24p is outdated

[Emanuel]

5 hours ago, JulioD said:

It’s my view that 24 FPS is the goldilocks temporal resolution for listening to a story. 

Realism?? Give me a break. What’s realistic about a Death Star? 

Human beings are story tellers.  Religion is stories. Sitting around a fire telling stories, making sense of the world is what we do that makes us human. 
 

Representation.  Not realism.  

Right. But realism is not absence of representation.

The problem here is people come to discuss things they don't have clue about : )

With the due respect, it's not because someone is a skilled film professional in one or another technical aspect of this craft, I will discuss film aesthetics from some other departments of this same craft with.

To each their own. And opinion doesn't convert a fact either.

There is who understands it and who doesn't and never will.

- EAG :- )

[Andrew Reid]

12 hours ago, zlfan said:

i have a youtube channel, kind of news oriented. i use all kinds of cameras i have at 24p 30 60p and aspec tatios of 16:9 and 2.4. no viewer complains. with thew new platform like youtube, the old hierarchy of distribution of theater, network, etc does not rule. and youtube etc is very tolerant. 

I found with my own YouTube stuff that 24p and vintage lenses don't suit the content!

It is better to film it as reality, with a clear view on the studio and myself.

So this is why blanket statements don't work... It all depends on what you're filming.

[Andrew Reid]

7 hours ago, JulioD said:

It’s my view that 24 FPS is the goldilocks temporal resolution for listening to a story.

I agree, 24fps is more abstract, less in-the-face, and this means it is a tool to deploy with a logic behind using it. At this sweet spot frame rate it lets the audience's mind wonder, they will have more capacity for the emotional impact of the story rather than sitting there like hypnotised chickens or a droog in A Clockwork Orange with matchsticks in his eyes.

It is more melecony, more wistful and poetic, can you imagine converting a Tarkovsky film and all that visual poetry and symbolism to an in-your-face documentary/reality style at 60fps, it just wouldn't suit it.

A quiet scene of dialogue and suspense is not supposed to be a visceral hypnotic rollercoaster either, and the camera is there simply to observe and not supposed to snap you out of the story, cinema is supposed to immerse you in it and 24p does that very well.

On the other hand if I want to feel like I am watching reality through a window, then 8K 60p would do the job perfectly but the higher the resolution, visual fidelity and frame rate, the more the emphasis in your brain changes towards the visual stimuli and your mind has less capacity remaining for everything else, such as feeling emotional impact of the story and so on.

This is why the Hobbit was such a bad fit for 3D 48p, it became hypnotic as if you were standing on a film set looking at props, rather than escaping into a fairytale fantasy. Nobody laughed, nobody engaged emotionally in the screenings I went to of it. Although that was partly the fault of it being a bit rubbish, the format didn't help at all.

[Jedi Master]

10 hours ago, kye said:

Look at the visual design / colour grading for a start....

Ah, you mean the faddish "orange and teal" look? I find that weird. To me, it adds nothing to a movie. I hope that trend goes away soon, and it takes shaky hand-held footage, and artificial grain with it to the rubbish heap of history.

Movies, IMO, are about plot, dialog, and, secondarily, action (when appropriate). I couldn't care less about what some production designer thinks is high art. Asteroid City was an extreme example.

I guess I'm just different than most people on this forum. While others prefer movies to be art above all, even if it deviates from reality, I prefer technical accuracy.

[Jedi Master]

9 hours ago, Django said:

and still hold on to a couple hundred (thousand?) rare 12" vinyl releases. So yeah I don't wanna argue either (analog vs digital is an old ever lasting debate and today I do use digital audio tools mainly from Universal Audio) but lets just say I'm pretty vested in the subject matter too 😉 .

Fair enough! I took the opposite path: as soon as I got my first CD player, I took all my LPs down to the local music store, sold them, and bought CDs to replace them. It took almost a decade to replace everything, but I eventually did.

[zlfan]

10 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I want to see my world in 12K and 120fps, how our planet is getting fried and resources being plundered by power hungry production, distribution and consumption of 12K 120fps content and hardware.

It will be so clear like looking outside ze window, I would have cleaned before.

Zeeing izzt beliehieving! I will see our planet is in trouble.

Before I will have consumpted some Teletubbies in 50 or 60p. 50p is foreign to me though.

 

 

What are the other cams you have? Which one would be the one and only for you? What frame rate did you shoot mostly in? Have you done a short film with your red one mx in higher framerates?

r1mx hfr 120p 2k is not good. r1mx is not for hfr. r1mx 24p 4.5k ws redcode 42 is the best it can have. 

[Snowfun]

I just got home from the Porsche garage without the 911 I ordered. Someone on the bus there told me that petrol engines were outdated… 

[zlfan]

this whole realism vs dreamlike is just a later made up to justify 24p. 

avatar to me is surreal, hobbit is fantasy, titanic is epic, guess what, all were shot on 48p. when i watch titanic, i never think that this is just a real tv show, and the heroes and hero are real life like. to me, they are above life for sure. the cinematography is just stunning. not to say avatar and hobbit, although they are not dramas, the cinematography is definitely not at real tv show level. 

are these box failures? go check yourself. all are 5 times profit ratios. and all are good movies worthy watching even many years later. 

no matter what the critics say about them, these are legendary movies to viewers. there is no point denying this to justify 24p. 

[zlfan]

7 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

I just got home from the Porsche garage without the 911 I ordered. Someone on the bus there told me that petrol engines were outdated… 

there is no point using analogy of cars. probably you just took off from a steam engine train. enjoy yourself. people may think you are a fanboy. 

[JulioD]

4 minutes ago, zlfan said:

this whole realism vs dreamlike is just a later made up to justify 24p. 

OK

 

4 minutes ago, zlfan said:

avatar to me is surreal, hobbit is fantasy, titanic is epic, guess what, all were shot on 48p. when i watch titanic, i never think that this is just a real tv show, and the heroes and hero are real life like. to me,

 

You just screwed your own argument.  Titanic was photographed at good old 24 FPS.  You can’t even tell.  

Maybe just turn the fluid motion feature on your TV on and be happy.

Avatar is a 3D cartoon.  Perfect for hyper realism.  Great use of HFR for that specific story telling example.

Hobbit was a disaster.  So much that they CHANGED the approach back for subsequent films.

You’re alone in this opinion.

[KnightsFan]

28 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

Movies, IMO, are about plot, dialog, and, secondarily, action (when appropriate).

And do you prefer the plot, dialog, and action to accurately represent real life exclusively? Or do you ever like characters that are braver, stronger, or more villainous than real life? My whole point in my first post was that deviations from reality are used in every aspect of films and storytelling in general.

30 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

While others prefer movies to be art above all, even if it deviates from reality, I prefer technical accuracy.

But Kye's post wasn't about the color grade only, it was the entire visual design. We don't light real life the same way we light movies. What is the difference in your opinion between unrealistic lighting design, and unrealistic motion design?

 

There are no wrong opinions of course, I'm just asking questions to explain my point of view on it.

[zlfan]

1 minute ago, JulioD said:

OK

 

You just screwed your own argument.  Titanic was photographed at good old 24 FPS.

Avatar is a 3D cartoon.  Perfect for hyper realism.  Great use of HFR for that specific story telling example.

Hobbit was a disaster.  So much that they CHANGED the approach back for subsequent films.

You’re alone in this opinion.

hobbit was a disaster?! lol.

for what? losing money? 

i enjoy watching the series very much. a lot of people i know like it. 

[zlfan]

3 minutes ago, JulioD said:

OK

 

You just screwed your own argument.  Titanic was photographed at good old 24 FPS.

Avatar is a 3D cartoon.  Perfect for hyper realism.  Great use of HFR for that specific story telling example.

Hobbit was a disaster.  So much that they CHANGED the approach back for subsequent films.

You’re alone in this opinion.

interesting. 3d is hyper realism. then other 3d movies are realistic shows and how come many of them were shot on 24p. lol. if christopher nolan knows that some dps think that gravity is a reality show, and sandra bullock knows that she is just a real life middle aged desperate woman in a reality show. how sad will they be......  

[Jedi Master]

20 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

Someone on the bus there told me that petrol engines were outdated… 

They are. 😉

Too many moving parts. Too many things to break. A 911’s six cylinder engine has six pistons, six connecting rods, 24 valves, a crankshaft, water pump, oil pump, timing chain, and more. An electric motor has one moving part.

And then you have the pollution they all produce…

[Snowfun]

17 minutes ago, zlfan said:

people may think you are a fanboy. 

A fanboy of what exactly? Porsche? (Thank you)

24 fps is an option. Some will use it. Others won’t. But no-one will be dictated to.  It would, in my opinion, be more useful to start a discussion about the various merits of different frame rates rather than simply claiming it is “outdated”. I personally use 25 but that’s another issue.

[zlfan]

2 minutes ago, Snowfun said:

A fanboy of what exactly? Porsche? (Thank you)

24 fps is an option. Some will use it. Others won’t. But no-one will be dictated to.  It would, in my opinion, be more useful to start a discussion about the various merits of different frame rates rather than simply claiming it is “outdated”. I personally use 25 but that’s another issue.

people taking steam engine trains are fan boys these days. as long as you make a reasonable theory to convince people that this is dream like, not the reality. it is all about selling skills. 

[Snowfun]

6 minutes ago, Jedi Master said:

They are. 😉

Too many moving parts. Too many things to break. A 911’s six cylinder engine has six pistons, six connecting rods, 24 valves, a crankshaft, water pump, oil pump, timing chain, and more. An electric motor has one moving part.

And then you have the pollution they all produce…

You, perhaps deliberately, miss the point. Just because something is “outdated” doesn’t diminish its desirability. Just because there are a lot of arguments in favour of 60 fps doesn’t diminish the fact that a lot of people prefer 24. There is no objectively correct fps!

[zlfan]

1 minute ago, Snowfun said:

There is no objectively correct fps!

This point I totally agree. Art is an expression, as long as you convey your ideas and emotions successfully, you are good. or going further, as long as you enjoy yourself, you are good.  

[zlfan]

10 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I want to see my world in 12K and 120fps, how our planet is getting fried and resources being plundered by power hungry production, distribution and consumption of 12K 120fps content and hardware.

It will be so clear like looking outside ze window, I would have cleaned before.

Zeeing izzt beliehieving! I will see our planet is in trouble.

Before I will have consumpted some Teletubbies in 50 or 60p. 50p is foreign to me though.

 

 

What are the other cams you have? Which one would be the one and only for you? What frame rate did you shoot mostly in? Have you done a short film with your red one mx in higher framerates?

Do F3 and F5s justify my words? LOL. Anyways, it is understandable, this is a camera forum.  

If this is a clothing forum, probably I have no right to speak out. 

[JulioD]

33 minutes ago, zlfan said:

This point I totally agree. Art is an expression, as long as you convey your ideas and emotions successfully, you are good. or going further, as long as you enjoy yourself, you are good.  

Maybe you should lead with that instead of making troll-baiting posts with a title of “24p is outdated”.

You can’t even tell when watching the difference between 24P and HFR.

It’s an objectively wrong statement. End of story.