World's smallest DSLM that shoots 4k?

[mercer]

I must admit that I have been very tempted to try out the ZV-1. I guess if you want to go real cheap, the F version is a possibility as well. I've had a couple RX10ii and I really like Sony's 1" sensor cameras.

[ac6000cw]

3 hours ago, mercer said:

I must admit that I have been very tempted to try out the ZV-1. I guess if you want to go real cheap, the F version is a possibility as well. I've had a couple RX10ii and I really like Sony's 1" sensor cameras.

Note the F and mk ii versions don't have OIS (only EIS and embedded gyro data for stabilisation in post). It was a major reason I bought the original version recently - I've got used to having good stabilisation on micro 4/3 cameras.

[PannySVHS]

Hey, Glenn, remembering your cool BW videos with your RX10. Btw, F version of the ZVhas a crop in 4K and a fixed focal length at F2. No thumb wheel would be a bit of a bummer for me.

I might get an additional grip for my LX15. Maybe a cage, also for some additional weight. 🙂 I didnt get to film anything today but I went to a wrestling match in November. It did good for what it is. This month I went again, testing out my S1H a bit. Both experiences were fun. The official streaming people filmed with Sony hybrids, either A6xxx series or the FF ones looking like the A series. I found it a bit akward to see them using hdmi sdi converters instead of using a FS700 or FS5 instead.

[kye]

I've now decided to reinstate the modified SJ4000 action camera with 20-80mm FOV zoom lens into active duty, and managed to put together a rig for it and everything.

I found an old video where I compared it to the GF3 and it seems the SJ4000 potentially has a slightly more detailed image, although I suspect that the DR is a lot less and that the colours aren't as nice.

Here's the modified rig mounted on the handlebars of my electric scooter.  It's very easy to remove them and the clamp becomes a surprisingly ergonomic handle.

12 hours ago, BTM_Pix said:

This also happened to me on here by the way.

Someone was asking about the Contax Zeiss 35-70mm f3.4 and I was lamenting the fact that I'd gone for the wrong option short zoom and should have bought that one and saying that I didn't think anyone on here had one.

.

Meanwhile over in the lens thread a good 15 months earlier, there I am posting samples from my, erm, Contax Zeiss 35-70mm f3.4. 

Its a disease.

 

I had a similar pattern of handling strange issues in Resolve.  I'd encounter some strange issue, spend an hour playing with it and reading the manual etc, then find a workable solution / workaround, then go to the forums to see if anyone else was having that problem, find the thread, and then find the post I'd made previously sharing the solution that I'd just found.

[John Matthews]

I'd just like to clarify my goal: I want the smallest, lightest kit possible to produce either a good enough 1080p (free of fatal flaws like moiré or aliasing) or 4k image. I'm looking for an equivalent of a super 35 f/2.8 image at around 28mm S35 field of view (around 42mm FF equivalent). I'd like to fit it with a variable ND and CPL filters.

[PannySVHS]

@John Matthews That would mean 20mm and F2 for M43, in S16 terms a 14mm F1.4, in 2/3" a 10mm F1.

M43 is the only one fitting the bill for your goal of a 28ish F2.8 S35 equivalent and being light and pocketable, so your GX850 with the Olympus 17mm F1.8 or Panny 20mm F1.7 pancake would be the lightest kit, with slightly larger aperature compensating for the additional 4K crop. No ibis nor ois though.

LX100 would deliver F4 equivalent and LX15 F5.6 in S35 terms.

LX100 with its slightly cropped m43 sensor (2.2 crop compared to FF) performs like this according to slashcam: 16.82mm focal length with F2.4 giving in photo mode an equivalent of 37mm full frame with  F5.28. In 4K video mode that translates into 40.36mm and F5.76 full frame equivlaent due to the additional crop, giving you 28mm with F4 equivalent in S35 terms in 4K video mode.

[kye]

Just created a new thread showing that the rec709 profiles in these cameras are more flexible in post than most people think:

Posting this here for easy reference, and because these small cameras likely only have 8-bit rec709, but I think this isn't nearly the barrier to getting good images than most people believe it is.

It's also why I shoot in auto-exposure and auto-WB..  making small changes to every shot is a very simple operation and a much better outcome than me setting this stuff manually and then forgetting to adjust it later and getting some shots horribly wrong!

For those who think that adjusting exposure and WB in post is a sign of bad film-making, every colourist I've seen allows for making small exposure and WB changes as a first step in their grade and I've heard several say that it's something they apply routinely, even on professionally shot productions.  Same as NR, which is routinely applied, completely contrary to YT wisdom which suggests that visible noise means the camera is defective.

I hope this test will encourage people to look beyond the forum/YT "wisdom" and be free to get the most from their equipment.

[John Matthews]

9 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

@John Matthews That would mean 20mm and F2 for M43, in S16 terms a 14mm F1.4, in 2/3" a 10mm F1.

M43 is the only one fitting the bill for your goal of a 28ish F2.8 S35 equivalent and being light and pocketable, so your GX850 with the Olympus 17mm F1.8 or Panny 20mm F1.7 pancake would be the lightest kit, with slightly larger aperature compensating for the additional 4K crop. No ibis nor ois though.

LX100 would deliver F4 equivalent and LX15 F5.6 in S35 terms.

LX100 with its slightly cropped m43 sensor (2.2 crop compared to FF) performs like this according to slashcam: 16.82mm focal length with F2.4 giving in photo mode an equivalent of 37mm full frame with  F5.28. In 4K video mode that translates into 40.36mm and F5.76 full frame equivlaent due to the additional crop, giving you 28mm with F4 equivalent in S35 terms in 4K video mode.

I've come to the same conclusions. IBIS and rolling shutter at the clear problems with the GX850, but any sort of tripod fixes that. I have a steadycam or kit lens for the rest, but really prefer the locked down shots right now. I've grown a little tired of the IBIS look but fully admit its practicality.

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

but really prefer the locked down shots right now. I've grown a little tired of the IBIS look but fully admit its practicality

I hear you and much prefer myself, locked down static shots...but it's not practical for me in my work so I have compromised as follows:

Ceremonies and speeches, static tripod for the full length productions, but some static IBIS stuff for 'The Film' because stuff like reactions etc, I couldn't work fast enough with even a monopod, never mind a tripod.

Candid stuff which is most of the rest actually, steady IBIS, ie, 'tripod mode'. I never pan or track follow movement patterns ie, any movement should be almost imperceptible.

Gimbal is reserved purely for walking tracking couple so a couple of 10's of seconds of footage max.

If I had to go one way of the other though, handheld or static, I'd choose static every time and I can't stand this current vogue for waving the camera around in every scene.

[kye]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I've come to the same conclusions. IBIS and rolling shutter at the clear problems with the GX850, but any sort of tripod fixes that. I have a steadycam or kit lens for the rest, but really prefer the locked down shots right now. I've grown a little tired of the IBIS look but fully admit its practicality.

I mostly prefer locked down shots too - I just get them handheld using IBIS 🙂 
With the Dual IS and a bit of stabilisation in post, you can easily get a shot where the framing is locked off.

RS impacts movement of the frame (e.g. from being handheld) but also movement in the frame (e.g. movement of vehicles, movement of objects filmed from a moving vehicle, etc).

Style is, of course, personal preference though, so however you want to tackle it is the right way 🙂 

[ac6000cw]

On 1/1/2024 at 10:37 AM, John Matthews said:

I'd just like to clarify my goal: I want the smallest, lightest kit possible to produce either a good enough 1080p (free of fatal flaws like moiré or aliasing) or 4k image. I'm looking for an equivalent of a super 35 f/2.8 image at around 28mm S35 field of view (around 42mm FF equivalent). I'd like to fit it with a variable ND and CPL filters.

I'd agree with the others that you've already found the best ILC solution.

Personally I don't expect any new very compact ILCs to appear (warmed over stuff like the G100D excepted) - I think that market segment is largely catered for now by small RX100/ZV-1 size 1" sensor compacts plus larger sensor phones. I think it's not that camera manufacturers couldn't do it, more about if there would be enough customers willing to pay a high price for something like a G9 ii sensor and processing sqeezed into a sub-GX80/GX9 size body, with the inevitable limitations on recording times and battery life.

Re. IBIS - I've now sold all my older cameras without it, because I much prefer doing most shooting handheld. I don't like an obvious 'handheld' look (overused sometimes in films and TV), so like Kye I rely on IBIS plus stabilisation in post if necessary. It's mostly why I live with video quality limitations in exchange for IBIS performance on the E-M1 iii and OM-1 (the OG G9 IBIS gets close, has worse AF and better video quality - swings and roundabouts...). The ZV-1 in 'active' SteadyShot mode (OIS + EIS) is quite decent but IMHO not up to E-M1 iii/OM-1 standard - but it is pocket sized after all...

 

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, ac6000cw said:

I'd agree with the others that you've already found the best ILC solution.

Personally I don't expect any new very compact ILCs to appear (warmed over stuff like the G100D excepted) - I think that market segment is largely catered for now by small RX100/ZV-1 size 1" sensor compacts plus larger sensor phones. I think it's not that camera manufacturers couldn't do it, more about if there would be enough customers willing to pay a high price for something like a G9 ii sensor and processing sqeezed into a sub-GX80/GX9 size body, with the inevitable limitations on recording times and battery life.

Re. IBIS - I've now sold all my older cameras without it, because I much prefer doing most shooting handheld. I don't like an obvious 'handheld' look (overused sometimes in films and TV), so like Kye I rely on IBIS plus stabilisation in post if necessary. It's mostly why I live with video quality limitations in exchange for IBIS performance on the E-M1 iii and OM-1 (the OG G9 IBIS gets close, has worse AF and better video quality - swings and roundabouts...). The ZV-1 in 'active' SteadyShot mode (OIS + EIS) is quite decent but IMHO not up to E-M1 iii/OM-1 standard - but it is pocket sized after all...

 

I know the IBIS thing. Nothing worse than super shaky footage. It goes way back to my Pentax K5 (the first large sensor with IBIS if I'm not mistaken). Almost every camera I've owned had it. Of course, you can turn it off and everything, but I like the limitation of not having it now... nothing handheld or if handheld, use the steadycam (which means I almost never use it).

[kye]

After my little deep dive into the tiniest camera I could find, it does occur to me that the cameras that killed this market segment might soon be good enough to satisfy our requirements in this space:

• Action cameras and phones have had manual controls for several product generations now, and things like the BM iPhone app has better features than many MILCs (waveforms, zebras, view LUTs, false colour, etc etc etc)
• The limitation on action cameras has always been the fixed wide lens, however with the Insta360 Ace Pro and its 8K sensor on 16mm FOV lens, it now has the resolution to do 4K at 32mm, 3K at 43mm, 2K at 64mm
• Even if you ignored the crop modes on these cameras, a 100Mbps 16mm FOV cropped in post would still be 66Mbps at 24mm FOV which is better than some of the lesser cameras in this segment, and you can reframe and stabilise in post with that approach!
• The Insta360 RS had an interchangeable lens module, so future models might have more normal lenses or even a module with interchangeable mounts
• The trend for action cameras and phones is towards larger sensors, so it's not inconceivable that we'll get an MFT action camera / smartphone down the line
• iPhone 15 had a professional codec and professional colour space, way ahead of most cameras discussed in this thread, with better low-light and DR than some too

In a sense these will be good outcomes for us, because with the death of this market segment we have been stuck with 8-bit cameras with relatively poor codecs, limited manual controls in video, and small sensors, but I think the gap is probably about to be filled.

My vision of making super-8 style vignette videos just for fun is almost possible with the latest GoPro, because I could crop in post, grading the image to be soft and having the right colour / grain / jitter / etc, and the fixed focus lens means that my in-post lens emulation has perfect-AF and is parfocal!

[John Matthews]

3 hours ago, kye said:

After my little deep dive into the tiniest camera I could find, it does occur to me that the cameras that killed this market segment might soon be good enough to satisfy our requirements in this space:

• Action cameras and phones have had manual controls for several product generations now, and things like the BM iPhone app has better features than many MILCs (waveforms, zebras, view LUTs, false colour, etc etc etc)
• The limitation on action cameras has always been the fixed wide lens, however with the Insta360 Ace Pro and its 8K sensor on 16mm FOV lens, it now has the resolution to do 4K at 32mm, 3K at 43mm, 2K at 64mm
• Even if you ignored the crop modes on these cameras, a 100Mbps 16mm FOV cropped in post would still be 66Mbps at 24mm FOV which is better than some of the lesser cameras in this segment, and you can reframe and stabilise in post with that approach!
• The Insta360 RS had an interchangeable lens module, so future models might have more normal lenses or even a module with interchangeable mounts
• The trend for action cameras and phones is towards larger sensors, so it's not inconceivable that we'll get an MFT action camera / smartphone down the line
• iPhone 15 had a professional codec and professional colour space, way ahead of most cameras discussed in this thread, with better low-light and DR than some too

In a sense these will be good outcomes for us, because with the death of this market segment we have been stuck with 8-bit cameras with relatively poor codecs, limited manual controls in video, and small sensors, but I think the gap is probably about to be filled.

My vision of making super-8 style vignette videos just for fun is almost possible with the latest GoPro, because I could crop in post, grading the image to be soft and having the right colour / grain / jitter / etc, and the fixed focus lens means that my in-post lens emulation has perfect-AF and is parfocal!

Those cameras certainly have their place, but I'm not giving up. I'm going to go to every single Lumix live stream to ask more questions about small DSLM cameras. Fortunately, I'm not the only one either. I won't let it go. All those other cameras you mention don't have proper ergonomics. That style of camera has been around forever and they still don't have nice-looking images IMO. The industry also knows this because when they often hire out someone to make promotional videos that look like their shot on a phone, the final video is shot on a GH6 or something. The only reason for me to use one is to hide the fact I'm shooting video.

I realize they're making some progress on the computational side of video, but there must be a market. Look at all the X100V's that have been sold. It would seem most of the manufacturers are spooked by the market. Did they lose massive money on the GX, GM and LX series? There must be a middle ground between releasing a GM5, LX10, LX100, GX850, GX85 and all the ZS/TZ series of cameras and releasing ONLY a G100 at 355g in the past few years? I only ask for ONE decently-sized and modern DSLM. Is that too much to ask? Everyone that wants to go to a phone has done it already- there's a market for the ones that are left. Something's up.

[mercer]

To be fair, it seems like you specifically want Panasonic to continue making these cameras? Sony has the RX0 and ZV line that are pretty impressive. Although, recently discontinued, the Canon M200 is as tiny of an ILC that you can get. Then you have the Osmo Pocket, Insta360, GoPro, etc... there are tons of options.

For some reason, every other company, except for Panasonic and BM, get a ton of crap on this forum with comments like Cripple Hammer, or whatever, but Panasonic gets a pass because they offer waveforms or something... but I feel like Panasonic is the worst of them all. In the past 3 years Canon has been the biggest innovator and are still making small DSLM cameras... look at the R50 or R100... they're pretty small. An R8 full frame camera with 10bit and cLog3 costs $1299. You can get a Sigma FP for $1000 used and not much more new...

There are options... just not from Panasonic because they only care about full frame now, or they think any worthwhile m4/3 camera should be priced at $2000.

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

To be fair, it seems like you specifically want Panasonic to continue making these cameras? Sony has the RX0 and ZV line that are pretty impressive. Although, recently discontinued, the Canon M200 is as tiny of an ILC that you can get. Then you have the Osmo Pocket, Insta360, GoPro, etc... there are tons of options.

The reason I'm talking about Panasonic is simply because they're the only ones with livestreams as far as I know. Also, they listen (or maybe look). The cameras you mention have fixed lenses and/or no lens options to get under 350g or even 500g.

1 hour ago, mercer said:

For some reason, every other company, except for Panasonic and BM, get a ton of crap on this forum with comments like Cripple Hammer, or whatever, but Panasonic gets a pass because they offer waveforms or something... but I feel like Panasonic is the worst of them all. In the past 3 years Canon has been the biggest innovator and are still making small DSLM cameras... look at the R50 or R100... they're pretty small. An R8 full frame camera with 10bit and cLog3 costs $1299. You can get a Sigma FP for $1000 used and not much more new...

Few of the Panasonic cameras that I've had actually have waveforms... just histogram and zebras (I prefer the Olympus histogram by far as it shows where the focus point falls in the histogram). The R50 and R100 look cool, but they're still bigger than the G100 without the lens options. Also, I refuse to reward Canon for 2 reasons: 1) the R5 overheating silliness; 2) it's a VERY closed mount. The sigma is super-cool, but still big and no small lens options (again). The same could be said about the Nikon Z30. I talk about Panasonic because they seem to be the only ones who could make a DSLR small enough with modern features and still have lenses that would work- no one else does!

1 hour ago, mercer said:

There are options... just not from Panasonic because they only care about full frame now, or they think any worthwhile m4/3 camera should be priced at $2000.

I disagree. I think they got spooked by smart phones.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

veryone that wants to go to a phone has done it already- there's a market for the ones that are left.

The question is, what is the size of that market?

To play devils advocate, let's say it's 10,000 units per annum but based on their research, they would need to sell 100k units PA to make it worthwhile, they are not going to do it are they.

There's lot's of stuff I'd like to see in the marketplace, but if it's too niche, I can understand why it does not exist, even if I do not like it!

I think phones have simply killed the market. Not completely as in of course folks exist who wish to be served by it, but in such small numbers, it's not viable. Or the projections aren't. Or 'stuff' just doesn't fit their brand/profile anymore.

There seemed to be a time when stuff was getting smaller, but I think that time is mostly over. Mostly. Other stuff is filling certain niches such as phones and action cam type stuff.

Personally, I'd like to see big (FF and MF) sensors in tiny bodies with lenses to match, but either the physics of it does not (yet) exist, or the cost to design and build is too high.

I had high hopes for instance for the Sigma FP, but it has not hit the mark for my needs.

Something like the L model with the optional grip and the Sigma 28-70mm f2.8 with decent cropping ability due to being 61mp, makes for an extremely compelling unit to me. On paper. And it falls down at that point due to banding issues, no IBIS and no 4K 50/60p and no tilt screen.

The latter can actually be fixed with an aftermarket solution, but the rest still kills it for me. Maybe the digital stabilisation might just be enough, I don't know, but it still falls short in 2 other key areas for my needs so a sad "no".

OK, it's not super super tiny, but had it ticked more or all of the boxes, what a stunningly capable, sub 1kg unit that would have been...

 

[John Matthews]

1 minute ago, MrSMW said:

To play devils advocate, let's say it's 10,000 units per annum but based on their research, they would need to sell 100k units PA to make it worthwhile, they are not going to do it are they.

I'm not a business person, but something tells me there's more potential than 10,000 units per year with a population of 7.5b on the planet and 1% able to afford the device and .01% who want one and 1% of those who will. That's bigger than your number (7.5M).

[John Matthews]

Just put a 20MP sensor in the GX850, give it slightly better thermals (15 minute 4k record time), PDAF, decent microphones or mic jack, electronic stabalization, and I'll buy it. I won't be the only one buying that camera for $900-$1000.

[mercer]

Without looking at the actual specs, but having owned both cameras, I am pretty sure the FP is around the same size or smaller than the GX85. With lens options, you may have a point although the Sigma primes are fairly small.

To be honest, this move to mirrorless seems kinda pointless... you're trading body size for lens size. It's kinda mind boggling really.

I guess I've been out of the loop... I know the R5 had overheating issues... but it was my understanding they fixed it? Did I miss something?

I'm also pretty sure that the RF mount has plenty of smaller primes. With that said, I understand you're already invested in m4/3 but it may be time to start thinking about a different company because Panasonic isn't going back to smaller cameras unless you want a G100. Which I may be in the minority but I actually think it looks like a cool camera.