World's smallest DSLM that shoots 4k?

[kye]

Speaking of lenses, the size of the camera body is only part of the equation.

The smallest lenses I have include...

• Olympus 15mm F8 Body Cap
  Tiny lens, tack-sharp, has all the advantages of a fixed-focus manual prime.  Only downsides are the focusing lever can easily get bumped, and F8 is sloooooow
   
• Panasonic 14mm F2.5
  Fast, sharp, small.  A favourite for a reason!
   
• Laowa 7.5mm F2.0
  Thin but potentially getting too long for convenience / pocketability.
  Fast and sharp, wide with zero distortion, but it's expensive.
   
• SLR Magic 8mm F4.0
  Only one stop slower than the Laowa and not really much smaller, but hugely cheaper.  Ergonomics are crap though - it's designed for drones and the focus mechanism isn't damped, but instead has a locking screw that you have to loosen/tighten every time you want to adjust it.  But, it's so deep DoF that you could easily use it as a fixed-focus lens.

Other interesting small lenses I don't have include:

• 7artisans Photoelectric 18mm f/6.3 UFO
• 7artisans Photoelectric 18mm f/6.3 Mark II
• Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm F2.8 Pancake
• Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7
• Lumix G Vario 12-32mm F3.5-5.6
• Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 EZ

A batch of lenses from AstrHori have shown up on B&H, a manufacturer I've never heard of, which also look small..

• AstrHori 27mm f/2.8 II
• AstrHori 10mm f/8 II
• AstrHori 14mm f/4.5

What are everyone's go-to lenses for these tiny cameras?

Or are you giving the middle finger to the lens size and just being a rockstar?

 

[John Matthews]

2 hours ago, kye said:

What are everyone's go-to lenses for these tiny cameras?

Of those lenses listed above, I have and will continue to use 14mm f/2.5 or 12-32. If I want wider and IS, I use the 12-32 with the .79x wide-angle converter. For low light, I have the Olympus 17mm f/1.8. I've sold the the 20mm (as I thought it would never work well with PDAF, but I think I was wrong about the that. I also loved the Olympus 14-42 EZ for its lens cap accessory that opened when I turned it on and made it a true point and shoot, but again I sold it. Of those other lenses, I'm not that inspired to get them.

In other news, it looks like we won't have another small Panasonic camera for the foreseeable future as the G100D has just been released. It has an updated EVF with OLED (which wasn't the problem with it, rather the OPTICS), but who knows as it might be fixed. It also has a USB-C which is more state-of-the-art. I'm on the fence about this camera and I'll wait for critical reviews. I'm fairly sure it still has the BS 1/500 mechanical shutter and max sync of 1/50. I think I'll just stick with the GX800 or get an OM-5 (which is light-years ahead of the G100D). I have to say Lumix is sneaky with this camera as I'm sure so many people will look at the OM-5 and say: "Crap, it has Micro USB", and then look at the G100D and say: "Perfect, it has USB-C". Never mind the fact the OM-5 has a WAY more accessible SD Card slot.

If you want really small Lumix, it's a sad day because I was really hoping to get something with PDAF and GX85-ish features. OM-5 or E-M5 iii are still the best options. For small and light-weight, it the GX850 with its limitations or the E-P7. Can't say OMDS will win the sales, but they seem to clearly has the better lineup. I expect G100D's to be discounted in November 2024 and super cheap on the used market (with lenses). As I have a big camera/small camera setup, I want more contrast in the terms of size, but not features. Unfortunately, manufacturers continue to dump out one-size-fits-all cameras.

 

[John Matthews]

Here's a review of the G100D. Having known the previous version, I'm 99% sure they filmed in v-log throughout. It looks good. No moiré or banding, even in 8bit as far as I can see. They say the new EVF is good, but who really knows yet. Still, it's 355g, making it slightly heavier than the E-P7 with proper IBIS, better continuous AF and full sensor readout.

 

[ac6000cw]

5 hours ago, kye said:

Other interesting small lenses I don't have include:

• 7artisans Photoelectric 18mm f/6.3 UFO
• 7artisans Photoelectric 18mm f/6.3 Mark II
• Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm F2.8 Pancake
• Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7
• Lumix G Vario 12-32mm F3.5-5.6
• Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 EZ

I own the last three lenses on that list.

The 20mm F1.7 is a nice lens optically, but for video use its AF is noisy and the minimum aperture is F16 (versus F22 for most micro4/3 lenses). No OIS.

The Pana 12-32mm F3.5-5.6 is nice - weighs almost nothing and is very compact when closed and has OIS (with dual-IS support on the GX85 etc.). No manual focus ring, which means no MF on Olympus/OMDS bodies as they don't support MF adjustment via the camera body controls (AFAIK all Olympus lenses have a focus control). Panasonic does support body MF control for it. Tends to be my go-to lens if I'm taking a second camera on a trip, to keep the size down.

Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 EZ - I think it's OK but nothing special - the power zoom isn't especially smooth, but it does have both zoom and focus rings on a slim pancake lens.

[Tim Sewell]

7 hours ago, kye said:

 I have a vague sense that there was some 'gotcha' that steered me away from it.

I recall that it was said to have shocking RS, although others chimed in at the time to say that that was only a show-stopper if you classed it or used it as an action cam, which despite its size, it wasn't.

[ac6000cw]

In the small/light/cheap micro4/3 lens category, the Pan 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 II kit lens is worth considering - twice the length of the 12-32mm, but has a focus ring and (on my copy at least) a smoother zoom ring. Both lenses on a GX85:

[homestar_kevin]

  

11 hours ago, kye said:

I've looked at the E1 before as well, it really is absolutely tiny - almost action camera sized!

What lenses do you use it with?  I must admin that by the time you add a lens then the size advantage is potentially diluted somewhat.

Does it have AF?  I have a vague sense that there was some 'gotcha' that steered me away from it.  The 4K really is great though.  I definitely agree with @John Matthews about the advantage of 4K on these little cameras, even if the 4K isn't that great in absolute terms the mode tends to have more bitrate and when you put it on a 1080p timeline the compression artefacts on edges etc are often smoothed over in the downsampling.

There's definitely a few gotchas on the E1, like using microSD cards and low bitrate. It does have autofocus, but it's really not great. I tend to use it with a wide lens as a plant camera, again mainly for live theater productions where it can be hidden or discretely capturing the band or some other element we can dedicate the camera to capturing. 

I typically use it with either the olympus 9-18mm or the panasonic 14mm, often with a sony wide angle adapter on the front to get a wider image out of the 14mm.  

The size is awesome, but definitely does carry it's own set of issues, for example the camera is insane looking on a typical sized manfrotto 501 QR plate. 

Still a very worthwhile camera to have in the bag and one that can be had pretty cheap. I originally picked mine up for the $200 camera challenge we did on here a few years ago and have been using it on a few gigs a year ever since. 

[John Matthews]

7 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

In the small/light/cheap micro4/3 lens category, the Pan 14-42mm F3.5-5.6 II kit lens is worth considering - twice the length of the 12-32mm, but has a focus ring and (on my copy at least) a smoother zoom ring. Both lenses on a GX85:

I had that lens briefly just before I got the GX85. I really liked the output and usability. I liked it because it didn't seem too sharp. It seemed organic. I'd also like to try the 14-140.

[PannySVHS]

@homestar_kevin 60mbps is not really oozing confidence. The 100mbps Pana codec for 8bit 4k is pretty good, emphasize on pretty. Where is the monitor on this tiny toothpick?:) I love the size.

[eatstoomuchjam]

22 hours ago, kye said:

Does it have AF?  I have a vague sense that there was some 'gotcha' that steered me away from it.  The 4K really is great though.  I definitely agree with @John Matthews about the advantage of 4K on these little cameras, even if the 4K isn't that great in absolute terms the mode tends to have more bitrate and when you put it on a 1080p timeline the compression artefacts on edges etc are often smoothed over in the downsampling.

I had backed the original E1 on Kickstarter or whatever and I kept it around for a while.  I only rarely used it, though, and every time I did, I was disappointed.  It was basically a Micro 4/3 sensor attached to an action camera chipset.  The colors were a bit odd and the dynamic range was extremely limited - with only rudimentary tools for validation of exposure.

I'd say that if you're willing to go for that sort of compromise, you might also consider something like a Sony QX1, assuming that the app still exists for it.  I think Olympus pulled the app for the Air.  The QX1 can only do 1080, though.

If you don't need autofocus and don't care too much about sensor size, you might also consider Back Bone's modified RX0 Mark II.  Then you should be able to get 4kP30 from its 1" sensor (and I think it has a decent HDMI out without insane latency, but maybe I'm wrong?) - and I think it also has a flippy screen.  That'll be the smallest still-shipping 4K camera with interchangeable lenses, I think - though the price is high for what it is.

Similarly, I have the Insta360 One R 1" edition modified by them with a Micro 4/3 mount - that gives a 1" 5.3k sensor.  The only thing that keeps it from being one of the most fun cameras of all time is the lack of HDMI which means focusing on the little screen on the brain or using the smartphone app over wifi.

[homestar_kevin]

15 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@homestar_kevin 60mbps is not really oozing confidence. The 100mbps Pana codec for 8bit 4k is pretty good, emphasize on pretty. Where is the monitor on this tiny toothpick?:) I love the size.

It's definitely a super brittle codec/bit rate combo. There is little to no leeway with the files. There is a hack to bump the bitrate to 100 mbps but I have never done that. The good things about the light codec is a 256 microSD card will record for hours and hours. 

The LCD is a whopping 320 x 240 rear screen. Not entirely useless, but a good way there.

The thing that's really helpful is it connects to your mobile phone with an app like a gopro would that allows you to monitor remotely, change settings and modes, as well as trigger recording. 

[PannySVHS]

100 mbit sounds perfect for what it is. Might be the GH4 sensor, readout and additional crop. Not bad. Kinda thrilled by that little cube. No gas in 2024, even moreso no corny gas. Sorry for the depreciative wording. Just sounds too cool to resist. 😂  I love the fact that you put this little oddity to use and put it on the table. Fascinating nerd gem from the recent past. Perfect camera to observe on this lovely forum imho. So big thanks to you! @homestar_kevin

[kye]

Today we had an early xmas lunch (to avoid the conflicting invitations on the 25th) and I shot it with the GX85 and 12-35mm F2.8.  Shooting was really fast and not under ideal conditions (massive window which is often backlighting people) but it did a great job.

Here are a few random stills, SOOC - zero editing.  

Standard colour profile, with -5 Contrast / Sharpening / NR and 0 Saturation.  People often lower saturation in-camera but I  push my grades to have lots of saturation so I prefer to have the camera do the 8-bit conversion and compression on stronger saturated colours so that I'm not boosting up a weak colour signal in-post.

When I grade it I'll be softening it up, fine-tuning the colours and adding some colour grading secret-sauce but for a someone shooting a family gathering with an 8-bit camera while also being part of the festivities, the images really speak for themselves.

[PannySVHS]

GF3, no way I will be buying that thing:) But you made it shine. @kye Got my LX15 with me for Christmas. It gives the GX85 a good run for the money. The LX15 has been doing great things for me, way above its weightclass. But in two situations it was not performing to my new high expectations which had been awakened by it. Still trying to find out about the parameters which made it perform less stellar on these occasions.

[kye]

To change the subject slightly (and with apologies to @John Matthews) after shooting with my GF3 and 15mm F8 pancake lens I've been thinking about tiny cameras further, and am wondering what the best option would be for the smallest and fastest 4K camera setup without a super-wide lens.

To be specific, I want it to turn it on, aim it, and hit record and be capturing 4K / 100Mbps video in the lowest possible number of seconds.  To this end, auto-everything is preferable, except auto-focus, which has to either be fixed focus or fast enough so I never have to wait for it.  Essentially, I want an action camera, but I don't want the super-wide FOV.

I've re-read the thread, and here are the options I think are on the table:

• Zcam E1 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• GX850 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• Sony RX0 (mk1 or 2)
• iPhone

Things that don't make the cut:

• Cameras that are too big: GX85, Olympus E-P7, Osmo Pocket series
• Too wide FOV: action cameras
• Modifying an action camera with third-party lens

Things I'm not sure about:

• LX10 (is the AF instant and reliable?)

Are there other options I missed?  Other thoughts?

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, kye said:

LX10 (is the AF instant and reliable?)

No specific experience with it, but it's Panasonic; so, single point AF will be stellar.

DSLM cameras have these considerations when quickly shooting:

1. Pocketable or not?
2. Acceptable audio or not?
3. How good are the auto modes? Is Aperture priority acceptable?
4. Do you have a lens cap on it and how fast can it come off?
5. Zoom or prime? Zooms take longer in general.
6. If zoom, power zoom or not? With power zoom, you can get automatic lens cap.
7. Is an ND filter part of the setup?

Maybe there are more questions?

 

[John Matthews]

5 hours ago, kye said:

LX10 (is the AF instant and reliable?)

If I remember correctly, the gotcha is the 4k crop on this camera. I think the widest is around 35mm FF equivalent.

[BTM_Pix]

5 hours ago, kye said:

Things I'm not sure about:

• LX10 (is the AF instant and reliable?)

A couple of things the LX10 has in its favour are the integral automatic slide away lens cap and the lens resume option.

With the latter enabled, when you power on the camera it will automatically return to the last used focal length so its like having a prime attached in that respect.

The caveat I suppose is that if you have it set to a longer focal length for your last shot then that might not what you want to happen on power up but its a selectable option anyway.

The speed of operation of the camera lens wise is also helped by the dedicated aperture ring and the control ring which defaults to being the zoom barrel but auto switches to be a focus ring when you have it in manual focus.

It can also take my Cinelike D/V hack as well which is a bonus if you want to match it to other Lumix cameras.

Beware of the crop when in 4K though (36mm vs 25mm equivalent) and also that the full 5 axis stabilisation only works in HD mode so in 4K you are "limited" to OIS.

As per previous discussions about the LX10, it accommodates ND filters and WA/TC adapters easily via an affixable filter thread adapter.

If you are looking to trade reach and some functionality for a slower lens then the 10x Zoom version of the same camera is called the TZ100. Doesn't get much discussion but its an option for travel when the standard zoom range of the LX10 might be a bit too limiting. It takes the Cinelike D/V hack too.

[PannySVHS]

3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

A couple of things the LX10 has in its favour are the integral automatic slide away lens cap and the lens resume option.

With the latter enabled, when you power on the camera it will automatically return to the last used focal length so its like having a prime attached in that respect.

 

Is there an option for resuming or fixing focal distance as well?

One thing I love on my LX10 is the character of the lens. Using it at F2.8 in its 2/3" 4K mode gives me a DOF equivalent of F8 in S35. I am very fine with that. I actually adore the fact that it crops into 2/3" sensor format, showing me how little sensor estate I need and how little of technical prowess is needed to produce an image of cinematic beauty. The little LX10 provides. Give me that in S16 4K 10bit 150mbit HLG and a MF mode with hard stops. Price it 649 EUR. The HD 24p AVCHD mode seems to be of similar quality like the G6 in it´s best mode. 50p is very brittle though. 25p might be the same.

TZ100 is for sure an interesting camera to buy in 2024 unless one has committed to the non purchase rule for the upcoming year. 🙂

[John Matthews]

9 hours ago, kye said:

• Zcam E1 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• GX850 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• Sony RX0 (mk1 or 2)
• iPhone

I think if you were to say "only the 15mm body cap lens", I'd choose the iPhone. If ergos are the priority, I'd go with the LX10 if you can do with the crop. If diversity of looks is the main priority, I'd go with a GX850 and two lenses: 12-32 and 42.5 IS lenses. Is that small enough, not sure. Personally, I cannot give up ergonomics and I find the LX10's 4k crop and lack of IBIS too limiting.

I went the route of the GX850 for two main reasons: 1) the simplicity of the screen/lack of EVF; 2) Panasonic familiarity.

I love the fact I can put a tiny tripod on it and not care about ibis and be in the shots I make while seeing the framing. As everything I do is related to family, I figure my children want to see me in the shots sometimes, especially since my wife doesn't want to take any shots of me.