World's smallest DSLM that shoots 4k?

[PannySVHS]

I feel you. @kye I would love my G3 to be a G6. When I still had the GF1 it was the same obsessive wish.😊 Video is on all auto though and brittle on the G3, Gf1 only offering 1080i i think. You could try a GM1 or GM5, both sporting great HD. The 24p HD on the GM5 is stellar, just as good as the G6 with nicer color science ooc. GM5 does 50p as well. Haven't tested it yet though.

[ac6000cw]

On 12/16/2023 at 12:29 PM, kye said:

Yep, that sure is small....

If Panasonic do announce an updated small-form-factor MILC it'll be interesting what they choose.  They sure have made some progress with sensor design since the GX85 / GF9 came out, so hopefully it'll be a good bump in spec 🙂 

Do you have any footage to share @John Matthews?

Here are a few old 2160p25 and 1080p50 SOC clips from my GX800 (which I no longer have) - https://drive.google.com/open?id=13vWtrMzGKQ5qR1l2zCr_NBVjIowFuy4V&usp=drive_fs .  All hand-held, probably using the 12-32mm or 14-42mm kit lenses, standard picture profile, shutter priority (using the 'flicker reduction' setting). The train going over the road crossing (P1000474.MP4) shows the rolling shutter nicely.

[John Matthews]

6 hours ago, kye said:

In practical terms, how much difference do you think that the size / weight differences between the GX850 and GX85 makes?  Genuine question.

With a smaller size, there are some limitations. Depending on hand size and pocket size, your mileage may vary. Personally, I like not having to choose between EVF or LCD (I just put an anti-reflective screen protector to see a little better outside). A flip-up screen that moves so easily cannot be understated. Compared to a GH6, the GX850 is the antithesis with tons of limitations AND tons of decisions you DON'T have to make. Compared to a GX85, the GX800 is just a less featured, but again a few less decisions to make- throw it on a tripod and get the shot; not many usable codecs to choose from either. Put it this way, I had a GX880 (that I sold);  I had the G100 (that I sold); I had a GX800 that I dropped; then, I bought another GX800. The GX800 is definitely more fiddly and it's not really designed to be an A-camera, but it works as a complementary camera, especially Lumix. Honestly, it blows away a GF3 (which I also have); in 2023, that's a crash-cam. Also, I love the look of the GX800 (even over the newer GX880).

[John Matthews]

7 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I feel you. @kye I would love my G3 to be a G6. When I still had the GF1 it was the same obsessive wish.😊 Video is on all auto though and brittle on the G3, Gf1 only offering 1080i i think. You could try a GM1 or GM5, both sporting great HD. The 24p HD on the GM5 is stellar, just as good as the G6 with nicer color science ooc. GM5 does 50p as well. Haven't tested it yet though.

I haven't tried the G3 or G6, but I've heard the G6 has some of the best out of camera 1080p.

The GM1 doesn't have the same moiré problems as the GX850 (at least not in the same scenarios/frequencies). Compared to the GM1, the GX800 feels like a toy, but it has better specs and is slightly more usable IMO. Compared to GM5 (never had it-too expensive), again, the GX800 has better specs and the flip-up LCD which is the achilles heal of the GM5, but I'd love to try it. Because Panasonic hasn't made anything new, the prices keep creeping up and there are fewer and fewer on the market. The GX800 will run you 140 euros when all is said and done where as the GM5 is double that and you'll never get 4k.

[kye]

8 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I feel you. @kye I would love my G3 to be a G6. When I still had the GF1 it was the same obsessive wish.😊 Video is on all auto though and brittle on the G3, Gf1 only offering 1080i i think. You could try a GM1 or GM5, both sporting great HD. The 24p HD on the GM5 is stellar, just as good as the G6 with nicer color science ooc. GM5 does 50p as well. Haven't tested it yet though.

Yes, when I was buying the GF3 I read some raving reviews of the GF1 - I don't remember the details now but there was some sort of button layout that was magic to use apparently, but it changed on the GF2 and subsequent models.  I was torn about which to buy, but the GF1 had such a following that GF1s were more expensive to buy than the GF3, even though the kit I got included the GF3, 14-42 kit lens, 14mm f2.5, spare batteries, charger, memory card, screen protector, and a plethora of other bits and pieces.

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

Here are a few old 2160p25 and 1080p50 SOC clips from my GX800 (which I no longer have) - https://drive.google.com/open?id=13vWtrMzGKQ5qR1l2zCr_NBVjIowFuy4V&usp=drive_fs .  All hand-held, probably using the 12-32mm or 14-42mm kit lenses, standard picture profile, shutter priority (using the 'flicker reduction' setting). The train going over the road crossing (P1000474.MP4) shows the rolling shutter nicely.

Thanks, I'll have a closer look over the holidays 🙂 

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

With a smaller size, there are some limitations. Depending on hand size and pocket size, your mileage may vary. Personally, I like not having to choose between EVF or LCD (I just put an anti-reflective screen protector to see a little better outside). A flip-up screen that moves so easily cannot be understated. Compared to a GH6, the GX850 is the antithesis with tons of limitations AND tons of decisions you DON'T have to make. Compared to a GX85, the GX800 is just a less featured, but again a few less decisions to make- throw it on a tripod and get the shot; not many usable codecs to choose from either. Put it this way, I had a GX880 (that I sold);  I had the G100 (that I sold); I had a GX800 that I dropped; then, I bought another GX800. The GX800 is definitely more fiddly and it's not really designed to be an A-camera, but it works as a complementary camera, especially Lumix. Honestly, it blows away a GF3 (which I also have); in 2023, that's a crash-cam. Also, I love the look of the GX800 (even over the newer GX880).

Thanks 🙂 

I guess I asked because there are very few people using cameras this small, and I have generally had the idea that smaller is better because it attracts less attention, but there's a point where smaller isn't better and I'm not really sure where that point is, so my thinking in this area isn't that clear.

I definitely think of the GX85 as being superior to the GF3, but that is for so many reasons that I'm really not sure of which of them matter and which are just part of the package.  I'd be stunned if anything being discussed here wouldn't blow the GF3 away in video terms, its a real weakness, which is a pity because I took the GF3 around the world back when I was taking photos and it captures stills that are about 50 levels higher than the video!

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, kye said:

I definitely think of the GX85 as being superior to the GF3, but that is for so many reasons that I'm really not sure of which of them matter and which are just part of the package.  I'd be stunned if anything being discussed here wouldn't blow the GF3 away in video terms, its a real weakness, which is a pity because I took the GF3 around the world back when I was taking photos and it captures stills that are about 50 levels higher than the video!

Make no mistake, the GX85 is superior in almost every way over the GX850, except for size and screen IMO. I shot the GX85 for almost 3 years exclusively. I often regret not having it. Also, if I had a GX85 today and I'm happy with the size and weight, there would be no real need to get a GX850.

My GF3, that almost never gets any love, is slightly broken. It has some weird issue where it has bad digital banding. Amazingly, that doesn't happen in video mode. Oddly, this camera's strap system has been adapted to Panasonic's newest cameras (G9ii, S5ii, S5iix).

[homestar_kevin]

A big difference from the rest of the crowd, but the z cam e1 is 252 grams with battery.

I've loved having the e1 in my kit. It's been brilliant for plant/crash cams and for hiding it on stage for theatrical recordings. 

[John Matthews]

9 minutes ago, homestar_kevin said:

A big difference from the rest of the crowd, but the z cam e1 is 252 grams with battery.

I've loved having the e1 in my kit. It's been brilliant for plant/crash cams and for hiding it on stage for theatrical recordings. 

That looks great! Their website actually lists it at "216.6g" including battery. Did you weigh yours? Does it have a physical shutter?

[kye]

This was tonights project.  Just for fun...  

 

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, kye said:

This was tonights project.  Just for fun...  

You live in a wonderful place. Another great example of not blowing out the highlights. It almost always looks better. ...not an easy task on the GF3.

I just realized I've been saying I have a GF3 and I don't- it's a GF5! 🤪

I have some some quirky Lomography lenses (set of 3) made for MFT- they cost me a whopping 20 euros and they're total crap, but that's not the point. They also come with some filters!

I've been sick the past few days, but you're giving me desire to get out there.

 

[homestar_kevin]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

That looks great! Their website actually lists it at "216.6g" including battery. Did you weigh yours? Does it have a physical shutter?

Ah nice, I used B&H specs as the basis for my comment, I can weigh mine when I get home, but it's super tiny and super light.

E shutter only, but pretty great video features and connects and is as controllable with a phone as a gopro is.

Definitely a better camera for video than stills, but has some fun action cam esque features.

It's a really fun camera that truly sits as a 16mp m43 camera is a gopro shell. I've really enjoyed having mine.

[PannySVHS]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I've been sick the past few days, but you're giving me desire to get out there.

That's the spirit, why I am in this forum, guys! @kye@John MatthewsWill watch the Gf3 goodness later. Thumbnail looking great already. cheers

[kye]

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

You live in a wonderful place. Another great example of not blowing out the highlights. It almost always looks better. ...not an easy task on the GF3.

Actually, because it's full-auto, I did nothing to protect the highlights - it does what it wants and that's that!

I think it exposes to protect some highlights, but I'm not entirely sure.  I didn't really look at the SOOC clips with any detail, I just edited them and applied the film treatment.

Incidentally, all that was done in Resolve with the built-in plugins - no Dehancer / FilmConvert / Filmbox etc - using the Film Damage / Film Grain OFX plugins and the Kodak 2383 LUT.  All the camera shake was in-camera (I'm so talented!) but when I tried to add some shake to the end title it had some sort of bug and I couldn't work out how to get around it, which is why they're disappointingly stable.  I should also work out how to add flicker, I don't know if there's a plugin for that or not.

As nice as the beach and sunset look, I'm really bored of filming the same locations over and over again, but the GF3 / body cap lens combo and the different style of video made it quite fun and encouraged me to add camera movement and break out of my normal style, so that was really good.  I essentially only film at home for practice so that when I go on trips I am familiar with the equipment and can shoot fast, but it's hard to maintain motivation for months or years on end between trips.  I can see myself using that setup again, I feel like the small size helps the shooting experience around people, although one person did look at the camera in the footage (in a shot I cut).  So it's not invisible.

[kye]

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I just realized I've been saying I have a GF3 and I don't- it's a GF5! 🤪

DPreview said "The GF5 is a fairly subtle refresh of the GF3" and side-by-side they're almost identical, as well as the specs, so I don't think your revelation really changes things all that much 🙂

[fuzzynormal]

On 12/19/2023 at 3:11 AM, John Matthews said:

Compared to the GM1, the GX800 feels like a toy

Pffffssst.  Just A.I. uprez the GM1 to 4K.  

Not because you should, but because it will give you an excuse to keep using the GM1.  

Man, out of all the cameras I've bought and sold over the years, why'd I let that one go?  Still have it as my avatar all these years later...

[John Matthews]

9 minutes ago, fuzzynormal said:

Pffffssst.  Just A.I. uprez the GM1 to 4K.  

Not because you should, but because it will give you an excuse to keep using the GM1.  

Man, out of all the cameras I've bought and sold over the years, why'd I let that one go?  Still have it as my avatar all these years later...

The only problem is that it takes crazy amounts of energy and time. The GM1 was great. I really liked its build quality and output. Personally, I just love the flip-up screen though. The GM1's 1080p was better than the GX850's 1080p (because of moiré); however, the it cannot compete with the GX850's native 4k, free from most faults and highly detailed.

[Emanuel]

On 12/19/2023 at 2:35 PM, kye said:

This was tonights project.  Just for fun...  

 

Left my thanks-like above but had no time yet to address a comment I think fully justifies also because he is one of the most valuable contributors in this community and I think it's worthy of it too, so here is now : )

When I've watched this project of Carl Dreyer (here's some meeting with film students to only those who understand Danish though), some former film critic and older fellow from same alma mater/filmschool, programmer from a mainstream network/state TV and responsible for a TV program dedicated to short film on-air for decades (I proudly designed) told me he didn't like it because the Danish filmmaker had repeated shots on this short film paid by the local road safety authorities where seems Dreyer simply made the apology of speed instead for many of the viewers if not all... I stayed with my doubts and still keeping that typical feeling of a masterpiece anyway ; )

Came to my mind now 'cause the use of those cycling sunset shots by @kye towards the refuge staring there in the coast before the upcoming night as epilogue. Why this is film?

You play with the one outside beyond the pictures, not only but no less, the time to come*... That's cinema!

- EAG

 

* from the material previously organised by the filmmaker there in the film, that's why kye is misleading us ; ) LOL to add some fabrication on it, art is real but also fake and true at same time, the truth of cinema : X this is film, after all ;- )

 

[Emanuel]

* misleading us with that title

[kye]

8 hours ago, Emanuel said:

Left my thanks-like above but had no time yet to address a comment I think fully justifies also because he is one of the most valuable contributors in this community and I think it's worthy of it too, so here is now : )

When I've watched this project of Carl Dreyer (here's some meeting with film students to only those who understand Danish though), some former film critic and older fellow from same alma mater/filmschool, programmer from a mainstream network/state TV and responsible for a TV program dedicated to short film on-air for decades (I proudly designed) told me he didn't like it because the Danish filmmaker had repeated shots on this short film paid by the local road safety authorities where seems Dreyer simply made the apology of speed instead for many of the viewers if not all... I stayed with my doubts and still keeping that typical feeling of a masterpiece anyway ; )

Came to my mind now 'cause the use of those cycling sunset shots by @kye towards the refuge staring there in the coast before the upcoming night as epilogue. Why this is film?

You play with the one outside beyond the pictures, not only but no less, the time to come*... That's cinema!

- EAG

 

* from the material previously organised by the filmmaker there in the film, that's why kye is misleading us ; ) LOL to add some fabrication on it, art is real but also fake and true at same time, the truth of cinema : X this is film, after all ;- )

Thanks 🙂

That's an interesting film.  The repeated shots are a bit distracting but I forgive them, those who haven't published works don't have the authority to criticise those who have, and those who have published works will likely understand that sometimes compromises must be made, and that compromises might have been more necessary in 1948 shooting a road movie on film than now!  It's much harder than people think to keep an audience engaged without dialogue.

[kye]

On 12/19/2023 at 10:07 PM, homestar_kevin said:

A big difference from the rest of the crowd, but the z cam e1 is 252 grams with battery.

I've loved having the e1 in my kit. It's been brilliant for plant/crash cams and for hiding it on stage for theatrical recordings. 

I've looked at the E1 before as well, it really is absolutely tiny - almost action camera sized!

What lenses do you use it with?  I must admin that by the time you add a lens then the size advantage is potentially diluted somewhat.

Does it have AF?  I have a vague sense that there was some 'gotcha' that steered me away from it.  The 4K really is great though.  I definitely agree with @John Matthews about the advantage of 4K on these little cameras, even if the 4K isn't that great in absolute terms the mode tends to have more bitrate and when you put it on a 1080p timeline the compression artefacts on edges etc are often smoothed over in the downsampling.

10 hours ago, fuzzynormal said:

Pffffssst.  Just A.I. uprez the GM1 to 4K.  

Not because you should, but because it will give you an excuse to keep using the GM1.  

Man, out of all the cameras I've bought and sold over the years, why'd I let that one go?  Still have it as my avatar all these years later...

I also looked at the GM1, it's also very small...   I think the tilt-screen of the GX85 won me over - my GF3 has a fixed screen and doing high and low angle shots with my GF3 was almost impossible with manual focus lenses.  I've since moved away from MF to AF lenses, but even framing is a challenge and no screen can compete with reflections of the sky if you're holding it above your head and tilting it down so you're looking at the screen at almost 90 degrees!