Hey, KODAK Super 8 Camera is out there!

[newfoundmass]

4 hours ago, JulioD said:

Now there is a dud camera.

Sure the sensor is nice, but it’s horrible horrible to use and that’s why it failed.

I'd still like one 🙂

[kye]

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Perhaps, just because LA is the biggest market for this in the world. But outside  LA or another similar major metropolis (such as perhaps NYC) then it just wouldn't work. 

Hard to justify ownership of it just on the basis of the low budget rentals from music videos!

 

How many commercials or higher budget music videos will want to shoot on Super 8mm?? 

And of those very few which want the Super 8mm look, how many will want the awkward workflow of actual film vs shooting on an ARRI then degrading it down in post? (or some other similar-ish approach, such as shooting with an OG BMPCC or Digital Bolex or Magic Lantern) 

I would imagine there would be a niche larger than you might think.

I think the revival of 35mm still film is a reasonable parallel - it is much easier to shoot digital and emulate it in post with one of the many excellent plugins available.  But people like shooting film because it's somehow "authentic".

Noam Kroll shoots a lot on film, as I am sure you're aware, shooting a number of short films on it, and shot this ad on super 8mm: https://noamkroll.com/shooting-super-8mm-red-gemini-for-banana-republic-in-joshua-tree/

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, JulioD said:

Just because you don’t think it makes sense doens’t mean there aren’t already people now shooting super 8.

https://www.oldfastglass.com/super-8mm

https://www.pro8mm.com/collections/super-8-camera-rentals

https://kitsplit.com/rent/canon-1014-xl-s-super8-camera-with-zoom-6-5-65mm-f1-4-brooklyn-ny

https://www.sydneysuper8.com.au

Away from the major markets people are more likely to use KitSplit or similar.  The last link is a company in Sydney processing super 8 and doing a thriving business.  They can’t keep up.

These fall into the categories of:

1) people hiring out old cameras (which they picked up cheap, or have been in their inventory for donkey years. The marginal cost to keep an item in your rental inventory vs acquiring it in the first place is very different maths)

2) private individuals renting out stuff, which is not a rental house

3) a primarily stills camera store which has a sideline in other related stuff, certainly not what we'd regard as "a rental house" in a conventional filmmaking sense

My point stands, if anything, this has strengthened my point with your examples given. 

  

12 minutes ago, kye said:

I would imagine there would be a niche larger than you might think.

I think the revival of 35mm still film is a reasonable parallel - it is much easier to shoot digital and emulate it in post with one of the many excellent plugins available.  But people like shooting film because it's somehow "authentic".

Noam Kroll shoots a lot on film, as I am sure you're aware, shooting a number of short films on it, and shot this ad on super 8mm: https://noamkroll.com/shooting-super-8mm-red-gemini-for-banana-republic-in-joshua-tree/

Extremely niche, a few individuals. 

You'll be able to count on your fingers (probably won't even need your second hand!) how many dedicated camera rental houses in the film industry will worldwide be picking up this Kodak S8 camera to add to their rental inventory 

[kye]

4 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Extremely niche, a few individuals. 

You'll be able to count on your fingers (probably won't even need your second hand!) how many dedicated camera rental houses in the film industry will worldwide be picking up this Kodak S8 camera to add to their rental inventory 

I was suggesting that there might be one.  I thought you were saying there wouldn't be any.

I wouldn't imagine they would be common, but I did think there would be sufficient demand in the market for the most film-centric rental house in the middle of Hollywood to have at least a single unit.

[JulioD]

30 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

These fall into the categories of:

1) people hiring out old cameras (which they picked up cheap, or have been in their inventory for donkey years. The marginal cost to keep an item in your rental inventory vs acquiring it in the first place is very different maths)

2) private individuals renting out stuff, which is not a rental house

3) a primarily stills camera store which has a sideline in other related stuff, certainly not what we'd regard as "a rental house" in a conventional filmmaking sense

My point stands, if anything, this has strengthened my point with your examples given. 

  

Extremely niche, a few individuals. 

You'll be able to count on your fingers (probably won't even need your second hand!) how many dedicated camera rental houses in the film industry will worldwide be picking up this Kodak S8 camera to add to their rental inventory 

You don’t get it.  

Here i thought you were industry.

 

 

[BenEricson]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And of those very few which want the Super 8mm look, how many will want the awkward workflow of actual film vs shooting on an ARRI then degrading it down in post? (or some other similar-ish approach, such as shooting with an OG BMPCC or Digital Bolex or Magic Lantern) 

I feel like nobody but enthusiasts actually does that... The fake film look on small gauge stuff ain't it! The workflow is fine. Most labs in LA or NY could have you scans in a day or two.  Flat 4444 ProRes File. Same as it's always been. 

Game Time on HBO. "The project used approximately 1,200  50 foot rolls of Super 8 film; 50 Hours of Super 8 filmmaking!"

I'll just repeat what others have said, but a video tap, LCD, and c-mount, make it a very very unique product. There's really no motion picture cameras period that have a video tap that cost under 20k.

Personally, I much prefer the ergonomics of shooting with a view finder, but I do believe people who have the money will certainly buy this camera. Rental house definitely. They'll snatch them up. I would guess they sell 500 - 1000 in pre-order. Isn't it made by Logmar? Those are expensive as well.

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I was suggesting that there might be one.  I thought you were saying there wouldn't be any.

When you can count how many there in the world on the fingers of your hands, then that is basically a rounding error that rounds down to zero 

Of course exceptions always exist, but I'll ignore those. 

2 hours ago, kye said:

I wouldn't imagine they would be common, but I did think there would be sufficient demand in the market for the most film-centric rental house in the middle of Hollywood to have at least a single unit.

Nope. The typical camera rental house in hollywood won't have it 

Very few will

 

30 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

Most labs in LA or NY could have you scans in a day or two.  

But outside LA or NY? This is not happening. 

So sure, a very small number of rental houses in major places such as LA or NYC might get it. But in other cities? Munich? Melbourne? Mumbai? Moscow? Madrid? Manila? Montreal? Milan? Miami? Minneapolis? Marseille? Manchester? Medellín? Milwaukee? Montréal? Minsk? Mexico City? Nah, they won't be spending $$$$$ on this ultra niche Super 8mm camera from Kodak. 

[kye]

4 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

When you can count how many there in the world on the fingers of your hands, then that is basically a rounding error that rounds down to zero 

Of course exceptions always exist, but I'll ignore those. 

Nope. The typical camera rental house in hollywood won't have it 

Very few will

 

But outside LA or NY? This is not happening. 

So sure, a very small number of rental houses in major places such as LA or NYC might get it. But in other cities? Munich? Melbourne? Mumbai? Moscow? Madrid? Manila? Montreal? Milan? Miami? Minneapolis? Marseille? Manchester? Medellín? Milwaukee? Montréal? Minsk? Mexico City? Nah, they won't be spending $$$$$ on this ultra niche Super 8mm camera from Kodak. 

So, we agree that there might be one unit in a rental house somewhere?

That was literally my only point... somehow you've managed to change my argument and then argue against me 🙂 

[kye]

Just for interest, I went back to the original posts.  I've added my own emphasis.

Clark said this:

On 12/1/2023 at 12:27 PM, Clark Nikolai said:

It's way too pricey for someone but then again maybe some rental houses would be interested. Instead of keeping some old cameras alive they can get one of these with its warranty and availability of repair parts.  Might be good for those that want to shoot film and will rent it.

I'm intrigued by the extended gate frame size they have. That along with small grained film stock might approach Super16 in look.

You replied with this:

On 12/4/2023 at 7:57 AM, IronFilm said:

Can't see why a rental house would be interested, when you consider the up front costs + overheads vs how often they could rent this out, then there isn't any sensible price they could rent this out at per day where they could make a profit on it. 

and I replied with this:

On 12/4/2023 at 8:41 AM, kye said:

Maybe some niche rental house in LA?  Even just if folks making music videos wanted to rent it?

It is a strange thing how discussions can often veer significantly from what was being discussed originally, and no-one bothers to go back a page or two and see what was actually said.

[IronFilm]

31 minutes ago, BenEricson said:

I'll just repeat what others have said, but a video tap, LCD, and c-mount, make it a very very unique product. There's really no motion picture cameras period that have a video tap that cost under 20k.

The difference between renting a $5K camera vs a $20K camera is kinda irrelevant when it comes to many budgets, and if a rental house already owns a $20K camera, they don't want to massively undercut themselves with a $5K camera unless they have to offer it. 

If productions can already get say an Aaton XTR or an ARRI 16SR3 to rent for a shoot, it kills a lot of the reason as to why a rental house should buy a Kodak Super 8mm camera for $5K

That's why this Kodak camera will mainly appeal to buyers of it as their personal camera, and not most rental houses. 

Anyway, on the topic of video taps, this was an impressive DIY go at it:

https://optroniceye.tumblr.com/post/118678962762/super-8-video-tap 

  

2 minutes ago, kye said:

So, we agree that there might be one unit in a rental house somewhere?

Exceptions will always exist. Of course I can't rule out one could exist. Just like if a person made and sold an overpriced hipster hand cranked film camera then there might be a rental house which gets it, just it would be weird and unusual for them to do so. 

My point has always been this is not being made and marketed primarily to rental houses, this is not of interest to them. 

[kye]

1 minute ago, IronFilm said:

My point has always been this is not being made and marketed primarily to rental houses, this is not of interest to them. 

Given the track-record of Kodaks business decisions throughout the transition from film to digital, I wouldn't rule anything out in terms of what they might be thinking / hoping for.

I would, however, be confident in saying that making it primarily for rental houses would likely be a commercial mistake 🙂 

[IronFilm]

4 minutes ago, kye said:

On 12/4/2023 at 12:57 PM, IronFilm said:

Can't see why a rental house would be interested, when you consider the up front costs + overheads vs how often they could rent this out, then there isn't any sensible price they could rent this out at per day where they could make a profit on it. 

And everything about my post there still stands. 

(of course I'm not denying that exceptions exist. But it would be very unusual for a camera rental house in the film industry to buy this Kodak camera. I'd be less shocked if they purchased a Kinefinity or ZCam, and then those would be very surprising)

  

1 minute ago, kye said:

Given the track-record of Kodaks business decisions throughout the transition from film to digital, I wouldn't rule anything out in terms of what they might be thinking / hoping for.

HAHA!

1 minute ago, kye said:

I would, however, be confident in saying that making it primarily for rental houses would likely be a commercial mistake 🙂 

Agreed

[kye]

8 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

And everything about my post there still stands. 

Funny..  when I read "Can't see why a rental house would be interested" I interpret that as saying that 'not a single rental house would be interested'.  I don't hear 'some would be interested but not enough to make it commercially viable'.

It's like saying 'I can't see why a person would be interested in marrying Jack' but meaning 'only a few dozen people would be interested in marrying Jack'.  Poor Jack - he'll be single forever unless dozens of people fall madly in love with him! 

[Clark Nikolai]

21 hours ago, JulioD said:

It’s built for rental. 

It has a video split. No s8 camera that I know of has ever had one. 

c mount interchangeable lenses. Not many had that either.

That means commercials.  And music videos. 

Commercials and music videos are the life blood of camera rental companies. 

Thats exactly where this camera lives. And the types of clients that can pay for it. 
 

 

 

Super 8 is very niche but still alive. Not many people want to buy an expensive camera just to have a "look" for a dream sequence or flash back scene. I can totally see a camera like this getting some rentals in shows where they can't afford to mess around with old equipment that might fail on the day.

[Clark Nikolai]

9 hours ago, JulioD said:

Now there is a dud camera.

Sure the sensor is nice, but it’s horrible horrible to use and that’s why it failed.

I wouldn't call it a dud. It does what they designed it for. The only bad things about it are the viewfinder and the weight. (Okay, so the cranks are kinda stupid. Could've just been regular knobs.)

It was never intended to be a fully automatic easy to use camcorder replacement. It's not a replacement for a video camera, it's a replacement for a film camera.

I disagree that it's horrible to use. It's just a fully manual camera which takes knowledge, training and patience. (and an external EVF.) It's not the ideal camera for some types of shooting but for the types of shooting that it's designed for it does it very well.

[MrSMW]

I just know that at some point, maybe next year, maybe the year after, I am going to get some hipster stood next to granny with her iPad, shooting one of these things…

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, kye said:

Funny..  when I read "Can't see why a rental house would be interested" I interpret that as saying that 'not a single rental house would be interested'.  I don't hear 'some would be interested but not enough to make it commercially viable'.

It's like saying 'I can't see why a person would be interested in marrying Jack' but meaning 'only a few dozen people would be interested in marrying Jack'.  Poor Jack - he'll be single forever unless dozens of people fall madly in love with him! 

True, it's definitely not a statement as strong as saying "Jack will NEVER get married". 

Exceptions and oddities always exist. 

And yeah, if only a few dozen people out of billions of people on planet earth like Jack, then their odds of getting married is very slim indeed! (plus, will Jake even like them?? Are they even in the same country? Or on the same continent?)

[MrSMW]

Is it Jack, or is it Jake?

Let's get our facts straight here.

[mercer]

Who the fuck is Jack and will he be buying a Kodak Super 8 camera?

Speaking of fingers on a hand, I think Ben has shot more on film and won awards than he has fingers, so I'd personally trust his understanding of the market.

Although I think it's a little pricey, I have no doubt that they'll have plenty of preorders. I would if I could justify it.

If I owned a rental house in Topeka, I'd buy 2 or 3 for when the shops in LA or NY run out of them.

Film is alive and well. 

[JulioD]

14 minutes ago, mercer said:

Who the fuck is Jack and will he be buying a Kodak Super 8 camera?

Speaking of fingers on a hand, I think Ben has shot more on film and won awards than he has fingers, so I'd personally trust his understanding of the market.

Although I think it's a little pricey, I have no doubt that they'll have plenty of preorders. I would if I could justify it.

If I owned a rental house in Topeka, I'd buy 2 or 3 for when the shops in LA or NY run out of them.

Film is alive and well. 

Exactly.  The video split alone appeals to the renter customer who are the ones who NEED to shoot 1200 rolls and then move to the next job (as described above)

Those aren’t owner operators.