24p is outdated

[eatstoomuchjam]

9 hours ago, zlfan said:

I set my epic-x mysterium-x to 5k 60p 2.40 5:1. I used 5k 24p 2.0 3:1. I don't see significant improvement over r1mx 4.5k 24p 2.40 7.5:1. 

What difference did you expect to see?  4.5K vs 5K is barely any different and unless you're doing heavy grading or SFX work, going from 3:1 to 7.5:1 compression of raw footage should result in minimal impact to the visible image.

[zlfan]

initially, 24 fps and cameras were motorized due to the need to synchronize with sound. 

 

when I watch Chaplin's soundless movies, I really enjoy them, and I think they are cinematic. like city lights, modern times, and earlier ones. sometimes he even used rack focusing. Chaplin was during the transition period of 16p soundless to 24p sound. I think 24p effects are exaggerated and glorified and even sacrified afterwards. 

 

[zlfan]

Black Magic just announced a new full frame 12 k cinema camera, can do 12k 60p. The higher resolution, the more severe dizziness if there is camera movement. For example, sd 480 shaking and panning does not give much dizzy feeling, but 1080p is much worse, 4k is even worse. 12k with 60p is much smoother than 12k 24p in moving scenes, due to the high resolution. 

[zlfan]

I just watched the gold rush 1925. where is the 24p magic? why am I still enjoying the story and composition and action such much? lol.

[JulioD]

Hey HFR nerds, your two time Oscar winning director pinup boy changed his mind and now says HFR sucks.

"You cannot blame audiences for not liking it because it's bad"  - Ang Lee

https://www.indiewire.com/news/general-news/ang-lee-bruce-lee-biopic-wont-be-3d-1234969304/

[fuzzynormal]

8 hours ago, JulioD said:

Hey HFR nerds, your two time Oscar winning director pinup boy changed his mind and now says HFR sucks.

"You cannot blame audiences for not liking it because it's bad"  - Ang Lee

https://www.indiewire.com/news/general-news/ang-lee-bruce-lee-biopic-wont-be-3d-1234969304/

Well, I dislike HFR as much as the next guy, but the reason he's abandoning it is because of the ecosystemic/economic context within the movie industry which doesn't want to take visual risks with their production investment, not because Ang personally doesn't like HFR.

Aside from that, never been sure why he's enamored with the look.  I've read his rationale, but it still doesn't jibe.  HFR pulls movies way too close to visual "reality" and narrative film are stories.  Make 'em ups.  Pretend.  The nature of 24p's look is a huge asset. 

[zlfan]

there is a cost effect ratio here too. other than magic lantern cameras, uncompressed raw cameras are extremely expensive, like the Alexa family. on the other hand, a 60p camera with a low end codec can be very cheap. doing action packed shots, the latter one will be more suitable. try a 24p thin codec camera, you can hardly see clearly anything once the camera is panning, tilting, or doing other complexing movements. 

[zlfan]

c300 og with nano flash 280 mbps I frame 59.94i 1080p is good enough for slow panning. c300 og's stock 50 mbps 23.97p and 29.97p 1080p are not usable for slow panning. I use 59.94p timeline in davinci resolve, and get 60p footage, seems fine. 

[kye]

10 minutes ago, zlfan said:

c300 og with nano flash 280 mbps I frame 59.94i 1080p is good enough for slow panning. c300 og's stock 50 mbps 23.97p and 29.97p 1080p are not usable for slow panning. I use 59.94p timeline in davinci resolve, and get 60p footage, seems fine. 

Please provide a clear and objective definition for "not usable".

[Davide DB]

3 hours ago, zlfan said:

c300 og with nano flash 280 mbps I frame 59.94i 1080p is good enough for slow panning. c300 og's stock 50 mbps 23.97p and 29.97p 1080p are not usable for slow panning. I use 59.94p timeline in davinci resolve, and get 60p footage, seems fine. 

I will tell you a secret...

https://phfx.com/tools/panSpeedCalc/

 

[zlfan]

even the latest fx9/fx6/fx3 will have issues in slow panning if they are not operated in raw modes, how can other lesser cams survive the 24p yet the thin codecs?

I have tested with nano flash 280 mbps iframe, on f3 at 24p, still the slow panning looks jumpy, although much better than the stock codec. at 30 p / 59.94 i sdi output on c300 og, the nanoflash 280 mbps iframe really is smooth. so that 6 frames really matter, even when using 280 mbps iframe, a codec is similar to or higher bit rate than the prores raw. how can thin codecs of 24p provide "filmic panning"? oh, does filmic really mean fuzzy or dizzy? lol. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

You should really post examples of what you mean.  I don't think I've noticed a decent IPB codec (like most modern H265) look that much different from an all-i codec for what I'd think of as slow panning.  I have noticed differences between cameras with higher and lower RS, even when doing what I'd think of as slow panning, but it's not out of the question that some of that was entirely in my head.  Anyway, using vague and heavily subjective terms like "slow" and "looks jumpy" is going to just result in a bunch of people arguing without anybody even really being sure what the other one is arguing about.

[kye]

Also, to add onto the very good points of @eatstoomuchjam, you likely have a display problem too.

Most modern computer devices (and potentially lots of smart TVs too??) run a 60Hz display.  This will display 30p and 60p image streams perfectly with equal spacing between each new frame, but put a 24p video on there and you get jitter because the display isn't updating at a whole multiple of 24Hz.

Displays at 120p or 240p will not have this problem, or if you drive the display with a 24Hz input and have the display in the 24Hz mode.

This is the primary reason that I own a BM Ultrastudio Monitor 3G - it drives your reference monitor with the exact frame rate and resolution of the timeline, without any jitter.  

I've compared 24p vs 30p vs 60p videos on a 60p display as well as through the Ultrastudio and there's a big difference - I prefer the 24p in both scenarios because it doesn't look so artificially smooth as 30p and 60p, but depending on what you value in an image and how you perceive motion, the jitter might tip the balance for you.  

Unless you've got a dedicated output driving the monitor in the timeline frame rate, you really can't say anything at all about each frame rate because you're not seeing them properly.

[Clark Nikolai]

On 5/20/2024 at 5:36 PM, kye said:

Most modern computer devices (and potentially lots of smart TVs too??) run a 60Hz display.  This will display 30p and 60p image streams perfectly with equal spacing between each new frame, but put a 24p video on there and you get jitter because the display isn't updating at a whole multiple of 24Hz.

A trick if you're sending a video file to somewhere else for exhibition and therefore wouldn't have control over things like this is to put the 24 FPS file into a 30 or 60 FPS timeline, then output. This way you control how the 24 gets mapped into 30 or 60.

[kye]

9 minutes ago, Clark Nikolai said:

A trick if you're sending a video file to somewhere else for exhibition and therefore wouldn't have control over things like this is to put the 24 FPS file into a 30 or 60 FPS timeline, then output. This way you control how the 24 gets mapped into 30 or 60.

Interesting idea.  How would you do it?

I would have thought that every device would do it the same way, but maybe not..?

[Clark Nikolai]

On 5/22/2024 at 7:22 AM, kye said:

Interesting idea.  How would you do it?

I would have thought that every device would do it the same way, but maybe not..?

Some TVs and media players interpolate frames. It can be turned off of course but if you're not around for that then it's up to whoever on the other end to do that and they might not even know about things like that.

It's pretty simple, just in Final Cut (or any NLE), make a timeline at 30 or 60 FPS, then put the 23 FPS file in it. Make the settings such that the NLE doesn't interpolate but just duplicates frames, then output.

The same with deinterlacing, it's better if I do the deinterlacing (and upscaling of SD videos). Then they receive an HD progressive file that technically at a high frame rate so any equipment down the pipe doesn't mess with it.

[mercer]

So... is the premise of this entire thread based on user error... fast forward one month and the OP will be a 24p true believer.

[fuzzynormal]

1 hour ago, Clark Nikolai said:

a timeline at 60 FPS, then put the 23 FPS file in it.

I've done this for our film festival screeners.  6 or 7 movies in a block?  Put 'em on a single 60p timeline.  The tech from the submissions are all over the map and it's best to rise above it all. 

Let it look as the filmmaker has made it.

[Clark Nikolai]

5 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

I've done this for our film festival screeners.  6 or 7 movies in a block?  Put 'em on a single 60p timeline.  The tech from the submissions are all over the map and it's best to rise above it all. 

Let it look as the filmmaker has made it.

And of course I meant to type 24 (not 23) there.  I find the projectionists can vary a lot in experience. They can range from the very experienced to volunteers. If you can make your file fool proof it'll hopefully look good.

[kye]

9 hours ago, Clark Nikolai said:

Some TVs and media players interpolate frames. It can be turned off of course but if you're not around for that then it's up to whoever on the other end to do that and they might not even know about things like that.

It's pretty simple, just in Final Cut (or any NLE), make a timeline at 30 or 60 FPS, then put the 23 FPS file in it. Make the settings such that the NLE doesn't interpolate but just duplicates frames, then output.

The same with deinterlacing, it's better if I do the deinterlacing (and upscaling of SD videos). Then they receive an HD progressive file that technically at a high frame rate so any equipment down the pipe doesn't mess with it.

Ah, right...  I'd forgotten about the frame interpolation.  Doing it your way bakes in the 3:2 pattern, but at least it won't look like someone accidentally slipped the audience something in their drinks!