John Matthews Posted January 4 Author Share Posted January 4 3 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: I've quoted this before during the G9ii saga but, yes, its right there on the front page of the Micro Four Thirds association official website. At some point M43 was about small bodies and small lenses. Now, it's about is about bodies with more features due to the smaller sensor and "smaller than FF" lenses. This must change because FF sensor will inevitably catch up to the features and cost less than the M43 sensor. The M43 lenses will probably be smaller, but it won't take other manufacturers long to make smallish, f8 versions that compete with the M43 lenses. PannySVHS 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 16 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: This is the sort of thinking that logically should end up in the "fuck it I'll get a Z8" category. I'm with you on transcoding but indeed increasingly the faff of any kind of NLE. I'm quite interested in whether people felt they were more productive when they had hardware devices, as in camcorders and tape decks. The immediacy of coming home, getting the tape out of the camera and then putting it in your playback deck and assembling it onto the recording deck had a lot going for it in terms of productivity. Maybe if we had equivalent hardware devices now instead of everything going into the multi purpose computer it might be more enjoyable to actually edit things. And would stop the fall down the rabbit hole of tweaking the bollocks off every single shot. I'd absolutely love a Z8 or a Komodo or even an XH2(s) to some extent but again, they're just too much out of my price range. As far as the fucking around with every shot... YES!!! One of the reasons I want to "shoot" in B&W! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 4 Super Members Share Posted January 4 10 minutes ago, John Matthews said: At some point M43 was about small bodies and small lenses. Now, it's about is about bodies with more features due to the smaller sensor and "smaller than FF" lenses. This must change because FF sensor will inevitably catch up to the features and cost less than the M43 sensor. The M43 lenses will probably be smaller, but it won't take other manufacturers long to make smallish, f8 versions that compete with the M43 lenses. What intrigues me is that the Z mount does offer the possibility to hoover up all of the customers who are disenfranchised with MFT but have a large lens collection that they want to keep using. Which I suspect even from gauging comments on here is a fair number of people. JVC with the LS300 showed that you can have an APS-C sensor sat behind a fully electronic MFT mount and the flange distance difference is there to enable an adapter to Z mount. The Z30 is not too far out of GX80 territory size wise and is actually smaller than something like a G7 so it would be nice little platform as a transitionary camera from MFT should such an adapter appear as people would have the option of dipping their toe in the Z lenses if they felt like it or just keeping going with their MFT ones. Well, maybe not this version of the Z30 as it is only 8 bit internal. John Matthews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 4 Super Members Share Posted January 4 34 minutes ago, mercer said: As far as the fucking around with every shot... YES!!! One of the reasons I want to "shoot" in B&W! I've been doing a fair amount of editing on LumaFusion again recently since I got a new(er) iPad Pro. I've been using it with the interface that I created (but never released) to enable it to be controlled wirelessly by a Contour Jog/Shuttle controller. It turns the whole thing into more of a dedicated device and is far, far quicker to knock something together with, particularly as the new iPad blasts through content. LumaFusion does have the depth to it now it do everything including correction, multi cam etc etc but its not sat there in your face going "tweak me, tweak me!". It has the FCPX exporter plugin now if you want to send the whole thing to a FCPX for navel gazing/finishing but I haven't bought it as I haven't felt the need. The issue I have with the MacBook for editing is the same one that I have with it for doing music. It can do anything but I prefer the tactile immediacy of dedicated devices. mercer and PannySVHS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Goes off to check out Nikon Z30… mercer and PannySVHS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mercer Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 9 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: I've been doing a fair amount of editing on LumaFusion again recently since I got a new(er) iPad Pro. I've been using it with the interface that I created (but never released) to enable it to be controlled wirelessly by a Contour Jog/Shuttle controller. It turns the whole thing into more of a dedicated device and is far, far quicker to knock something together with, particularly as the new iPad blasts through content. LumaFusion does have the depth to it now it do everything including correction, multi cam etc etc but its not sat there in your face going "tweak me, tweak me!". It has the FCPX exporter plugin now if you want to send the whole thing to a FCPX for navel gazing/finishing but I haven't bought it as I haven't felt the need. The issue I have with the MacBook for editing is the same one that I have with it for doing music. It can do anything but I prefer the tactile immediacy of dedicated devices. I desperately need a new computer... my 10 year old MB Air wasn't really good enough back then, let alone now. It still cuts through 1080p ProRes 4444 like butter, though. I heard there's an FCPX app for iPhone/iPad now, I'm curious about. That controller is slick! You have all the gadgets. There doesn't seems to be any latency issues either. What program do you use for music? With the audio dramas I work on, I've been using Reaper. It would probably make more sense for me to use Logic, but Reaper is priced right and is pretty simple to use. Of course, my goal for my next piece is to create it entirely in GarageBand. My friend who died of Covid, wanted to make a feature film entirely on his phone... from the script, to the preproduction, to the shoot, edit, ADR, the music and all the way to the final render. It was kind of a gimmick, but to him it was more of a challenge or a puzzle for him to figure out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 4 Super Members Share Posted January 4 52 minutes ago, mercer said: I heard there's an FCPX app for iPhone/iPad now, I'm curious about. Subscription based versus €30 one off for LumaFusion seals it for me ! The mobile version of Resolve is worth a look and can also work with their SpeedEditor unit to get the same deal going that I've got with LumaFusion. 53 minutes ago, mercer said: That controller is slick! You have all the gadgets. To be fair, I had to invent that one myself ! 54 minutes ago, mercer said: There doesn't seems to be any latency issues either. No, its lag free. 55 minutes ago, mercer said: What program do you use for music? I've got Logic but being a gentleman of a certain age I prefer Cubase so I don't really use it. However, being a gentleman of a very certain age, I've recently re-bought a totally hardware solution in the form of the Roland VS-1880. I just much prefer the tactile hands on approach and for £100 its a lot cheaper than when I originally owned one 20 odd years ago ! 1 hour ago, mercer said: My friend who died of Covid, wanted to make a feature film entirely on his phone... from the script, to the preproduction, to the shoot, edit, ADR, the music and all the way to the final render. It was kind of a gimmick, but to him it was more of a challenge or a puzzle for him to figure out. I think its eminently feasible now. The new iPhone seems capable enough, LumaFusion runs on the iPhone too (and you can cheat with an HDMI out for a big monitor) and all the audio and music apps are up to it. Be a fitting tribute if you could find a way to do it on his behalf. John Matthews and PannySVHS 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 4 Super Members Share Posted January 4 FYI for anyone who is looking to go Z mount and has manual MFT lenses then there are a bunch of different dumb MFT>Z adapters for around £30-50 such as this one. PannySVHS and John Matthews 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PannySVHS Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 If they come out with a smart adapter, that would make the Z9 the biggest Mft dslm camera ever to throne above all of them.😂 @BTM_Pix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 4 Super Members Share Posted January 4 41 minutes ago, PannySVHS said: If they come out with a smart adapter, that would make the Z9 the biggest Mft dslm camera ever to throne above all of them.😂 @BTM_Pix Only narrowly beating the G9ii ! As companies can fit the electronics into the space of an E to Z adapter then they should be able to do the same in the slightly larger space of an MFT to Z adapter. Might not be the will there as it doesn’t seem the most obvious upgrade path for MFT owners but if Panasonic persist with £2K huge bodied MFT cameras then the demand might appear. Even the dumb adapter offers some interesting possibilities when using an EF>MFT speed booster to get FF FOV on Z mount APS-C cameras. I did this with FF Canon and Nikon lenses on MFT speed boosters on the LS300 and it worked a treat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PannySVHS Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 I like the G9ii. I find it perfect for pro video. I also posted dozen of times i would like a 10bit GX camera. Both concepts and philosophies i like. Hopefully Panny shares that pov. But like you and our forum friends I doubt it. Z9 being the biggest Mft cameta with a smart adapter would be a nice nod to the kind of oddball world of hybrid cameras. And a great 3 in one mount queen of hybrids. Main message for the format would be as you've been suggesting and John and others as well, mft needs nice small 10 bit follow ups to the GX line. GH5II in a GX body, i would be the first one to buy one. Not in 2024 of course.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 11 hours ago, BTM_Pix said: This is the sort of thinking that logically should end up in the "fuck it I'll get a Z8" category. I'm with you on transcoding but indeed increasingly the faff of any kind of NLE. I'm quite interested in whether people felt they were more productive when they had hardware devices, as in camcorders and tape decks. The immediacy of coming home, getting the tape out of the camera and then putting it in your playback deck and assembling it onto the recording deck had a lot going for it in terms of productivity. Maybe if we had equivalent hardware devices now instead of everything going into the multi purpose computer it might be more enjoyable to actually edit things. And would stop the fall down the rabbit hole of tweaking the bollocks off every single shot. Obviously this depends on your individual preferences, but after much playing around with controllers and setups, I found the following as a pretty good workflow: In Resolve, use the Source Tape mode in the Cut page to queue up all clips in the order shot Using the J-K-L keys you can play backwards, stop, or forwards (and holding K and pressing J or L moves one frame) Hit I to create an In Point, Hit O to create an Out Point, and I mapped P to be Insert This is literally the same process as a tape machine, just without the jog wheel. If you want the Jog Wheel then the Speed Editor wheel feels top-notch to me - weighty and smooth. More recently I found an approach that uses the "gaming" keys, and this involves putting all the clips onto a timeline, then use JKL in combination with Q as Start To Playhead, W as Split Clip, and E as End To Playhead. This is similar to setting In and Out points, but cutting away the unwanted tails on the clips. I combined that with A and S which Swap Clips left and right, to quickly move clips around, and D for deleting a clip. This setup doesn't use a jog wheel but is fast and intuitive. One thing I learned in all my editing and colour grading workflows and controllers and customisations was that I could get by just fine with just a keyboard and mouse, and that Resolve is actually setup pretty well for that. YMMV of course, but if you're able to use Resolve and not be tempted to hit all the buttons, having a workflow that only has the buttons you need can work pretty well. 11 hours ago, John Matthews said: At some point M43 was about small bodies and small lenses. Now, it's about is about bodies with more features due to the smaller sensor and "smaller than FF" lenses. This must change because FF sensor will inevitably catch up to the features and cost less than the M43 sensor. The M43 lenses will probably be smaller, but it won't take other manufacturers long to make smallish, f8 versions that compete with the M43 lenses. One thing I realised from the Olympus 15mm F8 body cap lens is that if you make a lens slower you can make it drastically smaller, but unfortunately it looks like FF lens manufacturers just don't do it for some reason. For example, the 14mm F2.5 is equivalent to a 28mm F5 lens, both in terms of DoF and light gathering (taking into account the fact that a FF sensor is 4x the size) but where are the F5.6 prime lenses for FF? Are there any at all? What about F4 primes? Any of those? We know that MFT with fast lenses becomes large very quickly, but it seems to me that FF could make very small lenses but the PR department from the Cult of Ultra-Fast Lenses seems to have prevented anyone from actually making one. John Matthews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Matthews Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 2 hours ago, kye said: One thing I realised from the Olympus 15mm F8 body cap lens is that if you make a lens slower you can make it drastically smaller, but unfortunately it looks like FF lens manufacturers just don't do it for some reason. For example, the 14mm F2.5 is equivalent to a 28mm F5 lens, both in terms of DoF and light gathering (taking into account the fact that a FF sensor is 4x the size) but where are the F5.6 prime lenses for FF? Are there any at all? What about F4 primes? Any of those? We know that MFT with fast lenses becomes large very quickly, but it seems to me that FF could make very small lenses but the PR department from the Cult of Ultra-Fast Lenses seems to have prevented anyone from actually making one. In recent years, there have been a few, but mainly at the long end where size REALLY matters. I think Canon made a 600mm F/11 (fixed aperture). IMO, in terms of size, it still doesn't compete well with the Panasonic 100-300mm. Fast and wide lenses on FF will probably be impossible to beat for M43. Even a 24mm f/1.8 on FF won't be beaten by a auto-focus version of the equivalent on M43. However, there are other lenses in the middle that make more sense. A very small and light-weight FF body with a tiny F/4 lens could kill M43 unless more effort is made to make a smaller M43 body. There is still a market for M43. I've seen prices on the used market go up and up. It's not as if people are really dumping M43 without more new shooters buying in. There is still demand and its high. If Panasonic developed a GM1-sized camera more pancake updates, wouldn't people buy it? Or, would people say "my FF camera is small enough; I'll just use a phone on the go". kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 13 hours ago, MrSMW said: Goes off to check out Nikon Z30… I quite like it and would pair it with an adapted Sigma 18-50mm f2.8 for a compact, sub 700g, 27-75mm FF equivalent EDC/travel set up. John Matthews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Matthews Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 The Minolta TC-1, 200g (with battery), f3.5, FF, 28mm lens (5 glass elements in 5 groups). This camera, made in 1996, is the target for small, compact digital point and shoot. kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 5 Super Members Share Posted January 5 18 minutes ago, John Matthews said: The Minolta TC-1, 200g (with battery), f3.5, FF, 28mm lens (5 glass elements in 5 groups). This camera, made in 1996, is the target for small, compact digital point and shoot. After taking over Minolta, Sony took over the AF, mount and IBIS technology but did kind of almost nearly make a spiritual successor to the TC-1 with the Full Frame RX1 series with its Zeiss 35mm F2 lens that is very comparable to a GX80/85 form factor. Ignore the 64% thicker figure because they obviously measure the RX1R with the fixed lens and the GX80/85 as body only. It doesn't quite get the target weight of 200g but its still not a heavyweight (again weight is measured without lens on the GX80/85). Video is only 1080p and Sony don't appear to be interested in following it up with a new model despite the fact that the camera they were going after (the Leica Q) has had two more additional iterations in the meantime. So I doubt we'll see a new one with uprated video specs, which is a pity as despite its price it was a very nice camera but I'm guessing they can get more mileage out of people buying the A7CR and developing a lens addiction. John Matthews and kye 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Matthews Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 21 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: So I doubt we'll see a new one with uprated video specs, which is a pity as despite its price it was a very nice camera but I'm guessing they can get more mileage out of people buying the A7CR and developing a lens addiction. So many people loved the RX1 series of cameras. Leica is Leica with the price. Granted, the Minolta TC-1 was made of rather exotic materials to get to that weight. Heck, I'd be happy with a hard plastic version with "only" APS-C sensor and f/2.8 lens. Really, the Rocoh GR (a rather popular camera) would be perfect if it had some reasonable video features. My point is here we are, 28 years after the TC-1, and we cannot do better with a digital point and shoot. I'm hoping for OMDS to make something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Sewell Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 44 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said: After taking over Minolta, Sony took over the AF, mount and IBIS technology but did kind of almost nearly make a spiritual successor to the TC-1 with the Full Frame RX1 series with its Zeiss 35mm F2 lens that is very comparable to a GX80/85 form factor. Ignore the 64% thicker figure because they obviously measure the RX1R with the fixed lens and the GX80/85 as body only. It doesn't quite get the target weight of 200g but its still not a heavyweight (again weight is measured without lens on the GX80/85). Video is only 1080p and Sony don't appear to be interested in following it up with a new model despite the fact that the camera they were going after (the Leica Q) has had two more additional iterations in the meantime. So I doubt we'll see a new one with uprated video specs, which is a pity as despite its price it was a very nice camera but I'm guessing they can get more mileage out of people buying the A7CR and developing a lens addiction. My mate had one of these when they first came out and, although it was pretty useless for video, the stills it produced were lovely (and way ahead of their time). Extreme jealousy ensued as the price tag (even now, s/h) was eye-watering. John Matthews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 5 Super Members Share Posted January 5 14 minutes ago, John Matthews said: My point is here we are, 28 years after the TC-1, and we cannot do better with a digital point and shoot. I'm hoping for OMDS to make something. Yes that would be a good niche for them. I had high hopes for them to be coming up with innovative stuff but from what they've offered so far it feels more like a management buyout/sweat the brand name affair. I think the latter was kind of expected so its a great pity really that it currently looks like that is the reality. Sigma have the background in making fixed lens APS-C compacts with f2.8 lenses in the original DP series (before they went weird with the design of the latter ones!) so even not withstanding them using Merrill they could make a very nice CMOS based fixed lens APS-C camera with good video facilities in it and an even faster lens now. They've been very quiet for a while so you never know. John Matthews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members BTM_Pix Posted January 5 Super Members Share Posted January 5 14 minutes ago, Tim Sewell said: Extreme jealousy ensued as the price tag (even now, s/h) was eye-watering. I had the chance to get one about four or five years ago for a reasonable price but went the poor man's route with a 2nd hand A7Rii and Samyang 35mm f2.8 thinking I was being smart because, hey, video and interchangeable lenses and its cheaper. Yeah, that was a bad call really as particularly now I'd have welcomed the simplicity of the RX1rII for everyday use. And as you say its held its value ! John Matthews 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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