venice 2 with its 3ms read out speed. Alexa35 has "useable" 15 stop of DR. Thats where DPs see the benefit. 

[MrSMW]

8 hours ago, Django said:

Personally, I find the Z8/Z9 are still much better rounded hybrid packages with 8K60p, RAW/ProRes, 45MP. And fast stacked sensor readout speeds that are sufficient for most demanding situations. 

Ditto, or my favourite camera of this current crop, the Canon R3. Waaaaay too much money to switch to a Canon based system, but right now, I would if it was possible.

For my needs with Sony, I'd take the A7RV over this new A9III, but then I am probably not the target market...

An A7RV along with an FX3 and an FX30...and I looked hard at it, but decided against.

I suppose there has to be progress and every manufacturer needs to bring out ever higher capable tools, but we're already at peak camera for me.

The only caveat with 'peak camera' for me, the 'peak' part is spread over several bodies and not all in the same camera 🤔🤪

[kye]

2 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Whats the "real" benefit for cinematography? With conventional stacked sensor, there is no distortion even in wild panning, like Venice 2 with its 3ms read out speed. Alexa35 has "useable" 15 stop of DR. Thats where DPs see the benefit. 

I've heard people say that film has rolling-shutter-like behaviour from the rotating shutter and isn't a true global shutter, but it's just that the RS was very fast and so wasn't noticeable in almost all situations.

https://cinematography.com/index.php?/forums/topic/53119-why-no-rolling-shutter-on-film-cameras/&do=findComment&comment=357346

[sanveer]

4 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

Whats the "real" benefit for cinematography? With conventional stacked sensor, there is no distortion even in wild panning, like Venice 2 with its 3ms read out speed. Alexa35 has "useable" 15 stop of DR. Thats where DPs see the benefit. 

They'll find cinematographers who pan cameras around continuously, until audiences feel nauseatic. Then mentioned the absence of rolling shutter. Cinematography be damned 😎

[Django]

"Global Shutter" kind of feels like a buzzword from Sony marketing doesn't it? And the usual suspects on Youtube sure are running with it.. "FIRST GLOBAL SHUTTER CAMERA" "This Changes EVERYTHING". "ZERO DISTORTION!!!". I mean cmon if you wanted to avoid distortion up until now as a stills shooter you could simply use mechanical shutter. And yeah 99% of cinematographers use CMOS sensor based cameras with minimal RS. 

Again not trying to downplay the tech advancement of this new sensor but it ain't really the game changer revolution it is hyped up to be. The read-out speed sure seems incredible but I personally can't imagine combing through 120fps of RAW images. I'm not even sure pro sporting events shooters have that luxury in their time race with FTP transfers. So who exactly is the A9 target? Wealthy amateurs that shoot birds/golf/tennis? Videographers doing 360 degree rotations at 100mph? Serious question.

[Ilkka Nissila]

1 minute ago, Django said:

"Global Shutter" kind of feels like a buzzword from Sony marketing doesn't it? And the usual suspects on Youtube sure are running with it.. "FIRST GLOBAL SHUTTER CAMERA" "This Changes EVERYTHING". "ZERO DISTORTION!!!". I mean cmon if you wanted to avoid distortion up until now as a stills shooter you could simply use mechanical shutter. And yeah 99% of cinematographers use CMOS sensor based cameras with minimal RS. 

Again not trying to downplay the tech advancement of this new sensor but it ain't really the game changer revolution it is hyped up to be. The read-out speed sure seems incredible but I personally can't imagine combing through 120fps of RAW images. I'm not even sure pro sporting events shooters have that luxury in their time race with FTP transfers. So who exactly is the A9 target? Wealthy amateurs that shoot birds/golf/tennis? Videographers doing 360 degree rotations at 100mph? Serious question.

Mechanical (focal plane) shutter produces some rolling shutter. You can see it e.g. if photographing a propeller plane or helicopter at fast shutter speeds. You can also see it when there is artificial light that flickers, in the past the advice was to use a slow shutter speed to avoid the banding from fluorescent lights; today the lights are often LED based but still there are circumstances where the lights or screens show banding even when photographing with mechanical shutter. The GS eliminates this problem. I would think that photojournalists, sports and music photographers would like it, but it's a pricey camera for sure.

Golf, yes, quite likely there even the fastest rolling shutter would show distortion, and the club swings quite fast so you can get some interesting timings at 120 fps or 240 fps. But those are kind of special applications. I guess specialists who work on these kind of sports with very fast motion would get it.

[MrSMW]

7 minutes ago, Django said:

Wealthy amateurs that shoot birds/golf/tennis?

2/3 right here:

[Ilkka Nissila]

11 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

The way to fix any dynamic range shortcoming with global shutter is to use multiple frame HDR RAW like a phone. 120fps at full resolution is easily enough to enable 6 or 7 frames, merged into one, without a noticeable hit in terms of shutter lag, or processing time

It doesn't quite work like that. If you shoot a sequence at 120 fps & 1/240s with the GS camera, and compare the results after processing (by taking the images and processing them to reduce noise) to native RS camera at 24 fps, 1/48s, then the latter will still have more dynamic range (unless an ND filter was needed to get the slow shutter speed in too bright light).

 

Phone cameras get away with a lot of stuff, including somehow merging the images even in the presence of moving parts in the image by algorithms only because the images are viewed as a tiny part of the human visual field so the imperfect guesses by the AI don't bother us as much as they would if they were shown on large screens. The images often look unnatural and fake to those who are experienced in looking at actual photographs, though.

[ND64]

32 minutes ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

Phone cameras get away with a lot of stuff

I think newer AI tech is adding stuff to the data. Its like tracing the moving part, and "guess" how it would look like if it weren't where it is. 

[kye]

1 hour ago, Django said:

"Global Shutter" kind of feels like a buzzword from Sony marketing doesn't it? And the usual suspects on Youtube sure are running with it.. "FIRST GLOBAL SHUTTER CAMERA" "This Changes EVERYTHING". "ZERO DISTORTION!!!". I mean cmon if you wanted to avoid distortion up until now as a stills shooter you could simply use mechanical shutter. And yeah 99% of cinematographers use CMOS sensor based cameras with minimal RS. 

Again not trying to downplay the tech advancement of this new sensor but it ain't really the game changer revolution it is hyped up to be. The read-out speed sure seems incredible but I personally can't imagine combing through 120fps of RAW images. I'm not even sure pro sporting events shooters have that luxury in their time race with FTP transfers. So who exactly is the A9 target? Wealthy amateurs that shoot birds/golf/tennis? Videographers doing 360 degree rotations at 100mph? Serious question.

I can imagine wildlife photographers would get a lot of use from it considering that they take a long time to shoot (e.g. waiting in animal blinds etc), they have a long time in post to select the right shots, they aren't under super time deadlines to get images to a publisher, and the difference between a good image and a great one can simply be a matter of perfect timing and if you get it right there's huge rewards.

Obviously this is very different the workflows of sports photographers etc.

This photo and the story behind this shot comes to mind:

https://www.wired.com/2016/01/alan-mcfadyen-kingfisher-dive/

I would imagine that there might be a lot of subjects where having an insane fps on the burst mode would enable you to line things up perfectly in a shot and really elevate it in a significant way.  Street photographers would also benefit, with the decisive moment and all that, but they probably don't need burst modes this crazy fast.

However, having said all that, it's a pretty niche application for an entire camera, so I can't see that being worth designing a camera around.