MacBook Pro - M2 or M3

[kye]

21 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Is it possible on most recent Mac with unified memory?

You can't upgrade an existing Mac, so its a matter of buying the one you want.  ie, "upgrading" what you're purchasing.

22 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Even dealing with high resolution video files?

It depends on what you mean by "high resolution".

Here's the speedtest I just did on my 2020 MBP internal SSD.  It's not state of the art by a long-shot, but as you can see it's green across the board for all the codecs, including 4K60 in CinemaDNG.  

Looking at the data rates from the UMP 12K the highest ones for 12K 24p are 578MB/s for BRAW 5:1 and up to 1156MB/s for Q0, so in theory those should work fine too.  You'd want to have a decent amount of headroom of course, but I suspect that having enough processing power is more likely to be the challenge rather than the speed of your SSD.

[eatstoomuchjam]

3 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Is it possible on most recent Mac with unified memory?

 

I meant that when you purchase, you can go through a configuration tool on the Apple site and upgrade from the base option.  After purchase, you can upgrade neither memory nor disk on any modern Apple laptop.  This is why you want to make sure both are enough to last a while when you purchase.
 

3 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Even dealing with high resolution video files?

How high is the resolution that you need? 8K ProRes from the GFX 100 II or 8K raw from the EOS R5 both work for me.

Canon R5 8K raw (maximum quality) is 2,600 megabits/second.  A Samsung T9 (USB 3.something) can read at about 2,000 megabytes/second - that is to say 16,000 megabits/second.

Google tells me that 12K raw from the Ursa Mini 12K is about 578 megabytes/second (5:1) - so even that should be fine from a decent external SSD...  unless you need like 4 streams of it at once.  If so, I suppose you'll need another solution.  😉

Even Q0 as mentioned above (missed that 578 is 5:1 when I first wrote this and hadn't seen kye's message yet) would be fine, though there you'd be limited to 1 stream before things got choppy.  😅

[kye]

20 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I meant that when you purchase, you can go through a configuration tool on the Apple site and upgrade from the base option.  After purchase, you can upgrade neither memory nor disk on any modern Apple laptop.  This is why you want to make sure both are enough to last a while when you purchase.
 

How high is the resolution that you need? 8K ProRes from the GFX 100 II or 8K raw from the EOS R5 both work for me.

Canon R5 8K raw (maximum quality) is 2,600 megabits/second.  A Samsung T9 (USB 3.something) can read at about 2,000 megabytes/second - that is to say 16,000 megabits/second.

Google tells me that 12K raw from the Ursa Mini 12K is about 578 megabytes/second (5:1) - so even that should be fine from a decent external SSD...  unless you need like 4 streams of it at once.  If so, I suppose you'll need another solution.  😉

Even Q0 as mentioned above (missed that 578 is 5:1 when I first wrote this and hadn't seen kye's message yet) would be fine, though there you'd be limited to 1 stream before things got choppy.  😅

I'm curious.

Do you have any experience about how much 'headroom' you should allow for in disk speeds?

For example, if you had an SSD that could do 2000MB/s you wouldn't want to use it for a codec that was 2000MB/s because if anything happened then the drive couldn't ever catch back up again.  Also, things like IPB codecs require decoding the previous keyframe then catching up to the frame you want, so there's overhead there too.

Also, the internal drive is likely to be asked to do other things randomly by the OS, but external drives wouldn't be hassled so much (but still would be for background processes), so curious to hear how these compare in reality.

I'm asking because I've never worked with codecs that are anywhere close to the speed of the drive, but it seems a good thing to be aware of when talking about these things.

[Emanuel]

Me too @kye... And @eatstoomuchjam BTW, I meant 12K.

There's no room for further updates, the only choice there it is not fail on the chosen configuration to buy. No room for 2nd chance once purchased.

Yes, Q0 will demand for more resources but also 12K @ 75 fps going with Ursa Mini Pro 12K 2.4:1 as for instance...

I wonder when the things will become choppy versus the use from internal SSD.

[Jedi Master]

On 12/4/2023 at 8:06 PM, kye said:

Since we started using SSDs the RAM limitations were much less impactful, but WOW does OSX fall apart if you run out of SSD space!  It becomes a struggle to even use the computer to delete some files and recover, things just unravel..

Do Macs still have that mode (I forget what it was called: target disk mode, or something like that) where you can boot them so they appear as a USB storage device? If so, you connect the machine with the full SSD to another Mac via USB where it will appear a mounted drive, and delete files.

[eatstoomuchjam]

20 hours ago, kye said:

Do you have any experience about how much 'headroom' you should allow for in disk speeds?

I don't.  One of the nice things with using an external drive is that the cost is usually not huge.  If I find myself in a place where the drive can't keep up with the footage, I'll go buy another faster drive.  It's been a while since that came up, though - modern external drives are awfully fast and it's unlikely that I'd intentionally shoot anything more than 8K in the foreseeable future.  As it is, just about the only reason that I shoot 8K is because the R5 doesn't have a 6K mode - that and I've been playing around a little bit with Laowa Nanomorphs with the GFX 100 II since its 8K mode crop is almost perfect for them.

By the time 12K becomes mainstream, it's very possible that Thunderbolt 4 will seem antiquated.  Adoption is likely to be slow since most people (me included) can barely see a difference in 4K and 8K from a reasonable viewing distance.  😄

[kye]

11 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Do Macs still have that mode (I forget what it was called: target disk mode, or something like that) where you can boot them so they appear as a USB storage device? If so, you connect the machine with the full SSD to another Mac via USB where it will appear a mounted drive, and delete files.

Not sure.

I've only had it happen a few times, and although it became really slow, I was able to bring up the Finder window and delete some large files I could replace, then wait for it to recover, then restart it and free up a bit more space.  Sometimes that process would involve you clicking on something and then going to get a snack and giving it 5 minutes to process that click.

It would normally only occur when I was downloading something and accidentally filled up the drive.  Other times it will warn you that you don't have enough drive space (e.g. to copy files) or it will warn you that drive space is low, so you can free some up before it hits the wall.

It certainly teaches you to be careful though!  Both in downloading, but also in buying the right sized SSD when buying a new machine.

[Jedi Master]

Most operating systems don’t handle their main drive filling up very well. I’ve found the best way to deal with this is to have separate drives for the OS and everything else. That way, if downloads or data files fill up a non-OS drive, the system doesn’t go haywire.

[Emanuel]

6 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Most operating systems don’t handle their main drive filling up very well. I’ve found the best way to deal with this is to have separate drives for the OS and everything else. That way, if downloads or data files fill up a non-OS drive, the system doesn’t go haywire.

Indeed, I've arrived to the same conclusion without the level of expertise you look like to have on topic. Glad to read you to concur or realize we cannot be wrong when people like you confirm our humble impressions on it and act accordingly : )

Pity this is not reciprocal about some other topics... ; ) You know one of the sad misleading things I see for a certain other type of discussion we're used to follow on boards like this one?

It is when we see people thinking why have knowledge about some field they're entitled to express any opinion they figure it as accurate ; ) This affects in particular people with a fair considerable level of knowledge on techie stuff... Only God knows why! LOL : ) Everyone acts like a psychologist 'cause has one mind, can be a bench coach 'cause love football/soccer and any people are able to talk about art when appreciate art. As simple as that. Unfortunately, it is not like that ;- )

[Jedi Master]

1 hour ago, Emanuel said:

It is when we see people thinking why have knowledge about some field they're entitled to express any opinion they figure it as accurate ; ) This affects in particular people with a fair considerable level of knowledge on techie stuff... Only God knows why! LOL : ) Everyone acts like a psychologist 'cause has one mind, can be a bench coach 'cause love football/soccer and any people are able to talk about art when appreciate art. As simple as that. Unfortunately, it is not like that ;- )

Technical issues, like how an operating system reacts to low disk space, are objective issues that don't depend on personal opinions. Art, on the other hand, is completely subjective. What is art to you may be garbage to me, and what is art to me may be garbage to you. Because my definition of and appreciation of art may be different than yours doesn't mean that I don't understand art, and that shouldn't mean that my views on art (both the artistic aspects and the technical aspects) in any way denigrate your own. As I said in another thread, this isn't a zero sum game.

I have a hard time understanding some of what you say. I assume that's because English isn't your first language. Try posting in your native language (at least in your replies to me)--that might be more understandable to me.

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, Jedi Master said:

Technical issues, like how an operating system reacts to low disk space, are objective issues that don't depend on personal opinions. Art, on the other hand, is completely subjective. What is art to you may be garbage to me, and what is art to me may be garbage to you. Because my definition of and appreciation of art may be different than yours doesn't mean that I don't understand art, and that shouldn't mean that my views on art (both the artistic aspects and the technical aspects) in any way denigrate your own. As I said in another thread, this isn't a zero sum game.

I have a hard time understanding some of what you say. I assume that's because English isn't your first language. Try posting in your native language (at least in your replies to me)--that might be more understandable to me.

No, first off, it's not because technical issues are objective issues that art is subjective on its turn.

That's a big mistake people make thinking art is (merely) subjective. (Not even 'merely', similar or close!... you've used outrageously the word "completely"... WOW : )

 

A lot of people misplace taste for aesthetics.

The art I like is not necessarily good nor the one I dislike is bad.

Aesthetics is an important field of knowledge as much as technology (distributed by different fields) is, beyond and despite their dissimilarities.

The fact English is not my native language is not the issue about the hard time you say you spend to understand of what I say, as you wrote. That's not about the idiom also because language is much more than mere idioms.

The art language is prone to be as much complex as any technical one.

The problem here is that people tend to see a technical language as something objective and art as a matter of personal opinion. The latter is not. Taste, yes. Art as subject of aesthetics is not. This a most common error techie individuals have for the subject matter. Unfortunately. Really. Not show off from my own. Trust me : )

Better to focus on the stuff we're able to discuss on this topic instead, once this comes from the other thread indeed.

 

The new chips by Apple. Isn't that a field of your specialty? CPUs design?

 

The same way I respect the knowledge of engineers and chip designers as I read you've presented yourself, please save you and anyone else in order to avoid reading misplaced stuff about things aesthetes are used to study for a lifetime ; )

Filmmaking is NOT only technology but has a lot to do with aesthetics no less or maybe even more.

A frequent misjudgement.

And not, that's not subjective at all!

EAG :- )

 

[kye]

12 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Most operating systems don’t handle their main drive filling up very well. I’ve found the best way to deal with this is to have separate drives for the OS and everything else. That way, if downloads or data files fill up a non-OS drive, the system doesn’t go haywire.

Agreed.

Most of the YouTuber crowd I see editing on laptops have some sort of mechanism to attach an SSD to the lid of their machine for editing from.  Velcro appears to be popular.

I used to edit on my laptop on the train and the seats are often so narrow that any plug sticking out the left or right of the machine would get bumped as people sit down or stand up from sitting next to you.  I solved that issue by upgrading to a 1Tb SSD in my machines, which gives enough room to edit a few projects on the go if I need to.  I only shoot h264/5 so files are reasonably sized.

Most of my hardcore adventures into SSD optimisation were from the first Mac I ever bought - a 64Gb 11" MacBook Air from ~2012.  When I bought it I expected to keep my files on external USB sticks but never considered that I'd need more than 64Gb for the OS and applications alone.  I ended up buying a slim-fitting USB drive that basically didn't protrude from the chassis and mapped a bunch of system folders to it.  I think I even ended up with the entire /Applications folder on it.

It worked well but I made sure to buy a larger drive next upgrade!

[eatstoomuchjam]

Yeesh.  Performance from that type of USB drive is usually terrible.  Glad it worked out for you, but load time for applications must have been unpleasant.

One mitigation (but not solution) for the cable problem is to use one with a right-angle connector going left or right depending on where you attach it.  Velcro to the back of the screen is smart - I should probably do that (and get some right angle cables).  That'd go a long way to reducing my irritation when editing from an external drive that's flopping around every time I want to get up.  😅

[Jedi Master]

10 hours ago, kye said:

Most of my hardcore adventures into SSD optimisation were from the first Mac I ever bought - a 64Gb 11" MacBook Air from ~2012.  When I bought it I expected to keep my files on external USB sticks but never considered that I'd need more than 64Gb for the OS and applications alone.  I ended up buying a slim-fitting USB drive that basically didn't protrude from the chassis and mapped a bunch of system folders to it.  I think I even ended up with the entire /Applications folder on it.

How's performance from that tiny USB drive? Not great, I'd imagine, but perhaps good enough for your needs.

I remember when SSDs first became available. Operating systems were written to use rotating disks as storage, which don't have write-cycle limitations, so the OS would perform write-intensive operations like paging to an SSD and wear it out prematurely, especially since early SSDs that more primitive wear-leveling algorithms than today. Nowadays things are much better with OSes optimized for SSDs and the SSDs themselves are better (except really cheap ones, which tend to fail more often than mainstream drives).

I find those tiny drives really handy for some things. I have my entire CD music collection ripped to FLAC files and stored on one of those tiny drives, which goes into a USB port on my car. It doesn't stick out very far, so less chance of it getting snapped off if something impacts it.

[kye]

7 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

How's performance from that tiny USB drive? Not great, I'd imagine, but perhaps good enough for your needs.

I remember when SSDs first became available. Operating systems were written to use rotating disks as storage, which don't have write-cycle limitations, so the OS would perform write-intensive operations like paging to an SSD and wear it out prematurely, especially since early SSDs that more primitive wear-leveling algorithms than today. Nowadays things are much better with OSes optimized for SSDs and the SSDs themselves are better (except really cheap ones, which tend to fail more often than mainstream drives).

I find those tiny drives really handy for some things. I have my entire CD music collection ripped to FLAC files and stored on one of those tiny drives, which goes into a USB port on my car. It doesn't stick out very far, so less chance of it getting snapped off if something impacts it.

That was from 2012.  I've had a number of replacement computers since then!

At the time it seemed fine, but that was my first machine with an SSD, so it wasn't hard to impress me back then 🙂 

[Jedi Master]

30 minutes ago, kye said:

That was from 2012.  I've had a number of replacement computers since then!

At the time it seemed fine, but that was my first machine with an SSD, so it wasn't hard to impress me back then 🙂 

Back then I worked for a company that made controller ICs integrated into SSDs, so I went through the teething process! Getting OS developers to change their code to properly support SSDs was sometimes an ordeal. For example, there were lots of complaints of poor write performance, and much of this was due to an OS not issuing trim commands to the SSD. Unlike magnetic disks, SSD blocks need to be erased prior to writing, and erasure is a time-consuming operation than can really slow down writes on a well-used SSD. A trim command tells the SSD which blocks are no longer in use so it can erase them during idle periods. This greatly speeds up writes that are targeted at those erased blocks. If I remember correctly, MacOS was one of the last OSes to get support for trim.