New Insta360 action camera on 21st Nov

[gt3rs]

21 minutes ago, sanveer said:

I'm guessing that they would probably bring 10-bit along with the log profile by way of a firmware update.

In their older cameras that I have (GO2, RS, 1 Inch) they have Log profile but is 8bit only and not particularly great. So not sure I would count on it. It would be great.

The 8k 24 is a strange story as apparently reviewers are not allowed to post 8k 24, only one so far did it.

Looking forward to see some real work and not these YT reviewers madness.

[Emanuel]

Well, this one doesn't look to fit in the category... ; )

 

This one isn't bad either : -)

 

[Emanuel]

This is (1st example) to those who still doubt on the resolution factor... No surprise, helps.

...and (2nd one) from some other source:

 

[markr041]

Suddenly, 8bit REC709 is ok (5-6 stops of dynamic range). Yes, get exposure right and keep away from high contrast scenes (a nice cloudy day) and the image will be ok. Of course, only the "uninformed" will think this is a limitation according to our resident colorist.  

But seriously? action at 24 fps and high shutter speeds? Good for shooting a flower pot, but please nobody move, fast.

Is this GoPro hate going on?

Anyway, the DJI Pocket 3 blows this nice try away - better stabilization, 4K 60P and much better real low-light performance with its large pixels - no need for high shutter speeds at night for stabilization. And, at night the dynamic range is enormous, cannot be captured by REC709 DR. Really, REC709 only?

"Action" cam - a joke.

Btw, my cell phone shoots 8K 24p, and on a cloudy day, it's not so bad. Had to minimize the distraction of using any camera.

No need for this compromised extra camera.

[Emanuel]

19 minutes ago, markr041 said:

Suddenly, 8bit REC709 is ok (5-6 stops of dynamic range). Yes, get exposure right and keep away from high contrast scenes (a nice cloudy day) and the image will be ok. Of course, only the "uninformed" will think this is a limitation according to our resident colorist.  

But seriously? action at 24 fps and high shutter speeds? Good for shooting a flower pot, but please nobody move, fast.

Is this GoPro hate going on?

Anyway, the DJI Pocket 3 blows this nice try away - better stabilization, 4K 60P and much better real low-light performance with its large pixels - no need for high shutter speeds at night for stabilization. And, at night the dynamic range is enormous, cannot be captured by REC709 DR. Really, REC709 only?

"Action" cam - a joke.

Btw, my cell phone shoots 8K 24p, and on a cloudy day, it's not so bad. Had to minimize the distraction of using any camera.

No need for this compromised extra camera.

What cell phone BTW?

No hate for GoPro, I love their yearly updates and market value -- the easiest camera I've ever had the chance to resell it, so why should I? TBH much easier than Insta360! I am talking from my real experience with : )

Yeah, Osmo Pocket 3 is my fav on small size but one brings some complement to each other (go with Osmo as action device and will become a crash cam all of a sudden : D) so I don't think we'd rather pull the trigger on the Hero 12 over the Ace Pro because no matter how much we can complain on 8-bit, the results are out there and they speak volumes on plain real world, that's what counts in the end ; )

Why only high shutter speeds? Not manual exposure there?

[markr041]

38 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

What cell phone BTW?

No hate for GoPro, I love their yearly updates and market value -- the easiest camera I've ever had the chance to resell it, so why should I? TBH much easier than Insta360! I am talking from my real experience with : )

Yeah, Osmo Pocket 3 is my fav on small size but one brings some complement to each other (go with Osmo as action device and will become a crash cam all of a sudden : D) so I don't think we'd rather pull the trigger on the Hero 12 over the Ace Pro because no matter how much we can complain on 8-bit, the results are out there and they speak volumes on plain real world, that's what counts in the end ; )

Why only high shutter speeds? Not manual exposure there?

No iris. The only way to control exposure is with shutter speed. Bright sun = high shutter speeds.

Digital stabilization in any light = high shutter speeds.

I agree video examples trump talk, but one needs the right examples.

The "plain" real world in the videos I saw were not bright light and not high dynamic range. And some had no important movement - a resolution chart! Leaves on the ground, not blowing in the wind.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, markr041 said:

No iris. The only way to control exposure is with shutter speed. Bright sun = high shutter speeds.

Digital stabilization in any light = high shutter speeds.

I agree video examples trump talk, but one needs the right examples.

The "plain" real world in the videos I saw were not bright light and not high dynamic range. And some had no important movement - a resolution chart! Leaves on the ground, not blowing in the wind.

No NDs?

[markr041]

6 hours ago, Emanuel said:

No NDs?

Well, no screw-in ND's for sure. I do not see any magnetic ones working. And there is no replaceable lens cover like a GoPro has that enables screw-on ND's. 

But, really, putting ND's on this is inconvenient at best if there is ever a possibility.

And ND's are not a solution for the high shutter speeds that are required for digital stabilization. 

Shooting at 60P solves the motion problem for the Pocket 3 and the Hero 12. Not a solution for this wannabe action cam at the only resolution worth using on it.  

I still do not get the enthusiasm for this thing. Let's repeat - inferior dynamic range, by a lot, to the Pocket 3 and the Hero 12, inferior stabilization to both, and the 8K 24P without the ability to hold down shutter speeds makes this spec almost worthless for serious video. And your cellphone probably can do that anyway, with superior AI trickery. My Samsung Fold 4, for example.

But maybe I am just among the "uniformed" that our biggest-poster armchair colorist says - 8bit REC709 video is what all Pro's think is ideal, all of whom know that 24P is the only acceptable frame rate and the 180 rule is a myth.

Btw, I get a commission for every insta360 Ace Pro NOT purchased.

[kye]

Thanks for the promotion to colourist @markr041!

It seems like we need to get a handle on what the relative strengths and weaknesses are across the options.  Certainly, lower DR in a camera used to record outdoors in uncontrolled conditions with a wide-angle lens likely to have the sun in-shot is a long way from the ideal situation...   and just for your information, I am currently revising my setup to include a second camera to my GX85 because I want something with more DR for exactly these reasons.

Realistically it's going to depend on what you're shooting and how that aligns with the relative strengths/weaknesses of the different models.

So far we have what...   iPhone 15, GoPro 12, Insta360 Ace (Pro), DJI Osmo Pocket 3, and DJI Osmo Action.  Are there others in this fixed-lens / super-compact / small-sensor market segment?

[ND64]

Thanks to you guys I don't click on YouTube links to consume 15 minutes of bad journalism. I'm deeply grateful. 

[gt3rs]

17 hours ago, markr041 said:

Well, no screw-in ND's for sure. I do not see any magnetic ones working. And there is no replaceable lens cover like a GoPro has that enables screw-on ND's. 

But, really, putting ND's on this is inconvenient at best if there is ever a possibility.

And ND's are not a solution for the high shutter speeds that are required for digital stabilization. 

 

Official NDs filters
https://store.insta360.com/product/ace-pro-nd-filter-set?c=2649&from=accessory

For example motorsports (Cars, Buggy, etc) applications is where you want to disable digital stabilization and add ND filter. Nothing worse than stabilization correcting the car movements and lack of motion blur.

Inferior DR did you see a scientific test that measure the stops, if yes can you please post it as I'm curious.

You seem to be very knowledgeable but your examples that you post are not what I would call "action" so not sure that claiming that this is not an action cam feels right.

In between the avalanche of useless YT review there are some pieces that show the potential of the camera.

From what I could see so far:

Gopro 12

+ 10 bit log
+ MAX LENS MOD (this for POV makes a big difference)
+ integrated mounting
+ a bit lighter
+ replaceable lens
+ 2.7k 240
+ a bit better stabilization

Insta360 Ace Pro

+ overall, it seems a bit better image quality.
+ low light
+ 2x "lossless crop"
+ 8k 24 (wish was at least 25)
+ better software
+ stats from Apple Watch
+ HDR mode seems more usable.

In daylight it seems to me that the RS 1inch is still the best one and is now quite old. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

The RS 1" is so good.  If I knew they'd stop making the 1" modules, I'd have bought a couple more.

(Also, I have one modded by Back-Bone with a passive M43 mount and while I've not shoot anything useful with it, it's one of the most fun cameras that I own - 5.7k with a 1" sensor with a telephoto lens?  That's crazy fun - just wish there were a better option for focusing - either an external screen or letting me hardwire my iPhone to the USB port (maybe the RS supports iPhone?  Mine still has the original R brain))

[kye]

Here's a BTS and sample footage of a music video shot on the Pro model...  

It shows some temporal NR ghosting in this footage (which admittedly is a bit of a torture test in this regard) but still worth noting (linked to timestamp):

 

[Emanuel]

WOW Love this thing, it is what GoP-r-o is not. Period.

 

Disclaimer -- You have never heard me to bash GoPro : ) BTW I've always admired such good fellow I've been in touch with, David's (Newman) contribution to this industry since Slumdog Millionaire mostly shot based on CineForm codec (both acquisition/workflow) FYI to those who don't know:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CineForm

https://shotonwhat.com/slumdog-millionaire-2008

https://gopro.com/pt/pt/news/gopro-leading-activity-image-capture-company-acquires-award-winning-video-compression-software-company-cineform-inc

[markr041]

Let's have a serious discussion of dynamic range and other issues.

We all agree that REC709 has very limited dynamic range on any camera, yes?

We all agree, that for the same sensor, a log gamma with 10bit color permits a higher dynamic range than REC709, yes?

This GoPro wannabe is limited to rec709 dynamic range, right?

And the GoPro Hero 12 has a log gamma and 10bit color that extends the dynamic range beyond REC709, right?

So, what do we conclude about the dynamic range difference between this ACE "PRO" and the Hero 12?

And do we dismiss the 10bit color and 8bit color difference also? 

There is no possibility of real HDR video, you know the ones supported by TV's and streaming services (like HDR10, not the "HDR mode"), with the "PRO". You can produce true HDR video with the Hero 12 (it has an extended color gamut and 10bit and log gamma).

Now, as to "action": I maintain, to which we all do NOT agree for some reason, that 24 fps is an inappropriate frame rate for any movement, including walking with the camera. So, 8K 24p is not useful for action, although in a pinch it is not terrible (As I showed with my cell phone video, with plenty of action if anyone actually viewed it, including drone flights). Any full body motion is action. 24p emulates film, and we all put up with the odd motion it displays as part of the separation from reality that film gives us (so I am not dissing 24p in general).

But 24p is not what we want for depicting sports. If you like 8K 24p, use your cell phone.

Btw, a colleague has a good use for 8K 24p: shooting classical concerts. He can zoom in post and he can take advantage of the lower shutter speeds for the low light, and there is very little movement (action). It's not action, but it is a good use, though it does not use the stabilization or waterproofness). I heartily endorsed his purchases of the "PRO."

Any comparisons of "image quality" based on posted videos is meaningless - all the non REC709 Hero 12 videos are color graded, so if you do not like the images, that is on the user.

Relatedly, no actual professional videographers I know shoot using only action cams. They mingle action cam shots with their normal camera clips. Thus, what is essential is the ability to match the action and regular shots. This requires a lot of manipulation in post, for which we all agree (I think) 10bit color and log gammas are useful. So, an "action" cam stuck in 8bit REC709 is not for my colleagues.

[Emanuel]

You know what? I don't care much for specs but what my eyes tell me and this is the best action cam today, no doubts on that one : ) Is it limited? Yes, still stands the same : ) I yet love 24 fps with movement, oh yeah! :- )

[markr041]

14 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

You know what? I don't care much for specs but what my eyes tell me and this is the best action cam today, no doubts on that one : ) Is it limited? Yes, still stands the same : ) I yet love 24 fps with movement, oh yeah! :- )

I can't argue with subjective opinions, to which you are certainly entitled!

[Emanuel]

14 minutes ago, markr041 said:

I can't argue with subjective opinions, to which you are certainly entitled!

LOL You look like a tough poster as you probably already know but in the end, you're one of the most valuable contributors with your real footage posted over these pages... You know something?

I'd like to see your tests as you've usually offered us every time there's a new one just arriving to the town.

Pity my subjective entries on this one don't incentivate you to go and bring us your street videography on low light shots BTW as usual coming from your NY walks.

Osmo Pocket 3 is also welcome, speaking of devil : )

As well, your thoughts on your findings to compare the most sainted trinity to my view nowadays:

Z8 (you already have) / Osmo Pocket 3 / Ace Pro :- )

[Emanuel]

* I meant incentivize, don't pay attention to my English, only to the range of my attempt to let you have enthusiasm on my subjective scope... it would be a pleasure to see it! : )

This is one of fewer recent releases to push me to irrationally buy anything just for the pleasure to test low light on such small size factor :- )

A dream come true along the Osmo Pocket 3 in fact... Decades of waiting! : X

[zlfan]

On 11/27/2023 at 3:45 PM, kye said:

Thanks for the promotion to colourist @markr041!

It seems like we need to get a handle on what the relative strengths and weaknesses are across the options.  Certainly, lower DR in a camera used to record outdoors in uncontrolled conditions with a wide-angle lens likely to have the sun in-shot is a long way from the ideal situation...   and just for your information, I am currently revising my setup to include a second camera to my GX85 because I want something with more DR for exactly these reasons.

Realistically it's going to depend on what you're shooting and how that aligns with the relative strengths/weaknesses of the different models.

So far we have what...   iPhone 15, GoPro 12, Insta360 Ace (Pro), DJI Osmo Pocket 3, and DJI Osmo Action.  Are there others in this fixed-lens / super-compact / small-sensor market segment?

I think that GP may go 1 inch or larger, but only under the extreme pressure of Insta360 and DJI and iphone, etc. The major concern is that the af is much harder than 1/1.9 inch. 

I highly hope that either Panny or Oly comes out with a small form factor u3/4 cam like Sony RX0 ii, but can do 6k to 8k 10 bit log open gate, great ibis and video af, like s5 iix or g9 ii or om1.