Thoughts on Nikon Z9/Z8 vs. Canon R3/R5(c)?

[The Dancing Babamef]

2 minutes ago, Django said:

If you don't mind checking and letting me know, I can't seem to find that info online or in the manual.

Would be totally awesome though if you could store specific video resolution, frame rate, shutter speed, log/profile, codec etc in a custom bank and recall them on the fly with indeed the Fn buttons! Fingers crossed that is a possibility..

I do that on my Z9. Shooting bank A is 8.3K60p and B is for 4.1K120p both RAW. 

[The Dancing Babamef]

1 hour ago, Ilkka Nissila said:

The b type has lower capacity than c (and the difference is significant).  Recording time may also depend on which codec you use, some are more processing-intensive.

15B: 1900mAh 14Wh

15C: 2280mAh 16Wh....

[Ilkka Nissila]

8 hours ago, Django said:

If you don't mind checking and letting me know, I can't seem to find that info online or in the manual.

Would be totally awesome though if you could store specific video resolution, frame rate, shutter speed, log/profile, codec etc in a custom bank and recall them on the fly with indeed the Fn buttons! Fingers crossed that is a possibility..

These things can be done. I just configured my video shooting bank A for Prores 422 HQ 25 fps and 1/50s SDR, and bank B for h.265 4K 50 fps 10-bit 1/100s with N-Log, and I can now switch between banks by pressing and holding Fn3 (which I programmed to act as shooting bank selection button from the video custom settings custom controls menu) and rotating the main command dial. Very handy.

[MrSMW]

I’m a bit undecided now after more musing…

There are 2 principle options open to me with one third but unlikely one…

Contender 01 =

S1H + 70-200 f4

S5ii + 28-70 f2.8

Zf + 40 f2

Z8 + 20-40 f2.8 + 70-180 f2.8

Contender 02 =

Z6iii + 28-75 f2.8

Zf + 40 f2

Z9 + 20-40 f2.8 + 70-180 f2.8

Contender 03 =

S1H + 70-200 f4

S5ii + 28-70 f2.8

S2R + Samyang 35-150 f2/2.8

Summary =

Option 01 = the most comprehensive set up with 2 separate video units and 2 photo units and is the cheapest in that I have everything except for the Z8. It also has the most compact units in the hand.

Option 02 = a more compact overall set up with cross compatibility between all bodies and lenses within one system with all 3 units designated ‘hybrid’. Cost is not much difference as the sale of 4x L Mount items will make up the difference financially compared with Option 01. The Z9 component works ‘better’ than the Z8 in the same role, albeit at the expense of size & weight. This option also requires the Z6iii to come into existence…

Option 03 = the wild card.

An all L Mount option and as I have repeatedly stated, I am not trying to move away from L Mount for the sake of moving and love the results I have been getting. It’s just been how I need to go about getting those results, mainly due to glass, that have been a source of frustration, but the camera side, I would rather stick with them if there was a way. And there is a way. Maybe…

S2R (or H) plus that Samyang 35-150. Neither officially exist in L Mount but likely will. In time for the start of my ‘24 season, unlikely I think and realistically that puts or keeps, Option 01 as my most likely direction.

I’ve come down to the conclusion that by the narrowest of margins, I prefer the Z9, but would make that choice of Z8 or Z9 based on the above.

So basically waiting during this off season to see what Nikon do with any Z6iii and Lumix do with any ‘S2’ plus whether Samyang make that 35-150 in L Mount.

Otherwise know exactly what direction I will be taking! Kinda… 🤪

[Django]

On 11/30/2023 at 7:21 PM, Ilkka Nissila said:

These things can be done. I just configured my video shooting bank A for Prores 422 HQ 25 fps and 1/50s SDR, and bank B for h.265 4K 50 fps 10-bit 1/100s with N-Log, and I can now switch between banks by pressing and holding Fn3 (which I programmed to act as shooting bank selection button from the video custom settings custom controls menu) and rotating the main command dial. Very handy.

Awesome, thanks for confirming that can be done, very handy indeed!  Here is another quick question: how do you set up that hi-res zoom function? last time I was on a Z8 I couldn't figure it out. I activated it in the video menu but couldn't find how to set it to a Fn button or anything else really. Its a very interesting feature I'd like to try, also can you set the zoom speed like have it zoom in slow or fast? 

[spinkscapes]

Nikon are doing some fantastic things with their cameras, which is great from a Canon perspective. I expect that the R5 mkII and R1 next year will have to ensure that they surpass the competitive offerings from Nikon and Sony.

For a brand that is supposed to be trailing the others in innovation I've been particularly impressed by Canon's lens offerings. Obviously they've got the without-peer 28-70mm f/2 lens (still) but recently they've added the Canon 135mm f/1.8 IS (which I've been using this year and it is absolutely phenomenal, especially for video).

Then the ultra expensive 100-300mm f/2.8L IS and in the last couple of months they've added the 10-20mm f/4, the 24-105mm f/2.8 IS and the 200-800mm f/6.3 - 9 IS.

Each of these are pushing the boundaries of what was previously thought was achievable in a lens.

That's not to say that the other brands don't have good offerings. However, each of the above lenses I've mentioned is keeping me firmly in the Canon camp. Coupled with the likely improvements on the already exceptional Canon R5 and I honestly can't believe how far we've come with camera offerings in the 15 years since I've been using professional camera gear.

[MrSMW]

32 minutes ago, spinkscapes said:

I honestly can't believe how far we've come with camera offerings in the 15 years since I've been using professional camera gear.

I feel the same. The tools I have at my disposal now are on a completely different level.

Today it is about what I can financially justify rather than using what is available but waiting for that next gen.

I can’t think of a single ‘next gen’ thing I want or need and that is partly because I know it already exists for my needs.

[MrSMW]

Rather than NOT waiting for that next gen is what I meant ☝️

[Ilkka Nissila]

On 12/2/2023 at 4:49 PM, Django said:

Awesome, thanks for confirming that can be done, very handy indeed!  Here is another quick question: how do you set up that hi-res zoom function? last time I was on a Z8 I couldn't figure it out. I activated it in the video menu but couldn't find how to set it to a Fn button or anything else really. Its a very interesting feature I'd like to try, also can you set the zoom speed like have it zoom in slow or fast? 

You need to go to the custom settings menu and the g settings (video). There is a setting where you can assign the hi-res zoom to a pair of custom function buttons (such as Fn1 to zoom in and Fn2 to zoom out). You can also adjust the zoom speed. In addition to buttons on the camera itself, it's possible to control the zoom from the remote video grip that Nikon makes. The main limitation of the high-res zoom is that it limits the AF area to a central wide area of the frame. You can't move the box off center or control how big it is. So you lose some control over the autofocus. Subject detection is available though. I guess the limitation is because the box sizes are tied to the phase-detection sensor positions and those positions with the zoomed-in frame would then change as you zoom. But other than that I like the feature.

[Django]

So I got a hold of some R5C XF-AVC files and was very pleasantly surprised at how well they could be handled on my Intel iMac Pro. Just as good as ProRes really so that kind of levels the codec battle in between these two platforms. Also looking closer at R5C it has some good C line features such as Cine gamut on the log side that gives a nice cinematic image and wideDR. On the HFR side you can dial-in precise fps to conform to 24p for subtle slomo (like 30fps to 24fps). AF has the very handy face only that sticks and doesn't hunt when the subject turns around or disappears from the frame. 

The big minus of the R5C is battery life but with a power bank is easily worked around and the big bonus of the R5C is the fan allowing non-stop recording in all modes and zero overheating. 

Today I'm kind of leaning towards R5C as my next cam purchase just because some of the pros really tick my boxes more even though overall Z8 probably has superior IQ, i/o and specs.

[D Verco]

I haven't used the z8 so I can't compare, but I haven't been impressed with the r5/ r5c that much tbh

[ade towell]

From what I’ve seen I think the Z8 and Z9 have the best image and colour separation of all the mirrorlerss cameras, there is something special going on there, the R5c just looks like all the other Canon mirrorless, nice image but lacking a bit in DR and slightly noisier. The sensor tech just seems a bit less cutting edge. Canon have always struggled transferring the DR from still into video on their mirrorless cameras. A real shame as it is there in the rest of the Cinema line from the C70 upwards

For me with the IBIS too the Nikon’s are the clear winner. Their lenses also look like they are better suited to video especially if you use AF being almost silent. I always had trouble finding fast affordable  Canon lenses that weren’t noisy  

[Django]

14 hours ago, ade towell said:

From what I’ve seen I think the Z8 and Z9 have the best image and colour separation of all the mirrorlerss cameras, there is something special going on there, the R5c just looks like all the other Canon mirrorless, nice image but lacking a bit in DR and slightly noisier. The sensor tech just seems a bit less cutting edge. Canon have always struggled transferring the DR from still into video on their mirrorless cameras. A real shame as it is there in the rest of the Cinema line from the C70 upwards

 

Yes the Z8/Z9 IQ is top notch I agree. However, R5C IQ is actually improved quite a bit from R5 even though the same sensor. The image has less noise and much more pleasing noise pattern, unlike R5 that has nasty digital chroma noise. I think the active cooling helps in that regard. As for DR there have been tests that show R5C has very similar DR to C70. Shadow recovery is cleaner on C70 thanks to DGO sensor. The real shame is no Clog2 on R5C so you have to shoot RAW if you want max DR.

What I do like about Clog3 on R5C is you can change color space internally. You can switch Clog3 to cine gamut, wide DR, BT2020 etc. This is superb for grading in post. Makes everything clear, flexible and easy.

Nikon's N-log is still confusing and tricky to grade to me. Really tough to get great cinematic grade results. The official LUTs are even more terrible. Most of the time I end up giving up and using the flat profile. 

 

15 hours ago, ade towell said:

For me with the IBIS too the Nikon’s are the clear winner. Their lenses also look like they are better suited to video especially if you use AF being almost silent. I always had trouble finding fast affordable  Canon lenses that weren’t noisy  

Yeah its true the f1.8 Nikon primes have more silent AF motors than the Canons equivalent, however once you put them in manual, the fly by wire system sucks with a lag and non linear throw. Nikons overall AF for video is imo sub-par compared to Canons cine AF. It jumps, it hunts, back-focuses etc. So what good are silent lenses when the AF isn't stable? 

I still really like the Z8/Z9, mainly the SOOC IQ but deciding between both systems isn't so clear cut and simple as it may seem on the surface or just by looking at paper specs. I've now used both extensively and start to identify pros/cons in their workflow and usability in the field that may tilt me one way or the other.

[MrSMW]

4 minutes ago, Django said:

Nikon's N-log is still confusing and tricky to grade to me. Really tough to get great cinematic grade results. The official LUTs are even more terrible. Most of the time I end up giving up and using the flat profile. 

This is the principal element that stops me going all in on Nikon.

I'm not especially interested in grading etc and have a capture & edit workflow I am very happy with with Lumix.

So why change that?

I quite probably will not, for 2024 at least, but if I do, it would probably be for the Flat profile because I could work with that.

It's just one component of the greater puzzle for me personally.

[Django]

Yeah if you're not planning on doing advanced grading or setting up CST nodes in Davinci then I'd probably avoid shooting N-log altogether. Fortunately Nikon has nice usable picture profiles like Flat & Neutral that with few manual adjustments can give you a very pleasing image. So Nikons can be practical for SOOC shooting. But I much prefer Canon especially with the Cine line options for grading log footage. YMMV.

[D Verco]

You can now set the Nikon lenses to linear for manual focus btw 

[MrSMW]

4 hours ago, Django said:

Yeah if you're not planning on doing advanced grading or setting up have no idea even what CST nodes in Davinci are, then I'd probably avoid shooting N-log altogether

Yep, sounds like me 😜

[D Verco]

It's actually the easiest thing ever. You just input the colour space/ log curve the footage was shot in, and output whatever colour space and gamma curve you want. 

 

Can use it to go straight to rec709 or transform to arri log to use arri luts. 

[D Verco]

I am very interested on that rumour about a new Nikon log 

[eatstoomuchjam]

19 hours ago, Django said:

As for DR there have been tests that show R5C has very similar DR to C70. Shadow recovery is cleaner on C70 thanks to DGO sensor. The real shame is no Clog2 on R5C so you have to shoot RAW if you want max DR.

Which tests?  Any objective test that I've been able to find shows the R5C having marginally better DR to the R5 (as you said, possibly due to better cooling or different processing), but still much lower DR than the C70 at SNR 0.5 or 1.  Having just used the C70 and R5 together side-by-side on a shoot last weekend (both using raw lt), I'd say the C70 images were overall cleaner and have a lot more detail in the shadows (even aside from having less noise) - I was glad, I was a bit worried that I'd end up feeling silly having traded in a bunch of gear and some cash to get the C70.  😃

As far as the main topic of the thread, if your debate is between Z8 and R5/R5C/R3, the choice probably is going to be more emotional or based on ergonomics, ultimately.  They're all very good.