24p is outdated

[Jedi Master]

On 12/12/2023 at 7:21 PM, ghostwind said:

Man, reading this thread tells me we need more artists and less engineers. In the world AND in this thread.

If we had more artists and less engineers, you wouldn’t have this thread or this forum. You’d be exchanging letters written with quill pens with your fellow artists. 😉

[zlfan]

It is interesting to see that people favor spatial resolution so much than temporal resolution. Don't forget there is color resolution also. 

I challenge you to provide me any hard scientific evidence from human anatomy, physiology, biochemistry, cellular and molecular biochemistry that human eyes discriminate spatial resolution so much more than temporal resolution. Please, no dream like snake oil. 

Once there is enough scientific evidence to establish the claim that human eyes discriminate spatial resolution much more than temporal resolution, I'd totally be happy to admit that the current trend of going for 8k or 12k in digital cinematography, but limiting 24p for cinematic purposes is scientific, not just moosh moosh marketing and sales strategies. 

LOL. 

 

[Jedi Master]

On 12/13/2023 at 2:09 AM, PannySVHS said:

It's a threat, that Ai is ultimately an instrument to dumbening and controling and ruling over people and exploiting and killing them, if convinient to do so.

Me thinks you’ve been watching too many Terminator movies. 😉

[zlfan]

11 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

If we had more artists and less engineers, you wouldn’t have this thread or this forum. You’d be exchanging letters written with quill pens with your fellow artists. 😉

If there is no Edison like engineers, probably there is no photography camera or movie camera at all. Artists will have to paint on bark skin with dry and wet animal shits. LOL. 

[Jedi Master]

10 minutes ago, zlfan said:

It is interesting to see that people favor spatial resolution so much than temporal resolution. Don't forget there is color resolution also. 

Human vision tends to favor temporal resolution over spacial or color resolution. Detecting motion is an important survival skill that we, and most animals, probably developed early in our evolutionary history.

Color resolution isn’t nearly as important. Early color TV took advantage of that fact to reduce the bandwidth required to transmit chroma signals alongside the luma signal. We still see that today with 4:2:2, 4:2:0, and other color sampling schemes used for digital video.

[zlfan]

If the logic that "60p is for sports and gaming (fast action based), 24p for cinematic dream like motion cadence" is rock solid, can anyone here explain to me why Top Gun Maverick, John Wick series, No time to die 007 latest episodes, etc, use 24p instead of 60p? Aren't F14, F18, or gen 5 stealthy fighters at least 10 times faster than national football team best players, fastest human 100 meters sprint athletes on earth, or world cup best players like Diego Maradona?

When you watch Top Gun 2 etc fast action movies shot in 24p, do you REALLY enjoy the dream-like motion cadence of the dog fighting takes among multiple world best air-superiority aircraft fighters and interceptors? I know I don't. LOL. 

If the latter ones require 60p from Varicam or F55 or Amira, why should the former ones be shot on 24p? Isn't this a contradiction here? Isn't the abovementioned logic fatally flawed?

LOL. 

[zlfan]

On 12/11/2023 at 7:59 AM, KnightsFan said:

The same applies to humans. We have an information set, and can only create thoughts and inferences from that information.

What information do humans have access to that AI do not, which allows them to create where nothing existed before? And I'm not talking about AI today in 2023. I mean the ones we'll have 50 years from now.

Perhaps you could try to define what a "new work" is vs a "mash up" in a formal and abstract sense. We're looking for a definition that shows what humans can do, that machine learning can never do.

Actually, human beings are very much like AIs. The so-called unconsciousness may come from pre life experience and after death experience. There are a lot going on in the paranormal physiology and psychology. Human beings may have true creativity out of nothing even not in their unconciousness, but even this exists, it may be far less than what we think. 

[zlfan]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:37 AM, Fatalfury said:

Agreed. Not to mention OP couldn't probably tell a difference between 24/48 (Titanic being 48p turned out to be factually wrong).

I also find it funny when people think 50/60p is anything close to real life, as 50p is technologically still heavily compromised. For human eye it is certainly much smoother than 24p, but it's also it has this weird motion that sits in somewhere between 100 and 24, where the footage somehow ends up looking actually less real and seems hollow compared to the cinema standard. If you want your production to have videogamey/behind the scenes/soapy/whatever look, then go ahead. But no, it doesn't look real.

When we talk about realism that can fool the eye, it starts from 100 fps minimum. Yet I think none of the cinema projectors currently in use are technically able to show 100 fps material, most TV's in use also don't have the ability. YouTube is capped at 60, not to mention streaming services. There is a long way to go.

But once we are there, even then 24p will have it's place, as it has been said multiple times in this thread, that people experiencing movies crave to escape from the reality and 24p is perfect for that.

But don't tell me 50p = realism.

 

It is interesting to see that people always try to justify something established but not really scientifically proven. Critical thinking is so easily lost under the disguise of pursuing pure art. 

Is there any scientific evidence that 16p or 18p or 20p or 22p is less dream-like or less reality like, yet only 24p or 25p are the optimal frame rates for un reality? and how about 26p, 27p, 28p, 29p, or no 30p, because this is news frame rate? 

For example, give me scientific evidence that 22p or 26p is inferior to 24p or 25p. 

LOL.

[Jedi Master]

I don’t believe the paranormal exists. James Randi, for many years, offered a $1M prize to anyone who could demonstrate any paranormal phenomena under controlled conditions. No one ever claimed the prize.

[zlfan]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:57 AM, John Matthews said:

I didn't see Lord of the Rings The Hobbit because it was 48p because it makes the film look cheap and theatrical- not a fan. That cost them in my case.

 

Statistically, Hobbit is surely a success, due to its successful ticket box sales, about 5 times more than the cost of making the film. This means that 48p does not matter much to general audience. It may matter much to experienced DPs. However, if we consider 24p as a pollution using an extreme word or case here, then experienced DPs are the most polluted. Is 24p truly more aesthetically beautiful? Maybe or maybe not? Is bokeh truly more beautiful than deep focus? Maybe or maybe not, depends on what you want to achieve. In my experience, for events, you want deep focus, something like f4 or f5.6 on s35, instead of f1.2 or f1.4 on s35. It always depends. Claiming 24p is the holy grail of the cinema is just an overly simplified argument. 

[zlfan]

On 12/9/2023 at 11:59 AM, 92F said:

Let's be reasonable!

4K/8K is quite far from cinema...a good FHD is softer and creamier with an FF sensor and an old lens...etc.
It's not a few extra images that change much: real cinema isn't silent cinema in black and white with a real piano in the room? Lol 

Tell me, have you tested when you lose the cinematic sensation: at 25p, 26p, 27p, 28p ...29.5p ..more?! Please, it's not a bit ridiculous...who decides, is it you?
Is slow motion filmed in 60p 120p no longer cinema? : no, stop, we have to wait for the film to return to the original 24p !? Amusing .

Cinematic rendering is a personal matter. Sometimes old high-budget films on silver film then remastered have a very clean rendering, but not sharp...very beautiful, very cinematic visual experiences

Cinema is just an illusion that arouses passions and 24p is a matter of broadcasting habits and laziness... and for TV broadcasting everything has to be readjusted,  so 24p disappears.
For video games it's only cartoons so the cinema experience here, I don't understand, it's irrational !?

Now if you are a purist, only go to cinemas and choose those where you are sure of the broadcast quality... but don't force anyone to only see 24p which jerks at the slightest important panning.

To say that 24p will disappear one day is not important, just a provocation... perhaps it will happen, I am neither for nor against it?

Can't agree more.

24p will always be there, just like sepia, or like steam engine trains, etc. I like sepia very much, I used to shoot several sessions of photos on em5. But not for everything. The same with 24p. 

[zlfan]

19 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

I don’t believe the paranormal exists. James Randi, for many years, offered a $1M prize to anyone who could demonstrate any paranormal phenomena under controlled conditions. No one ever claimed the prize.

It actually exists. There are rigorous scientific experiments demonstrating this. There is a famous research center in Duke University focusing on this. This center has its own scientific journal. 

[zlfan]

On 12/6/2023 at 8:16 PM, kye said:

I just watched John Wick 4 and what a movie!

No spoilers, but I found it to be enjoyable, surprisingly creative and also cinematic as hell.

I cannot imagine, in any form, where making it more realistic would improve things.  I think computer games and immersive experiences definitely benefit from being more realistic, but cinema is just a fundamentally different type of experience.

Actually, your words and your case already defeat the logic that 60p is for sports, 24p for cinema, and 30p for news. If John Wick 4 is not action packed, I don't know which one is. 

[zlfan]

It is interesting to see that people hold this notion that action in an action film is not action, yet action in sports is action. Is 24p blurred action really larger than life? LOL. 

I really want to see some scientific experiment with a double blinded experimental design to check this placebo effect. LOL. 

[zlfan]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:38 PM, IronFilm said:

Maybe. Or perhaps 46fps would have flopped eventually, and it was naturally to drift to 24fps (or similar, such as 23fps or 25fps) as the framerate of choice 

Interesting, 24p is even number, 25p is odd number. How come EU and US viewers have different eyes. Which side is more human? LOL. 

[zlfan]

Sometimes it comes to me, maybe the thinking difference between EU and the States, comes from the 25p and 24p? One P to explain them all. 

[zlfan]

Which one is more fundamental to human eyes as cinematic, 24p or 25p? If 24p is more fundamental, EU people most of time watch 25p, and they are not watching cinema? Also, why does EU set to 25p, not set to 24p, if 24p is scientifically fundamental? Further, why does EU not set to 23p, 24p plus 1p is 25p, minus 1p is 23p. We all know scientifically, if 24p is the optimal peak, then 23p and 25p are equally as close to 24p. Come on, 24p believers, give me a larger than real world explanation please. 

[zlfan]

The notion of "24p is larger than life" is actually from later times to justify the importance of 24p when 30p and 60p are easier and easier to do. 

Let's look at the beginning of the movie industry, all of the earliest short movies shot in late 19th century were trying hard to record the real world as close as possible. Although the industry later developed and differentiated into different categories, the term cinema means movies including all of the subcategories. 

Let us investigate documentaries a little more to see if this "24p is larger than life" notion can hold. Using "CitizenFour" as an example, CitizenFour won the Oscar Award for best documentary, so it is something to be taken seriously. The DP who shot CitizenFour has some thongs in his belt. It was shot with an FS100, a S35 camera, which can do 1080p 24p, 30p, and 60p. I cannot find the frame rate of CitizenFour online, but I am sure that this is not 60p, very possibly not 30p neither, 24p to my opinion. 

OK. If 24p generates a larger-than-life story, i.e., a drama or un real story, yet 60p is for real time show, why did the DP of CitizenFour chose 24p, or at a very low possibility 30p, but not 60p? Did he want to dramatize the story and convey to the audience that this is not a real story, but just a fantasy? Or did he want the audience know that this is a real story? IMHO, I think that the DP wanted this to be as real as possible, and that is why this documentary is so impactful and won the Oscar, yet he very possibly used 24p. Many documentaries were shot at 24p, I am sure that these DPs want their documentaries to be as real stories as possible, and they have some pants and thongs, they are not naked asses for sure. LOL. 

[zlfan]

By the way, about the notion "more thongs mean more weight in talking", there are some opposite examples. Roger Deakins only owns some photography cameras, he does not own any high end cinema cameras, like Alexa he uses on site. Yet when he talks, people listen. He is a naked ass, yeh, a naked bad ass. 

[mercer]

Hahahaha... this is so stupid.

@zlfan you are the one that claims 24p is outdated, yet you are the one demanding that the majority prove you wrong with scientific evidence that 24p is more cinematic than 60p...

Sorry to tell you, but it's your claim, so the burden of proof lies with you to prove us wrong with scientific evidence.