Thoughts on Nikon Z9/Z8 vs. Canon R3/R5(c)?

[kye]

10 hours ago, Eric Calabros said:

The problem with IBIS is they're made for still as a priority. Nikon optical VR+IBIS is so good in still shooting that looks like cheating. But video, especially walking situation, is totally different story. 

I'm not saying that any of these are better or worse overall, it's just that they work differently, and for any given situation the pros and cons of one method might be more beneficial than another method.  There will be situations where IBIS is the best, situations where OIS is the best, and situations where EIS / DIS is the best.  The same will be true for all the combinations too.  Throw in gimbals and sliders and cranes and you will still find that the answer of "which is better" will still depend on the circumstances.

I just posted because Ty mentioned he wasn't aware of the situations when IBIS is better than DIS, and so I provided an example.  There are examples where DIS is better.  It's like anything, there's nuance and the more you can understand this then the more you'll be able to optimise your own work.

20 hours ago, mercer said:

I saw this video on YouTube a few weeks ago that could be useful for some of you guys to think about...

 

Yeah, ROI doesn't really factor in to these discussions..   if it did, the answer would almost always be that the "Buy nothing" option would be best!

Or, if there is money to be invested, it would be better put into marketing or some other skill that can actually move the needle on the financial performance of your business.  The cold reality is that the quality of the product isn't actually the limiting factor in most small businesses, which is why the world is full of smooth-talking people selling things that are mediocre at best and driving around in luxury cars.

 

[Ty Harper]

On 12/13/2023 at 8:43 PM, Django said:

90% of my Canon glass are EF primes and none of them have lens IS

Ah ok, now I get your perspective/needs much better. I'm on the opposite spectrum and only have EF lenses with IS.

[Ty Harper]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I just posted because Ty mentioned he wasn't aware of the situations when IBIS is better than DIS, and so I provided an example.

Thanks @kyeand I should clarify that it was my bad for seeing all the hype around R5's IBIS vs the R5C's DIS and not taken the time to fully understand exactly what each system did/didn't do.

The thing is, when lens IS first came on the scene it was very clear why it was better than no IS at all.

And sure IS, IBIS and DIS at their core are all able to make a handheld static video shot feel like it's on a tripod - but where lens IS shines for my use cases is in the way it translates movement above a certain threshold to look natural/organic vs IBIS and DIS.

Had I fully grasped that IBIS was never going to give me anything better than DIS when it came to that particular aspect, I would've just bought another R5C and called it a day! But ah well, again totally my bad, tho it's not like the R5 isn't a great hybrid camera in its own right.

[Ty Harper]

Random test between R5C and FX3 that just popped up in my feed: 

 

[kye]

12 hours ago, Ty Harper said:

Thanks @kyeand I should clarify that it was my bad for seeing all the hype around R5's IBIS vs the R5C's DIS and not taken the time to fully understand exactly what each system did/didn't do.

The thing is, when lens IS first came on the scene it was very clear why it was better than no IS at all.

And sure IS, IBIS and DIS at their core are all able to make a handheld static video shot feel like it's on a tripod - but where lens IS shines for my use cases is in the way it translates movement above a certain threshold to look natural/organic vs IBIS and DIS.

Had I fully grasped that IBIS was never going to give me anything better than DIS when it came to that particular aspect, I would've just bought another R5C and called it a day! But ah well, again totally my bad, tho it's not like the R5 isn't a great hybrid camera in its own right.

I suspect that another variable in your observations will be the particular implementation of the system.

One thing that frustrates me no end is how these stabilisation systems are specified.  The "5 stops" rating is a measure of how much vibration is left in the image compared to how much the camera was subjected to.  That's fine, but in my experience this isn't the factor that is dominant at all.  My experience is that if you are able to hold a camera steady and only have a small amount of shake then they all do a good job - where the residual is practically invisible.

The situation where the system isn't able to do such a great job is where the amount of camera shake is more than the mechanism is able to eliminate - i.e. the mechanism reaches the mechanical limits of its movement.  These are the situations that show the limits to the mechanism, and (I suspect) one of the reasons that MFT is often reported as being better than larger sensors.  This would make sense as to get the same range of stabilisation an MFT sensor would only have to move half as far as a FF sensor, and do so with a quarter the weight.

So, if the systems reveal themselves at their limits, another aspect is how they behave at their limits.  No manufacturer implements this in a way that absorbs all movement and then instantly transitions to having zero impact when the mechanisms boundaries are met, and this would be a terrible design choice, so there needs to be some sort of transition zone between full stabilisation and none, like a 'knee' or 'rolloff', and the characteristic of this function would likely impart some sort of 'feel' to the user I would expect.

Also, each of the mechanisms is likely to be quite benign when they are operating well within their range of stabilisation, but the further towards their limits you push, they will reveal various artefacts.  The combination of IBIS and ultra-wide-angle lenses is well known with the corners wobbling about like jelly on a rickshaw, but I would imagine that there are other combinations that all have their own issues with differing aesthetics too.

The sad thing is that with a very rudimentary testing setup, someone that had access to all the cameras (like DXO or some other tester) would be easily able to measure these things, and give some data around them.  I think it would be exceedingly useful to know that one camera was able to stabilise twice as much movement as another camera, despite both of them having the same ratio of reduction ("stops") when both are well within their functional range.

There are also other aspects that bear mentioning that just aren't well known, for example that IBIS and DIS stabilises camera roll motion, but OIS does not.  With all the reading I do, and with the huge emphasis that my own shooting places on stabilisation, I never knew that and learned it the hard way on a shoot of my own.

[jozef s]

Very good information  shared...

I have a 70 to 300 nikon dx lens and a sigma 50 to 500 lens...

 

I am debating whether to stay nikon or go sony or Canon...

 

I think it's still too early for the decisoon....for nikon z8 we need a mark 2 to come out as z8 is a first hit

 

For canon we need a R5 mark 2 also to iron out their first hit issues.

.I think when these come out...then comparing them to Sonys best...will be the best way to finally make a decision on which way to go....it's still early...

Plus more lenses will be out to compete with Sony too...

 

Anyone use nikon old DX lenses from d300 /500 years on Sony ,nikon or Canon full frames .with adaptors..that can provide any input on how that's working for you? Would be helpful before I jump....any input would be great....I am moving to my first full frame

 

Jozef

[The Dancing Babamef]

i have adapted an FX-mount to my Z-mount without issues

[Kino]

I recently shot this cover song and music video in 8K RAW on the R5C with a Great Joy 1.8x Anamorphic (50mm). My daughter sings here and I recorded the music, so I was occupied with a lot of things aside from the camera. Having said that, the camera performs really well for what it is and is a great addition for those who already own Canon glass. It's not going to replace a proper cinema camera in terms of the best DR or latitude, but it is an amazing tool and the in-camera anamorphic de-squeeze is a priceless feature. The video is uploaded in 8K so choose that for best quality:

 

[Jedi Master]

Here's an interesting article related to the Nikon Z9. Nikon is developing a derivative of the Z9 for use by astronauts on the moon.

 

https://www.theverge.com/2024/3/1/24087610/nikon-nasa-hulc-handheld-universal-lunar-camera-artemis-moon-mission

[ghostwind]

With today's news, I feel like I made the right choice going with the Z9s, not just for now, but for the future. 

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, ghostwind said:

With today's news, I feel like I made the right choice going with the Z9s, not just for now, but for the future. 

Why? You planning a moon mission?

Just trolling 😉