World's smallest DSLM that shoots 4k?

[John Matthews]

I'm still impressed with the GX850/GX800/GF9. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is still the smallest 4k DSLM setup. It weighs a whopping 269g and 55g for the 14mm f/2.5 lens. Not bad for January 2017. Still waiting for any sort of a replacement.

[John Matthews]

Perhaps a more telling image:

[kye]

Yep, that sure is small....

If Panasonic do announce an updated small-form-factor MILC it'll be interesting what they choose.  They sure have made some progress with sensor design since the GX85 / GF9 came out, so hopefully it'll be a good bump in spec 🙂 

Do you have any footage to share @John Matthews?

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Do you have any footage to share @John Matthews?

I need to look, but I'd like to share some; maybe even dig some out from the digital dust in my archives. The challenge is sharing without showing too much of my personal life, which is what I usually film. Might have to go for some new stuff.

[kye]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I need to look, but I'd like to share some; maybe even dig some out from the digital dust in my archives. The challenge is sharing without showing too much of my personal life, which is what I usually film. Might have to go for some new stuff.

This is the same for me, the good stuff is all personal.

I make lots of little edits as camera tests, and put a reasonable amount of time into the edit, adding music etc, to keep as a momento.  So by the time I've done that the last thing I want to do is another public edit and re-do the frame-level editing and music and sound design etc.

One thing I did do, which is a little besides the point but might be useful, is I found that I wanted to repeatedly reference clips from various cameras and projects, typically to try new colour grading techniques, but sometimes for other stuff too.  What I did was I got organised and found the best clips from each trip / shoot and copied them onto a folder on my SSD as reference clips.  Under that I had two folders for each camera, one for clips I can share in public and the other for personal stuff.  Then I made a timeline with all the personal clips from each camera first, then a gap, then all the publicly sharable clips from each camera after that.  Then if I have an idea for trying out some technique I can quickly pull that up, maybe take a copy of the timeline, and experiment on footage from across all the cameras I've shot on over the years.  I've found it really handy since I did it actually, and I refer to it quite a bit.

[PannySVHS]

Gx800 and Gf7 have all auto only in video iirc. So I would suggest GX85 as an answer if we are talking about a mature video mode .

[ac6000cw]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Gx800 and Gf7 have all auto only in video iirc.

On the gx800, if you're happy with 4k30p, you can use '4k photo' mode to shoot video with PASM control. Also you can use the 'flicker reduction' menu setting to fix the shutter speed to 1/120, 1/100, 1/60 or 1/50 in normal video mode.

[kye]

3 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Gx800 and Gf7 have all auto only in video iirc. So I would suggest GX85 as an answer if we are talking about a mature video mode .

My GF3 is like this - full auto in video mode.

A "cheat" workflow I developed is this:

• Put camera into full-manual mode, base ISO and 180 shutter
• Using a fully manual lens, set desired aperture / focus / ND to get correct exposure
• Hit dedicated video record button

The camera will then automatically adjust ISO and SS, preferring longer SS until at 360 shutter before raising ISO above base ISO, so it will stay around the right settings.  It will still be doing auto-WB too, but you can't have everything 🙂 

[John Matthews]

The workflow I've found is either shoot in "4k Photo" at 30fps, which is fine most of the time. Everything will be manual in this mode when set to "M".

Otherwise, do the following:

1. Turn on flicker reduction to 1/50.
2. Put it into 4k photo mode(you'll get the framing correct) with dial on Shutter priority (set it at 1/50). Adjust the exposure with exposure compensation. You can also use a grey card. Half-press the shutter button (this will be the ISO and aperture settings in "P Mode" if you hit the video record button). You can adjust a VND filter if necessary.
3. Now, how do you get the camera to stop adjusting? Map a function button to AEL. This will lock in the exposure but only after you start recording. Your shutter, aperture, and ISO are now locked. Use manual focus with touch and lock.

Personally, I've found that "4K Photo" mode works best and is the most usable, especially for 30fps if you need consistent exposure every time. Otherwise, set the desired fps and put it into "P Mode" and just not stress about it. It does a great job. Use the AEL to lock in the exposure so it doesn't change.

Prior to the GX850, you couldn't use the AEL in video mode (exceptions?, maybe GF7).

[John Matthews]

7 hours ago, kye said:

It will still be doing auto-WB too, but you can't have everything 🙂 

The GX800 keeps its WB settings with my method above.

[kye]

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

The GX800 keeps its WB settings with my method above.

Even better!

[John Matthews]

12 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Gx800 and Gf7 have all auto only in video iirc. So I would suggest GX85 as an answer if we are talking about a mature video mode .

If size and weight are of max importance, the GX850 is a good choice unless you need easy manual exposure in video; otherwise, I think the Olympus options are better than the GX85. The lightest one with great features would be the E-P7 at 337g. It has full-sensor readout (5.6k-ish downsampled) and better contrast-based AF, but no EVF. I've decided that I'd rather have less weight than a crappy EVF like on the G100 (atrocious) and GX85 (poor).

[PannySVHS]

Never had an EP7 but it seems pretty nice. GX85 has the perfect form factor and usuability for me. Crop in 4K allows me to use some super fun C mount lenses, as it's between S16 and mft size sensor. Used ones go for around 250 Euro. Hard to beat quality vs price ratio. GX800 manual mode for 25p sounds indeed fiddly. I would have to try it out myself but then I would just rather take my GX85. 😊

[John Matthews]

8 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Never had an EP7 but it seems pretty nice. GX85 has the perfect form factor and usuability for me. Crop in 4K allows me to use some super fun C mount lenses, as it's between S16 and mft size sensor. Used ones go for around 250 Euro. Hard to beat quality vs price ratio. GX800 manual mode for 25p sounds indeed fiddly. I would have to try it out myself but then I would just rather take my GX85. 😊

I really enjoyed the GX80 when I had it. It was, in my opinion, the absolute best value proposition Lumix has ever made in the given situation in 2016. Its output still looks great in 2023 (and beyond for that matter). In 2016, Lumix had some serious mojo with this camera and I was expecting great things. Unfortunately, the ONE thing they needed to do didn't become a reality until late 2023 in M43. Let's hope they get back on the right track. The ONE thing, right NOW, in 2023-2024 is to release a M43 camera that is small, PDAF, full-sensor readout camera. It's not a priority anymore, but retro-priority, meaning it should have already been done. If Olympus could do it in 2019 in a E-M5 iii at 414g (lighter than a GX80 and WAY better EVF + WEATHER-SEALED), my expectations are under 400g and 4k 60fps or better.

I'd also be happy with a 270g update to the GX850 or LX10. I want PDAF, G100-style updated IBIS (which wasn't that bad) with full-sensor readout, manual video mode, better audio quality and better thermals (longer than 5 minute recording in 4k). Do not change the screen. Do not change the look. Don't care about 10 bit. Don't care about lack of anti-aliasing filter. Don't care about LOG. Don't care about 4k60.

[PannySVHS]

10bit 150mbit and HLG please @John Matthews😊

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

10bit 150mbit and HLG please @John Matthews😊

Do you know of any Cameras the size of the GX85 that shoot with those specs? The OM5 shoots in C4k at 200mbps in a variable bitrate; so, it should be possible but it's not 10bit.

[PannySVHS]

None. Closest would be a 10bit Shlony apsc. So again, 10bit HLG GX camera with 4K from full sensor and perfect HD quality  for the launch price of the GX85, 799 Usd, 699 Euro. Please 😊

[John Matthews]

11 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

None. Closest would be a 10bit Shlony apsc. So again, 10bit HLG GX camera with 4K from full sensor and perfect HD quality  for the launch price of the GX85, 799 Usd, 699 Euro. Please 😊

Yes. Exactly. Maybe I'm doing something wrong, but when I grade (and I don't do much), I rarely see that much difference between 4k 8bit and 4k 10bit. Back in the day, I'd see moiré and banding in so much 8bit 1080p footage and it really made sense to shoot it in 10bit; however, it would seem that as soon as my footage went 4k, moiré and banding were disappeared. In the case of the GX850, it has super-sharp 1080p but usually ruined due to moiré- way more than my GH2 under the same circumstances. In any case, the 4k fixed it and made it more detailed.

[John Matthews]

25 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

were disappeared

*"disappeared" or "were gone"- I make too many stupid mistakes when I write because I don't read it again (until it's too late). I should send all my comments through ChatGPT before. "Correct my English: "*". That's what I do when I write in French now- works like a charm.

[kye]

17 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I really enjoyed the GX80 when I had it. It was, in my opinion, the absolute best value proposition Lumix has ever made in the given situation in 2016. Its output still looks great in 2023 (and beyond for that matter). In 2016, Lumix had some serious mojo with this camera and I was expecting great things. Unfortunately, the ONE thing they needed to do didn't become a reality until late 2023 in M43. Let's hope they get back on the right track. The ONE thing, right NOW, in 2023-2024 is to release a M43 camera that is small, PDAF, full-sensor readout camera. It's not a priority anymore, but retro-priority, meaning it should have already been done. If Olympus could do it in 2019 in a E-M5 iii at 414g (lighter than a GX80 and WAY better EVF + WEATHER-SEALED), my expectations are under 400g and 4k 60fps or better.

I'd also be happy with a 270g update to the GX850 or LX10. I want PDAF, G100-style updated IBIS (which wasn't that bad) with full-sensor readout, manual video mode, better audio quality and better thermals (longer than 5 minute recording in 4k). Do not change the screen. Do not change the look. Don't care about 10 bit. Don't care about lack of anti-aliasing filter. Don't care about LOG. Don't care about 4k60.

In practical terms, how much difference do you think that the size / weight differences between the GX850 and GX85 makes?  Genuine question.  

For example, is there something you find you're able to do with the smaller form-factor that can't be done with the larger one?

I ask because I have the GF3, which is of a similar size to the GX850, but in many ways I see that it's too small.  Panasonic has made a good attempt at the ergonomics with little grip formations, but I find it too small for my hands, and also by the time that you add any non-tiny lens then the size of the camera body no longer really contributes much to the overall size of the rig.

In some ways I really wanted the GF3 to be passable in 1080p, but whenever I shoot with it the softness of the 1080p is too soft for me, and the micro-jitters also too much, so by the time you add a lens with OIS, you're better off with the GX85 IBIS and a smaller lens.

I must admit that this thread has made me pick up the GF3 again.  It's currently sitting with the 15mm F8 body-cap lens on it, and me in a bit of a mental loop.  

I want the GF3 to work - the small size seems like fun, but if I use a small aperture lens then I'm better off using my phone, and if I want shallow DoF or a vintage lens vibe then the size advantage disappears and I might as well use the GX85.  But then I want to use the GF3, so I lament the fact that the sensor can shoot 12MP RAW stills, but the video is so soft, and I remember the hack that I couldn't get working for it.  Then I just get disappointed about how old tech was needlessly bottlenecked.  Then a day or so later, I see it and it looks like fun, and the cycle starts again!

I shot some test videos on it using a number of different lenses, but I just couldn't get anything on it that wouldn't have been better using something else.  Maybe the GX850 is different in some way?