World's smallest DSLM that shoots 4k?

[BTM_Pix]

1 hour ago, PannySVHS said:

Is there an option for resuming or fixing focal distance as well?

It does both zoom and focus position.

[PannySVHS]

2 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

It does both zoom and focus position.

Wowsers, that´s very useful. I find the LX10 to be a little gem, due to lens, functionality and effective image quality in 4K when graded. The 2/3" 4K is no slouch. It trumps a Lumix G6 in lowlight. Like Harrsion Kraft I find it to be one of my most fun cameras and my personal camera of last year.

[ac6000cw]

13 hours ago, kye said:

To change the subject slightly (and with apologies to @John Matthews) after shooting with my GF3 and 15mm F8 pancake lens I've been thinking about tiny cameras further, and am wondering what the best option would be for the smallest and fastest 4K camera setup without a super-wide lens.

To be specific, I want it to turn it on, aim it, and hit record and be capturing 4K / 100Mbps video in the lowest possible number of seconds.  To this end, auto-everything is preferable, except auto-focus, which has to either be fixed focus or fast enough so I never have to wait for it.  Essentially, I want an action camera, but I don't want the super-wide FOV.

I've re-read the thread, and here are the options I think are on the table:

• Zcam E1 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• GX850 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• Sony RX0 (mk1 or 2)
• iPhone

Things that don't make the cut:

• Cameras that are too big: GX85, Olympus E-P7, Osmo Pocket series
• Too wide FOV: action cameras
• Modifying an action camera with third-party lens

Things I'm not sure about:

• LX10 (is the AF instant and reliable?)

Are there other options I missed?  Other thoughts?

If the LX10 is a possibility, then maybe the Sony ZV-1 (the original version)?

Lens OIS (plus EIS in 'Active' stabilization mode). Also records gyro data for stabilization in post.

4k 24/25/30p at 100Mbps, FHD at 50Mbps, no crop in 4k, Cine/S-Log/HLG picture profiles (but only 8-bit).

PDAF.

Startup time about 3 seconds, including adjusting the zoom to where it was last time.

Good on-board audio (with an included furry) plus a mic jack (which doesn't foul the screen when it's hinged out).

The manual is here - https://helpguide.sony.net/dc/1910/v1/en/index.html

Downsides that I've noticed so far:

The battery life when shooting video is poor (there's just not the space for a large battery in a body that small...but 3rd party batteries are cheap)

Anything screwed into the tripod hole blocks the battery/card door from opening.

Only one control wheel.

The Sony menus...

[MrSMW]

14 hours ago, kye said:

• Zcam E1 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• GX850 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• Sony RX0 (mk1 or 2)
• iPhone

Sony RX100V ?

I had one and it was pretty fantastic. Tiny, genuinely pocketable and my only real issue was overheating for how I used it which is for MUCH longer takes than you Kye.

Same issue with the ZV1, brilliant little thing but needed cooling…which it probably could today with the Tilta stick on jobbie.

Part of me really wants to go uber-small with my gear, but I think for my needs and taking budget (the huge losses in trading) into consideration, it’s a non-starter.

Just knocking off 1kg is a big plus for me for 2024 but that is still a body and lens combo about 5+ times heavier than any of yours 🤪

[ac6000cw]

I think limited 4k recording times on very small cameras is just one of the compromises you have to accept (battery life is another) - e.g. the GX800 is limited to 5 minutes in 4k, the LX100 and TZ100 to 15 minutes.

This is the recording time info in the manual for the ZV-1:

[John Matthews]

The original RX100 was the second camera I ever purchased as an adult. Back in the day (2012), it made decent 1080p and I loved the 28mm (equiv.) side of the lens. Fast-forward to today and it looks almost identical, but has improved so much in the video department. As a photo camera, I think it's roughly the same as the first one.

My main problem with these is the lens because you'll be limited in terms of looks. Build-wise, they feel good but when the lens is extended, it's fragile and the littlest bump is going to screw the whole thing up. Also, there's the dust issue. The other cool thing is the leaf shutter as it has a 1/2000 max sync speed- amazing. Also, the slow-motion is pretty good too.

Compared to the LX10, the Sony is clearly better, but it's Sony (if you've had Sony's before, you know what that means).

IMO, both the LX15 and RX100 beat the GX800 with the kit lens; it's only when you put other lenses on the GX800 that it begins to rise above. Personally, I'd love to have more recent options, but apparently no manufacturer is on-board.

With the release of the G100D, it's that or nothing from Panasonic. Sony hasn't updated the RX100 in a long time either. Grab what you can or be happy with a G100D (which isn't bad) or E-M10 or E-P7, or OM5, but they're all way bigger.

 

[PannySVHS]

2/3" crop/sensor estate is not too shabby at 2.8. If you watch Harisson Krafts videos you might possibly not feel so sure about the RX100 3 to V being the winner in the image quality department. @John Matthews The lens looks magical at this aperature on the LX15 throughout all focal lengths. It sports the same sensor as the RX10 1,2,3 afaik. Crop in 4K mode did not hinder me to film some of my best personal footage ever with it. The cake is in the pudding of the lens. Processing in 4K is just as good as on the GX85.

I still need to experiment with profile settings a bit more, but I would leave saturation untouched, noise reduction and sharpness all the way down though. I have started to treat it like a S16 F4 camera. I got two of them but only with one battery for around 120 Euro from a youtuber. Heck of a two camera deal. 🙂 At 200 Euro used price I would still consider it a good purchase for image tinkerers. One needs to massage the image in Davinci a bit and save some presets and secret sauce for best effect. But that´s half the fun of it.

 

 

[John Matthews]

25 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

2/3" crop/sensor estate is not too shabby at 2.8. If you watch Harisson Krafts videos you might possibly not feel so sure about the RX100 3 to V being the winner in the image quality department. @John Matthews The lens looks magical at this aperature on the LX15 throughout all focal lengths. It sports the same sensor as the RX10 1,2,3 afaik. Crop in 4K mode did not hinder me to film some of my best personal footage ever with it. The cake is in the pudding of the lens. Processing in 4K is just as good as on the GX85.

I still need to experiment with profile settings a bit more, but I would leave saturation untouched, noise reduction and sharpness all the way down though. I have started to treat it like a S16 F4 camera. I got two of them but only with one battery for around 120 Euro from a youtuber. Heck of a two camera deal. 🙂 At 200 Euro used price I would still consider it a good purchase for image tinkerers. One needs to massage the image in Davinci a bit and save some presets and secret sauce for best effect. But that´s half the fun of it.

 

 

I've seen great footage from the LX15, this included. Today, I went on a walk to get some berries and took a few shots with the GX800 and the kit lens:

 

[kye]

2 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

I've seen great footage from the LX15, this included. Today, I went on a walk to get some berries and took a few shots with the GX800 and the kit lens:

 

Great images...  High resolution but not too sharp.

Looks like you've had some rain!

[John Matthews]

1 minute ago, kye said:

Looks like you've had some rain!

Massive amounts! I've never seen so much and the ground has been saturated for weeks.

[MrSMW]

Northern France has been trash for about 2 months 😠

[John Matthews]

7 minutes ago, kye said:

High resolution but not too sharp.

It'll basically perform the same as the GX80, but without IBIS and you're forced to lock down most shots. If there's IS in the lens, it works. Rolling shutter is bad just like on the G100 in 4k. I turned down all the sharpness and NR, the other settings are specific to EOSHD Pro Color in Standard profile.

[PannySVHS]

Now I feel motivated to film a bit tomorrow. Got my LX with me on my vacation. Btw, like many 8bit video classics, the GX and LX are awesome BW cameras when filming in colour and doing the BW afterwards. The LX10 does a good job of stabilizing handheld shots to give the impression of locked shots, even just the lens stabi in 4K.

[John Matthews]

7 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Now I feel motivated to film a bit tomorrow. Got my LX with me on my vacation. Btw, like many 8bit video classics, the GX and LX are awesome BW cameras when filming in colour and doing the BW afterwards. The LX10 does a good job of stabilizing handheld shots to give the impression of locked shots, even just the lens stabi in 4K.

For photos, I prefer most landscape shots in black and white. City and people shots are mostly in color. I've also been impressed with the black and white profiles in video. I also need to shoot more video in them.

[kye]

On 12/19/2023 at 6:00 PM, ac6000cw said:

Here are a few old 2160p25 and 1080p50 SOC clips from my GX800 (which I no longer have) - https://drive.google.com/open?id=13vWtrMzGKQ5qR1l2zCr_NBVjIowFuy4V&usp=drive_fs .  All hand-held, probably using the 12-32mm or 14-42mm kit lenses, standard picture profile, shutter priority (using the 'flicker reduction' setting). The train going over the road crossing (P1000474.MP4) shows the rolling shutter nicely.

Thanks again for these!

Impressive images considering the price-bracket and form-factor.  The 4K is definitely superior and would be a great image to colour grade and perform other image manipulations on.

[kye]

On 12/27/2023 at 12:38 PM, kye said:

To change the subject slightly (and with apologies to @John Matthews) after shooting with my GF3 and 15mm F8 pancake lens I've been thinking about tiny cameras further, and am wondering what the best option would be for the smallest and fastest 4K camera setup without a super-wide lens.

To be specific, I want it to turn it on, aim it, and hit record and be capturing 4K / 100Mbps video in the lowest possible number of seconds.  To this end, auto-everything is preferable, except auto-focus, which has to either be fixed focus or fast enough so I never have to wait for it.  Essentially, I want an action camera, but I don't want the super-wide FOV.

I've re-read the thread, and here are the options I think are on the table:

• Zcam E1 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• GX850 with 15mm F8 body cap lens
• Sony RX0 (mk1 or 2)
• iPhone

Things that don't make the cut:

• Cameras that are too big: GX85, Olympus E-P7, Osmo Pocket series
• Too wide FOV: action cameras
• Modifying an action camera with third-party lens

Things I'm not sure about:

• LX10 (is the AF instant and reliable?)

Are there other options I missed?  Other thoughts?

Thanks all for your comments, I haven't posted because I've been stuck in analysis paralysis about this, due to the lack of a clear winner.

My current thoughts:

• iPhone
  I already own it, so that's a massive advantage, and it'll get upgraded "for free" over time because I'll do that anyway.  It's not small, but it's so common now that it doesn't stand out.  I'm wondering if filming vertically might attract less attention and I can just crop in, which is fine considering the vintage aesthetic I'm thinking of.
   
• GF3
  I already own it and I have this completely baffling soft spot for it.  I have so many other options but keep coming back to it, and if I got something else then why would I expect it to have an effect no other camera has had before it?
   
• Panasonic ZS20
  I just remembered I own this camera, and while it's not in the 4K club, it's still got lots of the cool features of the other fixed lens cameras mentioned (e.g. zoom resume) so it might be worth pursuing.  The OIS was crazy good from memory too.
   
• SJ4000 (modified with zoom lens)
  I already own this and while it's only got mediocre 1080p, it is radically smaller than the GF3 and quite flexible to shoot with now that it has the ~20-80mm FOV zoom lens on it.  The zoom does stick out the front and is almost as large as the camera itself, and in some ways I regret replacing the previous tiny fixed lens I had for it which was about a 50-60mm FOV equivalent.  The lens ergonomics are awful and it's as far from parfocal as you could imagine and with a tiny focus throw the MF experience on the tiny screen is something that has to be experienced to be believed.
  Maybe I should buy another one and install that previous lens?
  For those curious, there's a thread about this camera: https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topic/35801-the-d-mount-project/?do=findComment&comment=415574
   
• Sony X3000
  I already own it and its tiny, plus the 4K and DR are impressive so I could crop into it in post significantly.  It doesn't motivate me in any way though.  It's strange, but I feel zero impulse to pull it out of the drawer and pick it up.
   
• Zcam E1
  Not easily available and sounds like it might not be that great a filming experience, despite it being so small and having a comparatively good image for the size.
   
• GX850
  Great camera, but very similar to my GX85, so I don't think would bring a lot extra to the table.
   
• Fixed lens models - LX10 / ZV-1 / RX100 / etc
  Look like great options but make me question why I would spend this much on something that overlaps with my existing cameras so much and doesn't really nail the vision I had for this specific role.
   
• RX0
  Size is killer and lens / image seems almost perfect, but there are flaws and questions aplenty, the price being one of them.  

So, TLDR; I have so many options already that are sort-of suitable that none of the options hit the nail on the head enough to make me feel like buying anything.  I might have too many nearby options that perhaps no camera would be able to get me to buy something, and even if there was one, It would probably be so niche that no manufacturer would ever even think of making it.

[BTM_Pix]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I just remembered I own this camera

That could be the motto of this forum.

[kye]

1 hour ago, BTM_Pix said:

That could be the motto of this forum.

I don't know which would be worse..   remembering a camera you'd forgotten about, or not remembering!!

[BTM_Pix]

3 hours ago, kye said:

I don't know which would be worse..   remembering a camera you'd forgotten about, or not remembering!!

My bank account would vouch that my second Sigma DP3m is testament to the latter.

 

[BTM_Pix]

3 hours ago, kye said:

I don't know which would be worse..   remembering a camera you'd forgotten about, or not remembering!!

This also happened to me on here by the way.

Someone was asking about the Contax Zeiss 35-70mm f3.4 and I was lamenting the fact that I'd gone for the wrong option short zoom and should have bought that one and saying that I didn't think anyone on here had one.

.

Meanwhile over in the lens thread a good 15 months earlier, there I am posting samples from my, erm, Contax Zeiss 35-70mm f3.4. 

Its a disease.