New Insta360 action camera on 21st Nov

[markr041]

Here is another third-party video using this wannabe camera. What is useful here is unlike the influencer video from the gimbal guy in which each shot is about 1 second so you don't get a chance to inspect, this one has longer takes.

The daytime 4K looks pretty good, the nighttime static shots look soft. And when he moves with the camera, the nighttime video looks truly awful, just as expected - you cannot use digital stabilization in low light and move. This camera has not defied the laws of physics; it does not matter the size of the sensor, the problem is digital stabilization.

Anyway, here is the video:

Nighttime moving at 6.25.

[kye]

8 hours ago, markr041 said:

We all agree that REC709 has very limited dynamic range on any camera, yes?

Not all.  The Canon XC10 included the whole sensor DR in its standard profile.  I really wish that other camera companies would adopt this practice, but unfortunately they don't.

https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s17.pdf

8 hours ago, markr041 said:

We all agree, that for the same sensor, a log gamma with 10bit color permits a higher dynamic range than REC709, yes?

Don't confuse the bit-depth with DR, they're independent variables.  You can take an ARRI Alexa image and make it 4-bit if you like, and that doesn't radically reduce the DR.

8 hours ago, markr041 said:

Now, as to "action": I maintain, to which we all do NOT agree for some reason, that 24 fps is an inappropriate frame rate for any movement, including walking with the camera. So, 8K 24p is not useful for action, although in a pinch it is not terrible (As I showed with my cell phone video, with plenty of action if anyone actually viewed it, including drone flights). Any full body motion is action. 24p emulates film, and we all put up with the odd motion it displays as part of the separation from reality that film gives us (so I am not dissing 24p in general).

You're confusing a bunch of things.

I personally absolutely HATE the look of 60p.  I am so sensitive to this look now that 30p also looks pretty awful to me.  It looks far less like reality than 24p does, 60p/30p look like hyper-reality, like how reality would look if I was part robot living in the year 3000 after I'd taken my smart drugs for the day.  I don't know why they look like this, but they do.

If you analyse all the variables involved then you become aware that 24p and 60p are both significantly different to how reality looks to our eyes, they are just making different trade-offs, and neither one is more 'correct' than the other.  The errors of 24p are just less offensive than those of 60p to me, and many others too.

I can understand that watching sports in 60p is useful because there are quick motions of the ball etc, so it's great for making things obvious, but it doesn't look real.  Oddly, when playing video games, 60p / 120p / 240p don't have the same look to me as video.  Maybe it's to do with interacting vs passively watching, I'm not sure.  Maybe it's that games are artificial and so the artificial look of those frame rates doesn't clash with the aesthetic.

I understand that you like the look of 60p and you want to make things look like reality, but that's not what everyone wants.

9 hours ago, markr041 said:

So, an "action" cam stuck in 8bit REC709 is not for my colleagues.

Cool.

9 hours ago, markr041 said:

Any comparisons of "image quality" based on posted videos is meaningless - all the non REC709 Hero 12 videos are color graded, so if you do not like the images, that is on the user.

If we promise to never say a bad word against the mighty and perfect GoPro will you promise not to come and tell us off for blaspheming? 

Seriously though, the sooner you accept that not everyone wants what you want, shoots what you shoot, shoots how you shoot, the sooner you'll be able to discuss things rather than always argue with people.

[kye]

4 hours ago, zlfan said:

I think that GP may go 1 inch or larger, but only under the extreme pressure of Insta360 and DJI and iphone, etc. The major concern is that the af is much harder than 1/1.9 inch. 

I highly hope that either Panny or Oly comes out with a small form factor u3/4 cam like Sony RX0 ii, but can do 6k to 8k 10 bit log open gate, great ibis and video af, like s5 iix or g9 ii or om1.  

I thought that GoPro models are fixed focus?  and were in-focus between about 30cm and infinity?  Going to a larger sensor size might mean they'd have to include AF, which would be a significant change over a fixed focus approach.

Still, it would be good to get a larger sensor, as that would improve low-light performance etc.  The size of the camera is a variable to watch though.

I thought that the RX0 was a really interesting camera and that despite Sony telling everyone it wasn't an action camera and not to review it like that, mostly people were too stupid to take that advice and so it was largely mis-understood and not really utilised for its potential.  Unfortunately it had many of the normal Sony weaknesses including overheating.

It would be really interesting to see what Panny or Oly would do with a similar form-factor, but based on the poor understanding of the RX0 I wouldn't think they'd make an attempt...

[zlfan]

9 minutes ago, kye said:

I thought that GoPro models are fixed focus?  and were in-focus between about 30cm and infinity?  Going to a larger sensor size might mean they'd have to include AF, which would be a significant change over a fixed focus approach.

Still, it would be good to get a larger sensor, as that would improve low-light performance etc.  The size of the camera is a variable to watch though.

I thought that the RX0 was a really interesting camera and that despite Sony telling everyone it wasn't an action camera and not to review it like that, mostly people were too stupid to take that advice and so it was largely mis-understood and not really utilised for its potential.  Unfortunately it had many of the normal Sony weaknesses including overheating.

It would be really interesting to see what Panny or Oly would do with a similar form-factor, but based on the poor understanding of the RX0 I wouldn't think they'd make an attempt...

I think the major critical advancement of the last decade of the camera development is being able to put 4k or 6k into one tiny body, together with hfr to 60p or 120p, ibis, video af, etc. Maybe in another 5 years, raw codec on a u43 or s35 or 1-inch sensor will come to these small bodies, then a red epic in a true pocket cinema camera body is possible. Any manufacturer does this first will scoop a lot of money, like what Red experienced around 2010. 

[markr041]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Not all.  The Canon XC10 included the whole sensor DR in its standard profile.  I really wish that other camera companies would adopt this practice, but unfortunately they don't.

https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3335_s17.pdf

Don't confuse the bit-depth with DR, they're independent variables.  You can take an ARRI Alexa image and make it 4-bit if you like, and that doesn't radically reduce the DR.

You're confusing a bunch of things.

I personally absolutely HATE the look of 60p.  I am so sensitive to this look now that 30p also looks pretty awful to me.  It looks far less like reality than 24p does, 60p/30p look like hyper-reality, like how reality would look if I was part robot living in the year 3000 after I'd taken my smart drugs for the day.  I don't know why they look like this, but they do.

If you analyse all the variables involved then you become aware that 24p and 60p are both significantly different to how reality looks to our eyes, they are just making different trade-offs, and neither one is more 'correct' than the other.  The errors of 24p are just less offensive than those of 60p to me, and many others too.

I can understand that watching sports in 60p is useful because there are quick motions of the ball etc, so it's great for making things obvious, but it doesn't look real.  Oddly, when playing video games, 60p / 120p / 240p don't have the same look to me as video.  Maybe it's to do with interacting vs passively watching, I'm not sure.  Maybe it's that games are artificial and so the artificial look of those frame rates doesn't clash with the aesthetic.

I understand that you like the look of 60p and you want to make things look like reality, but that's not what everyone wants.

Cool.

If we promise to never say a bad word against the mighty and perfect GoPro will you promise not to come and tell us off for blaspheming? 

Seriously though, the sooner you accept that not everyone wants what you want, shoots what you shoot, shoots how you shoot, the sooner you'll be able to discuss things rather than always argue with people.

I am not confusing anything. You are just choosing to believe that only you know it all, and others cannot possibly know as much as you on any topic. You have knowledge, cut the condescending... (which is not just to me). And post some of your work instead of lecturing. 

I cannot argue with what you hate.

And unlike you, I do not assume that what I like is what everyone else should like. I have pushed 60 fps because of the bias that WAS in this forum that somehow 24 fps is the correct way to shoot. I think now that has gone away, because the holiness of film has diminished here at last.

In fact, stop your personal lecturing . I get it, you are not used to pushback because you believe in your own head you know it all. Your prejudices are now revealed, as well as your attitude.

I argue against what you say when it is based on ignorance of cameras you have never used, which has been exposed often. Your experience with color grading does not carry over to camera capabilities that you read on the internet.

[kye]

1 hour ago, zlfan said:

I think the major critical advancement of the last decade of the camera development is being able to put 4k or 6k into one tiny body, together with hfr to 60p or 120p, ibis, video af, etc. Maybe in another 5 years, raw codec on a u43 or s35 or 1-inch sensor will come to these small bodies, then a red epic in a true pocket cinema camera body is possible. Any manufacturer does this first will scoop a lot of money, like what Red experienced around 2010. 

While not being action-camera sized, the BMMCC had RAW (compressed and uncompressed) from a S16 sensor (only a tiny bit smaller than 1" sensor) approaching a decade ago.  Of course, that was with 1080p - the mindless pursuit of increasing resolution means that what was once possible now generates too high data-rates, too much heat from processing, etc.

Realistically, there isn't a huge overlap between the people who want RAW and the people who demand cameras smaller than a RED Komodo.  I wish there was, as I think it would be great, but I just don't think it's true!

26 minutes ago, markr041 said:

I am not confusing anything. You are just choosing to believe that only you know it all, and others cannot possibly know as much as you on any topic. You have knowledge, cut the condescending... (which is not just to me). And post some of your work instead of lecturing. 

I cannot argue with what you hate.

And unlike you, I do not assume that what I like is what everyone else should like. I have pushed 60 fps because of the bias that WAS in this forum that somehow 24 fps is the correct way to shoot. I think now that has gone away, because the holiness of film has diminished here at last.

In fact, stop your personal lecturing . I get it, you are not used to pushback because you believe in your own head you know it all. Your prejudices are now revealed, as well as your attitude.

I argue against what you say when it is based on ignorance of cameras you have never used, which has been exposed often. Your experience with color grading does not carry over to camera capabilities that you read on the internet.

You didn't answer my question.

I'll just write lines until you tell me to stop....

[markr041]

"Don't confuse the bit-depth with DR, they're independent variables." Do you seriously think that I do not know this? Do you understand how condescending and insulting that statement is? 

Do you also seriously think that I just defend GoPro no matter what?

Is that how you justify thinking you actually know what you are talking about when you talk about GoPro's or the many other other cameras you have not used - that pushback to what you say is based on prejudice? Attack the person exposing you?

Let me make it very clear - I have access to any camera, any. You might have noticed that I have posted videos from 10's of different cameras of all types. I mostly use the ones I think are best in their category at the time, and I care about size (so I am ignoring the medium-frame cameras for now) and ability to shoot handheld (so you won't see me packing an ARRI or a Venice, though I did work with the Sony FS cameras).

I thus do not defend based on name brand or "ownership", I only care about facts (this does NOT mean I do not make mistakes). You made some ignorant statements about the latest GoPro's, made some ridiculous statements about bit depth, and got caught, so you try to make the person who pushed back look like an idiot - both ignorant and prejudiced. You can dis on GoPro's or Nikons or Canons or Sonys or BlackMagic's or Z-cams or Panasonics or Sigma's (all of which I have used and posted videos from), but it better be based on facts (eg, forget shooting with stabilization in low light with a GoPro - yes; Panasonic AF sucks, until only recently - yes; Sony IBIS is actually weakest - yes; BMPCC and Sigma images are more pleasing for some reason than from other cameras - yes; the Hero 12 is not worth buying over the 11 - yes; the Nikon Z8 is bulky and its AF is difficult to use compared to other cameras - yes).

Do you actually think you have a sense of humor? 

What exactly is your question? I am happy to answer it.  Even if it is, as is likely, an insulting one.

 

[markr041]

Oh, and I am going to shoot with the insta360 ACE PRO too. Brandon Li really sold out, and tried hard to make a convincing video by hiding the faults.

Maybe I will be surprised positively. I will try to think of some use for it - it  is unlikely to beat the Pocket 3 for night video, which has a bigger sensor and no need to crop or use high shutter speeds for stabilization. But if it does, it would be great to have a tiny camera that does it all. I like tiny cameras - it is cute.

I do like the lossless zoom, and 8K is always intriguing, but at that horrible 24 fps requiring an ND if the sun is shining, which costs an extra $110! Not to mention the bother. Even the Canon 8bit REC709 V10 has built in ND's, and they can be automatic!

8bit REC709 is really limiting - have to get exposure just right, have to watch out for blow outs more, cannot do much in post to correct, have to stick with the canned colors, no control of noise reduction or sharpening (all of which are subject to control with GoPro's and the Pocket 3). This is really a big step backwards. Even the 8bit HLG on older Sony's was an improvement.

[kye]

2 hours ago, markr041 said:

"Don't confuse the bit-depth with DR, they're independent variables." Do you seriously think that I do not know this? Do you understand how condescending and insulting that statement is? 

Do you also seriously think that I just defend GoPro no matter what?

Is that how you justify thinking you actually know what you are talking about when you talk about GoPro's or the many other other cameras you have not used - that pushback to what you say is based on prejudice? Attack the person exposing you?

Let me make it very clear - I have access to any camera, any. You might have noticed that I have posted videos from 10's of different cameras of all types. I mostly use the ones I think are best in their category at the time, and I care about size (so I am ignoring the medium-frame cameras for now) and ability to shoot handheld (so you won't see me packing an ARRI or a Venice, though I did work with the Sony FS cameras).

I thus do not defend based on name brand or "ownership", I only care about facts (this does NOT mean I do not make mistakes). You made some ignorant statements about the latest GoPro's, made some ridiculous statements about bit depth, and got caught, so you try to make the person who pushed back look like an idiot - both ignorant and prejudiced. You can dis on GoPro's or Nikons or Canons or Sonys or BlackMagic's or Z-cams or Panasonics or Sigma's (all of which I have used and posted videos from), but it better be based on facts (eg, forget shooting with stabilization in low light with a GoPro - yes; Panasonic AF sucks, until only recently - yes; Sony IBIS is actually weakest - yes; BMPCC and Sigma images are more pleasing for some reason than from other cameras - yes; the Hero 12 is not worth buying over the 11 - yes; the Nikon Z8 is bulky and its AF is difficult to use compared to other cameras - yes).

Do you actually think you have a sense of humor? 

What exactly is your question? I am happy to answer it.  Even if it is, as is likely, an insulting one.

I didn't realise you had access to every camera.  I realise now that this makes every statement you make correct!

I'll learn my place eventually....

[Emanuel]

I love your posts @markr041with your contributions on videos from the most recent releases, but something I can tell you though... @kye has a refined sense of humour. Found these entries very funny BTW : ) Let alone the level of expertise this fellow of ours you included shows on every single topic kye addresses his focus. It is what it is : ) And I don't find those posts addressed to you or anyone else here offensive, on the opposite. Chill out pal and add a laugh instead ; ) I bet kye also appreciates such talks with you. As much as your rebel tone to defy anyone who doesn't bite the way you bite. His case too :- ) he just disagrees with you. You're also not in a difficult portrait although a bit embarrasssing if you claim it is abusive against you when seems not to some other people here or when you disagree with him taking it as two different sides on war : D Just distinct POVs on same subject. That's life :- )

[Emanuel]

Unpaid honest review (with 8K sample @gt3rs) with a few comparison shootout testing with other capture setups (small YT studio environment), seems fairly neat to watch and see its potential for certain usage no miracles out there but definitely enough for professional applications, I am impressed because I've been struggling to see these devices for that purpose (had a couple of Hero 10 before I decided to sell):

 

[Emanuel]

EOSHD.com user @markr041has also posted some handy comparison here on these boards with the recent just arrived Osmo Pocket 3:

 

[Emanuel]

No comments needed ; ) As previous Insta360 user must say their software is one of a kind :- )