World's smallest DSLM that shoots 4k?

[zlfan]

19 hours ago, Tim Sewell said:

I've been following this thread and now have a related quandary myself.

This summer I'm taking my 15yr old son to the Cambridge Folk Festival - an event I used to attend yearly 'back in the day', but now only manage to visit to coincide with my decade birthdays.

Anyway. Naturally my thoughts have wandered into possibly making some kind of film - it would seem a waste to go somewhere where there'll be loads of colourful, noisy and interesting stuff going on and not, TBH.

Obviously I don't want to take my FS7. Even stripped down (the camera, not me) I wouldn't want to be carrying it around with me the whole time and I'll be camping, so there'll be nowhere secure for it either. Also there's a distinct possibility that the odd tipple might come my way!

The obvious answer would be my GX80, but the sound - as we all know - is abysmal and there's no mic input either, so I'd have to record externally. Will I remember to start recording? Did I mention the tipple situation?

I've had a play about with my EOS m and the newish crop_mood Magic Lantern build. It's an excellent build, but I'm still getting the odd bug-out and since my idea for a film includes vox pops, I just don't feel it's reliable enough.

So option one is GX80 and I'll spend GBP170 on a Zoom F2 for the sound, or I trade in the GX80 for around GBP200, then spend <GBP400 on a different small, interchangeable lens camera that will give me a nice image and an audio input. Question is - what?

All suggestions gratefully received.

i use 100d crop mood, very small size if using a pancake lens. the key for reliable recording is to have a sandisk extreme pro sd card. overclock to 240 mhz, small hacks all on, global draw off when recording, 10 bit 5.2k 1x3 ar 2.4 is continuous. very robust. you can do uhd 1x3 12 bit ar 16-9, even more robust. if you don't mind a little bit larger size, 650d/700d are even more robust than 100d and m. bilal started his crop mood from his 700d.  you get an articulate screen, and optional battery grip. only activate necessary modules, if activate all modules, the camera will crash easily. 

[MacMurphy]

Fujifilm X-E4 (I don't like the EVF and lack of grip, but it does higher bitrate and stuff than Sony A6xxx cameras and most Panasonics)

Movie size: V 16:9, d 17:9, W 16:9, W 17:9

Frame rate: 59.94P, 50P, 29.97P, 25P, 24P, 23.98P

Bit rate: 200Mbps, 100Mbps, 50Mbps

Recording/output format: SD card, 4:2:0, 8-bit/HDMI output, 4:2:2, 10-bit

 

[MacMurphy]

Ray-Ban Smart Meta glasses (the wife just got a pair of these and they are great considering the camera size, good quality mic, nice speaker too for listening to music)

1376 x 1824 video resolution 

4GB storage

Not sure about bitrate and what not but they are weightless if you need glasses or sunglasses, or 49g if you wear just for the camera. 

 

 

[John Matthews]

5 minutes ago, MacMurphy said:

Fujifilm X-E4 (I don't like the EVF and lack of grip, but it does higher bitrate and stuff than Sony A6xxx cameras and most Panasonics)

Movie size: V 16:9, d 17:9, W 16:9, W 17:9

Frame rate: 59.94P, 50P, 29.97P, 25P, 24P, 23.98P

Bit rate: 200Mbps, 100Mbps, 50Mbps

Recording/output format: SD card, 4:2:0, 8-bit/HDMI output, 4:2:2, 10-bit

 

It's close with that 27mm lens, but still bigger and priced outrageously, even used. Quality is probably in a different league to the GX850 though.

[Tim Sewell]

1 hour ago, zlfan said:

650d/700d are even more robust than 100d and m. bilal started his crop mood from his 700d.

Yes I did look at them. Either would be a very affordable option and would get over the M's relative unusability (non-articulating screen, first and foremost) for my use case in this instance. However the other downvote for a ML based solution is storage. I'll be without the ability to offload cards over a 4-5 day period, which would put something of a strain on my resources!

Taking people's very helpful solutions in turn:

Olympus mirrorless - possible, but a bit too 'pro' looking for the stealth required.

C100 - have owned both M1 and M2 in the past. Great cams but wayyy too big, even stripped down.

XC10 - have also owned in the past and liked - could be a possibility if I could find an ultra-cheap one but in the main over-budget (also to get the best 4K I'd have to buy a bunch of somewhat expensive cards).

RX10 - anything newer than M2 would be outside budget - but M2 doesn't have SLog3. If I'm going to go Sony, I'd like it to be able to double up as a B cam for my FS7.

G1X Mii - it's a contender, but only HD.

Pana G80 - also a contender, but I think I need good AF for this project so I can concentrate on the people-centric aspects without worrying if I'm in focus.

And that leaves the ZV-1. Great AF, mic input (but no headphones), great IBIS, SLog3 (with usual 8 bit caveats), Hypergammas too, so a good B-cam candidate. Super-stealthy.

So my current thought is to grab one from MPB and try it out, trading in my GX80 and my 3 remaining M4/3 lenses.

Unlessssss.... has anyone had their hands on the ZV-E10?
 

[ac6000cw]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I'm not familiar with the Olympus lineup at all really, but that E-M5iii seems quite interesting actually.

What are the relative advantages & disadvantages compared to the GX85?  I can see it's more expensive, has a slightly smaller screen, and of course it has PDAF.  If I was to upgrade from the GX85 to it what would I gain and lose?

I've not owned/used an E-M5 iii (played with one a few times), but I have owned the very close relative E-M1 ii, so this is based on using that camera and what I know about the E-M5 iii.

Gains:

MIc input (and better sound from the on-board mics). Better IBIS. No-crop 4k at 25 & 30p plus (excellent) C4K at 24fps (only). Good (IPX1 rated) weather-sealing. OLED viewfinder. All-I 200 Mbps compression option for FHD, otherwise it's max 50 Mbps IPB for FHD, 100 Mbps for 4k and 237 Mbps for C4K (all VBR). Simple/quick switching between stills and movie mode via the 'function lever' on the back. More physical buttons and dials, including a front function button. Lots of control programmability. The 'Super Control Panel' (Oly's equivalent of the Quick Menu) is nice/very useful.

Losses:

It's basically a plastic body (to keep the weight down - it's slightly lighter than the GX85), so maybe doesn't have the more premium feel of the GX85. The FHD video is soft. The video compression isn't as good as Panasonic at similar bitrates. Weak tripod mount. Restricted choice of focus areas in video (compared to stills). The Olympus menu system...(but you get used to it eventually). You can't save several custom video setups (only custom stills setups). If you press the video record button in a 'stills' mode it always uses P mode (irrespective of the current stills settings).

Flip-out screen on E-M5 iii versus tilt on GX85 - a personal preference thing.

[ac6000cw]

(duplicate post)

[zlfan]

57 minutes ago, Tim Sewell said:

Yes I did look at them. Either would be a very affordable option and would get over the M's relative unusability (non-articulating screen, first and foremost) for my use case in this instance. However the other downvote for a ML based solution is storage. I'll be without the ability to offload cards over a 4-5 day period, which would put something of a strain on my resources!

Taking people's very helpful solutions in turn:

Olympus mirrorless - possible, but a bit too 'pro' looking for the stealth required.

C100 - have owned both M1 and M2 in the past. Great cams but wayyy too big, even stripped down.

XC10 - have also owned in the past and liked - could be a possibility if I could find an ultra-cheap one but in the main over-budget (also to get the best 4K I'd have to buy a bunch of somewhat expensive cards).

RX10 - anything newer than M2 would be outside budget - but M2 doesn't have SLog3. If I'm going to go Sony, I'd like it to be able to double up as a B cam for my FS7.

G1X Mii - it's a contender, but only HD.

Pana G80 - also a contender, but I think I need good AF for this project so I can concentrate on the people-centric aspects without worrying if I'm in focus.

And that leaves the ZV-1. Great AF, mic input (but no headphones), great IBIS, SLog3 (with usual 8 bit caveats), Hypergammas too, so a good B-cam candidate. Super-stealthy.

So my current thought is to grab one from MPB and try it out, trading in my GX80 and my 3 remaining M4/3 lenses.

Unlessssss.... has anyone had their hands on the ZV-E10?
 

yes, data storage is a real concern when shoot ml raw. about 300 gb per hour footage for crop mood. for 5d3, about 500 gb per hour. some people transcode to lower format like prores444, and delete the original raw files. but transcoding takes time. the most possible approach is to have several 20tb external drives.   

[John Matthews]

6 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

I've not owned/used an E-M5 iii (played with one a few times), but I have owned the very close relative E-M1 ii, so this is based on using that camera and what I know about the E-M5 iii.

Gains:

MIc input (and better sound from the on-board mics). Better IBIS. No-crop 4k at 25 & 30p plus (excellent) C4K at 24fps (only). Good (IPX1 rated) weather-sealing. OLED viewfinder. All-I 200 Mbps compression option for FHD, otherwise it's max 50 Mbps IPB for FHD, 100 Mbps for 4k and 237 Mbps for C4K (all VBR). Simple/quick switching between stills and movie mode via the 'function lever' on the back. More physical buttons and dials, including a front function button. Lots of control programmability. The 'Super Control Panel' (Oly's equivalent of the Quick Menu) is nice/very useful.

Losses:

It's basically a plastic body (to keep the weight down - it's slightly lighter than the GX85), so maybe doesn't have the more premium feel of the GX85. The FHD video is soft. The video compression isn't as good as Panasonic at similar bitrates. Weak tripod mount. Restricted choice of focus areas in video (compared to stills). The Olympus menu system...(but you get used to it eventually). You can't save several custom video setups (only custom stills setups). If you press the video record button in a 'stills' mode it always uses P mode (irrespective of the current stills settings).

Flip-out screen on E-M5 iii versus tilt on GX85 - a personal preference thing.

I've owned both cameras (GX80 and E-M5 iii) for 2 years each. If you compare the image and audio only, I feel the GX80 has a slightly better image more often than the E-M5iii, but the audio is no comparison. The GX80 has usable audio until you film the same thing with the E-M5iii as you cannot hear the ibis working in it. On the GX80, you hear the ibis and focus motors if you have them going. Still, both have better audio than the GX850. Also, the continuous AF performance is night and day with the GX80 with the E-M5iii outperforming it in every aspect. The EVFs are also light years apart- way better on the E-M5iii. The GX80 does feel chunkier though, but no weather sealing.

[ac6000cw]

1 hour ago, Tim Sewell said:

And that leaves the ZV-1. Great AF, mic input (but no headphones), great IBIS, SLog3 (with usual 8 bit caveats), Hypergammas too, so a good B-cam candidate. Super-stealthy.

It's not IBIS - it has OIS in the lens (standard SteadyShot) plus optional electronic stabilization (active SteadyShot, with a crop). It's very good in 'active' mode, but it's not up with the best stabilization from Oly/OMDS/Panasonic.

[Tim Sewell]

I love Panasonic cameras, but I have a cold shard of hatred in my heart for whoever thought up the idea of releasing a camera as capable as the GX80 with terrible internal audio and no mic input.

[MacMurphy]

2 hours ago, John Matthews said:

It's close with that 27mm lens, but still bigger and priced outrageously, even used. Quality is probably in a different league to the GX850 though.

The 27mm is good but has an external focusing motor like the Panasonic 20mm, which might be an issue for some doing video. Same with the Fuji 18mm f2 pancake and their most cinematic lens, the 35mm f1.4. No pancake zoom either. Maybe the recent TTartisans 27mm f2.8 pancake has normal focusing. Fuji do have nice film simulations and a cheaper alternative is the XE3, which does bog standard 4K, limited to 10 or 15 minutes. I tried the X100V, which has a tiny lens, but it overheated way too fast doing 4K.

I used to have the aforementioned GM5, which was delightfully small with the 14mm f2.5 pancake. The EVF worked fine for me too. But I wouldn't use it for video as I hate Panasonic colors pre-G7. I am sure the newer G80 and G90 will be excellent with stabilization added. Very comfortable bodies.

The GX85 EVF didn't work with my eyes so I let it collect dust while I carried on with the very lightweight, but too big for this thread, G7. The sharpness boost was noticeable.

Maybe the GX9 would be a good compromise with the 12-32mm kit lens, possibly with the 14mm f2.5 too.

Or if you can go a bit thicker the Sony A6xxx series are smaller than the GX85 and Fuji XE4, but thicker with the very nice grip. They have the 20mm f2.8 pancake which is probably as small as the 14mm Panny pancake. Their kit lens is also a pancake when closed.

[MacMurphy]

Images were supposed to be in the previous reply. The Sony is smaller and the grip isn't really making it fatter as even the smallest lenses are protruding out more. I love the A6400 with better EVF, grip and autofocus. The XE4 is gripless and has a poor EVF, the GX85 EVF is poor too (for my eyes). The A6400 costs around £500 used. I got a mint condition one last week for £550.

[ac6000cw]

But the A6400/6500/6600 have very high rolling shutter in 4k (and not-so-good FHD quality), which has always ruled them out for me.

The recent A6700 with its new sensor, half the rolling shutter time, 10-bit and 4k60p support looks a much better video tool, but it's chunkier, heavier and twice the price of the A6400. But if I were to move away from micro4/3, it would definitely be on my 'serious consideration' list.

[zlfan]

nothing beats gopro12, for its ibis and its size. just not useful in low light. 

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, zlfan said:

nothing beats gopro12, for its ibis and its size. just not useful in low light. 

Needs to be a DSLM. Also, we don't talk about action cams anymore on this forum. 🙂

 

[zlfan]

8 hours ago, zlfan said:

yes, data storage is a real concern when shoot ml raw. about 300 gb per hour footage for crop mood. for 5d3, about 500 gb per hour. some people transcode to lower format like prores444, and delete the original raw files. but transcoding takes time. the most possible approach is to have several 20tb external drives.   

from my experience, as long as don' shoot long takes, for a whole day event, it takes about 100 gb footage. so if buying 2-3 1 tgb sandisk extreme pro sd cards, will be enough for a whole vacation. or, use nextodi, buy 2-3 4tgb ssd drive. 

[Kapt43]

Yes, you're correct. The GX850/GX800/GF9 remains an impressive 4k DSLM setup from January 2017, weighing only 269g with a 14mm f/2.5 lens at 55g. No replacement has been introduced yet.

[kye]

12 hours ago, zlfan said:

nothing beats gopro12, for its ibis and its size. just not useful in low light. 

It has no IBIS.

[zlfan]

5 hours ago, kye said:

It has no IBIS.

yeh, digital is, but extremely good.