24p is outdated

[Jedi Master]

13 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

Expandir o espectro não significa necessariamente algo melhor. Muitas das vezes, apenas pior (= down). Infelizmente, este é o caso. Este é o drama real que o nosso medium vive hoje. Não esse alvoroço em torno da questão do número de fotogramas. A roda já está inventada.

Yes, that helped. I would argue that forward-looking is, more often than not, going to lead to improvements that weren’t necessarily obvious from first inspection. Saying the wheel has already been invented seems to imply what’s done is done and there’s no room for improvement, but I feel there’s always room for improvement. Otherwise we’d stagnate, both technologically and artistically.

[zlfan]

about 30p is for news.

this used to be true when 2/3 eng cams rule the news gathering world. no matter how hard 2/3 or 1/2 eng cams try, that small sensor look is imbed. and no matter 30p or 60p they are, they were dispised by the cinema world, which was reasonable discrimination. 

nowadays, fx9 c300 iii etc are popular in news gathering, 30p on large sensor cams vs 24p on large sensor cams, there is not much difference, totally different from 30p 2/3 inch or 1/2 inch eng cams vs 24p s35 cams. 

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, Jedi Master said:

Yes, that helped. I would argue that forward-looking is, more often than not, going to lead to improvements that weren’t necessarily obvious from first inspection. Saying the wheel has already been invented seems to imply what’s done is done and there’s no room for improvement, but I feel there’s always room for improvement. Otherwise we’d stagnate, both technologically and artistically.

No, it didn't. What changed there? The word "already" to couple to "the wheel is invented"? LOL

That one is the same written earlier in English : ) And from your response, it is easy to see we're talking about different things ; )

 

Nothing about room for improvement.

Art hasn't been invented with the medium of film.

It won't be reinvented with the future to come neither.

 

Nothing changes when more people as target are added to the equation.

The wider you go or the larger your target is appointed as, the narrower the quality of your content needs to be. To reach more people.

 

Theoretically, the more educated audiences you have, the better outcome your chances are. The more complex and most influential mainstream will become.

 

It's all about that.

The point is that's mere food for dreamers. It will hardly be achieved. Low level is not to be pessimist but realist.

 

[Jedi Master]

30 minutes ago, Emanuel said:

No, it didn't. What changed there? The word "already" to couple to "the wheel is invented"? LOL

That one is the same written earlier in English : ) And from your response, it is easy to see we're talking about different things ; )

Sorry, no. There's a difference between saying "the wheel is invented" and "the wheel has already been invented". It may seem like a small, meaningless nuance to you, but to a native English speaker like me it really alters the meaning. The meaning was clear in your Portuguese text, which is why I asked you to use your native tongue.

[zlfan]

Also, even if when we watch top gun 2 or john wick 4, and feel their motion blur is normal for 24p in action takes, probably the colorist did some trick reducing the motion blur in post. Unless we see the raw footage, we don't know. If motion blur is reduced in post, then the 24p purpose of larger than life is defeated. 

[Emanuel]

2 hours ago, Jedi Master said:

Sorry, no. There's a difference between saying "the wheel is invented" and "the wheel has already been invented". It may seem like a small, meaningless nuance to you, but to a native English speaker like me it really alters the meaning. The meaning was clear in your Portuguese text, which is why I asked you to use your native tongue.

That nuance is nothing about the use of distinct idioms, idiomatic meanings, etc. Nada ; )

Verb tenses work the same in each one of those two. For the sake of it. In this case.

I've introduced the word "already" in Portuguese ("já"), that's why the translator placed the verb as I would have written if I had written it in English.

In the first version though, no use of such word.

I would probably haven't written "the wheel is already invented".

Hence the word "already" stayed off.

I wanted to lay emphasis on that, reason why I wrote "the wheel is invented" instead.

 

"The wheel has already been invented" is not translated in Portuguese: "A roda já está inventada" (present tense). Nope. That's not what I said in Portuguese. I wrote in the present tense on purpose.

 

You two come here with the bizarre idea 24p is outdated. There's a new future to come. That usual yadda yadda.

24p -- the same applies for the mechanisms which produce the mainstream, both are not the wheel invented in the past tense, something prone to change. No. They are valid yesterday, today and tomorrow. That's the big mistake of such argument :- )

 

- EAG

[Emanuel]

The only idiomatic differences you @Jedi Master can claim is the fact the form "to have been" in Portuguese is called "Pretérito Perfeito Composto" which means past and in English "Present Perfect" against the "Present Simple" used by me instead ; ) So, for some reason, I've placed it in the present tense in both idioms ;- )

[zlfan]

16 hours ago, Emanuel said:

The same way why you've chosen this one and not other individual to spend your lifetime with ; )

In this case, something had to be chosen as a standard.

Nothing against standards. They comply a function.

Would any of them be relevant to the equation?

Well, 24 is a multiple of several ones (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 12), 23 not ; )

Even 25 (1,5), a way less than 24.

Human perception works with mathematical variables.

Universe is math.

https://www.livescience.com/42839-the-universe-is-math.html

 

Human perception works with perspective.

Isn't 30p or 60p farther, or further away from 24p as you wrote, so as you have even confirmed? ;- )

 

- EAG :- )

you see, you don't have any convincing data to support why eu sets 25p as the standard. 

if 24p is the holy grail like some of you think, if 24p is fundamental to cinematography,  just like light speed to modern physics, eu should set 24p as its standard. 

and why 25p, not 23p? both are 1p away from 24p. 

as you can see, when we dig more, we can tell this 24p is mandatorily chosen, not optimized. otherwise, there should be data supporting why 24p is superior to 25p and 23p, an so on. 

 

 

[zlfan]

interestingly, why are so many attacking me on titanic as hfr movie? i learn it from wiki, blame wiki if you want to, lol. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_films_with_high_frame_rates

[zlfan]

you see, you don't have any convincing data to support why eu sets 25p as the standard. 

if 24p is the holy grail like some of you think, if 24p is fundamental to cinematography,  just like light speed to modern physics, eu should set 24p as its standard. 

and why 25p, not 23p? both are 1p away from 24p. 

as you can see, when we dig more, we can tell this 24p is mandatorily chosen, not optimized. otherwise, there should be data supporting why 24p is superior to 25p and 23p, and so on. 

[zlfan]

iphone 15 pro max now has 1 inch/s16 sensor and can do 4k 60p with great ibis. Some other phones even have u43 sensors. It is just a matter of time for some phone company to come up with some cinema phones with a s35 sensor. 

Once the "cinema phone" comes, the cinema world will be changing paradigm quickly. Many old rules just can not hold any more. The so called 24p for cinema, 30p for news, 60p for sports and action and gaming, will be under serious tests. Personally, I think these ps are just tradition, than pure scientific optimization, and thus, will fade away with time. 

[zlfan]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:02 PM, PannySVHS said:

You always lol about your own thong humor? Why? What's funny to you about forcing yourself into imagining a legendary and awesome dp in a thong? You ever seen a thong without a ridiculed context? This is a Dslm cinematography forum..Behave to the least of necessary standards or leave to where you came from, a life which shall be much more than trolling.

Every joke has its meaning. You just did not get it. 

[zlfan]

17 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Not exactly.

 

We have two possible perwpectives on this one:

 

Seeing democratization as something welcome. It really is. But not without flaws such as the one mentioned. When people have no structure, as for instance, knowledge in order to be able to manage such access.

 

I meant instead though, when the wider the less.

Because of that need to reach everyone, the more the better. In this case, it is often the more the lower.

Communication becomes poorer. Standards come down from something higher, better, more sophisticated, not seen as something necessarily elitist but high-ranking content, complex to the other side of the coin for something capable to be absorbed by many. That's what mainstream means more invariably than it should.

Wider doesn't necessarily bring anything better or higher. Lots of times, just down. Yes, unfortunately. This is the real drama our medium lives. (Not such frame rate uproar... the wheel is invented!)

 

- EAG :- )

Elitism has its short comings and so with the populism. Neither is perfect. Both can be abused. 

Let's use celluloid as an example. Kodak was the number one in film production, followed by Fuji. Kodak invented the digital back, yet could not transit to the digital age, and went bankrupt. Kodak is considered as the elite group of the film age, yet cannot accommodate to the new age due to the incoming new technology platform. Kodak's arrogance based on its leading role in film making caused its blindness to the new digital age. 

On the other hand, populism may kill the innovation. For example, The Hobbit's DP had to give up his exploration on hfr to please movie critics to improve his movies' ticket box profit. From his stand point, he gave up his higher understanding to lower crowd because the lower crowd has the power to influence the even lower uneducated to not buy the ticket to watch hobbit in theater. 

Pure artists maintain their own original ideas normally will have poor and broken lives. 

 

[zlfan]

1 hour ago, zlfan said:

you see, you don't have any convincing data to support why eu sets 25p as the standard. 

if 24p is the holy grail like some of you think, if 24p is fundamental to cinematography,  just like light speed to modern physics, eu should set 24p as its standard. 

and why 25p, not 23p? both are 1p away from 24p. 

as you can see, when we dig more, we can tell this 24p is mandatorily chosen, not optimized. otherwise, there should be data supporting why 24p is superior to 25p and 23p, and so on. 

And we can deduct more, if 23-25p is so similar, there is 3p difference within this range, then another 3p up is 29p, basically 29.97 or 30p, why is 29.97p or 30p is so different from 23-25p, just like two totally different worlds? There are no data supporting this kind of mandatory categorization. 

As I mentioned earlier, 30p was associated with small sensor eng cameras and was looked down by S35 cinema world. Nowadays, S35 and Vista Vision sensor cameras are so accessible, 30p vs 24p vs 60p on large sensor cameras is just a matter of changing some menu options. The so called 24p aesthetics came from the large s35 sensor film cameras era just cannot hold in the current digital cinema time. 

It is just like Alexa was hailed as the holy grail of digital cinema. Although F35 may trench Alexa with its ccd striped sensor, the whole cinema world embrace the Alexa as the gold standard. Now, many cameras have dual gain sensors and have similar dr to the first generation of Alexa series, although may not be as good as Alexa 35. For normal scenes, even experienced dps cannot tell which camera is which, when comparing the latest Red and Venice 2 and Alexa. 

Technology has been developing so fast, many early rules in the last ten years may not hold in the next 10 years. This 24p rule has a longer history, but still may not hold in the future digital world neither.  

[zlfan]

Anyways, it is fun to have this kind of online debate. No need to be personal. Just have fun debating or watching. LOL. 

 

[Emanuel]

@zlfan with the due respect and pretty friendly... what else? ; )

Please let this community know WTH of shit you're smoking? : D

I'm saying this 'cause people respond to you and you insist on the same argument as before like going on circles... LOL

You obviously don't read the replies you ask, as a lot of others among us have expressed such concern about so particular world of your own, dude... : P

[Fatalfury]

Yada, yada, yada - 24 fps looks great and that's why it's still 99.9999% of filmmakers choice even if they aren't technologically limited to use it. At the same time we are still limited to 50/60p, should higher frame rate is needed, but...

....look at this (the effect is especially noticeable when viewed full screen):

For comparison, same director.

Isn't it obvious? 

Here is Gemini Man in 24p if anyone would like to compare:

_

Yet interestingly, Gemini Man was shot in 120p. Would really love to see for curiosity sake but it's not available anywhere in 120fps. Is there even a video player that can play 120fps in real time, available at all in 2023?

[Jedi Master]

18 hours ago, Emanuel said:

24p -- the same applies for the mechanisms which produce the mainstream, both are not the wheel invented in the past tense, something prone to change. No. They are valid yesterday, today and tomorrow. That's the big mistake of such argument :- )

Just because something has been invented doesn't mean it can't be improved. Like the wheel. This is probably what it looked like right after it was invented. Can you imagine what today would be like if the wheel was never improved? We'd all be driving horse carts with wheels sliced from the cross-section of a tree trunk.

 

[Jedi Master]

5 hours ago, Fatalfury said:

....look at this (the effect is especially noticeable when viewed full screen):

Looks fine to me.

[Fatalfury]

52 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

Looks fine to me.

But does it look better?