Nikon Z6III is coming.. as mini Z8

[Danyyyel]

2 hours ago, bjohn said:

Gerald Undone did test dynamic range in his video review; he didn't experience any overheating but hey, he's in Canada and he admitted that his testing environment wasn't very warm.

It does seem like a great camera; wish the IBIS was better....I think Panasonic still has the lead there.

The guy in this video did a brutal test in direct sun from Texas and the camera came out surprisingly good. It is as from 9min 50.  As for DR, I will wait for CineD lattitude test, Nikon implementation of their Nlog is so contrasty that it gives very bad result. In CineD lattitude test the z9 scored a solid 8 going to 8.5- 9 stop latitude. While most Sony's prior to the Burano where around 8 stops. Which scored a good 10!!! The only camera to equal the original Arri Alexa sensor. 

 

[Danyyyel]

16 minutes ago, Andrew Reid said:

It isn't a faster readout.

Z9 is 45 megapixel!

The Z6 III only has to read 24

So the very marginal benefit in RS is due to the lower megapixel count... 6K vs 8K, not a faster chip architecture.

Yes, but in the end we are getting what would be called very fast readout. Their is not much faster in the industry unless you go RED global shutter, the Arri Alexa has readout of 7.2 Ms, the Sony Fx3 8.4ms. 

[Danyyyel]

2 hours ago, Emanuel said:

I'd say this one in the U.S. 😆 and BMCC6K-FF are those the bets of today : )

Don't invite me for higher than that as far as price range concerns especially when overheating issues are far to be solved... : P Those are not professional capture devices, they are a pain in the ass, not a reliable camera for professional use. The use of lower resolution recording modes serves too little, these don't help either or why someone is buying them, after all?! : X

Their is a test I posted above which is quite good. Something I don't understand is the concept of professionals. Today their is hundred of thousands more event and wedding people working with these hybrid cameras than those working with Arri Alexa on set. And these tools have made the general level of videography much higher than two decades ago. 

[zlfan]

10 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

Their is a test I posted above which is quite good. Something I don't understand is the concept of professionals. Today their is hundred of thousands more event and wedding people working with these hybrid cameras than those working with Arri Alexa on set. And these tools have made the general level of videography much higher than two decades ago. 

the gap between something like z6 iii vs alexa family is getting narrower and narrower. at certain point, alexa will be truly niche product like leica s system. 

[Django]

I was waiting on this release to see if I'd go for it over the Z8/Z9. At the euro price its just not worth it to me. Very solid release nonetheless. ProRes HQ really seals the deal for me on the Nikon platform. My iMac Pro just can't deal with h265 in     +4K resolution. That and the fact that I can smart adapt all my EF, E-mount, Nikon F/AIS & Leica lenses. Probably going to pull the trigger on a used Z8/Z9. Z6iii would be a dope B-cam body down the line when price comes down a bit.

[Danyyyel]

3 minutes ago, zlfan said:

the gap between something like z6 iii vs alexa family is getting narrower and narrower. at certain point, alexa will be truly niche product like leica s system. 

I think the big move of Alexa to broadcast during the last month, with multi system, is a big clue that this model of 50+ USD cinema camera is a bit at an end. Arri is focusing on the broadcast field as it is still the industry that are investing tens of thousands of dollars in cameras. What the recent sale of RED shows is that the niche camera makers aren't as much valuable as people were thinking.  

[zlfan]

22 minutes ago, Danyyyel said:

I think the big move of Alexa to broadcast during the last month, with multi system, is a big clue that this model of 50+ USD cinema camera is a bit at an end. Arri is focusing on the broadcast field as it is still the industry that are investing tens of thousands of dollars in cameras. What the recent sale of RED shows is that the niche camera makers aren't as much valuable as people were thinking.  

broadcast industry is a double edge for alexa. uncontrolled lighting requires high dr, which is the forte of the alexa. but broadcast industry on the other hand produces one time piece. nobody watches news over and over again. for news reporting, hcb's idea of decisive moment is the key. even if a phone catches a critical scene, can make a huge viral news globally. alexas, on the other hand, are too expensive, too big, not essential for news. maybe for arena type shooting like rodeo events, alexa is suitable. but even in this case, 2/3 box lenses with 2/3 cameras have distinct advantage over alexa. i think in the broadcase industry, 2/3 cameras still rule, especially when coupled with box lenses, for non moving jobs. for quick turn around jobs, 2/3 cams with all auto superzoom lenses have the best ergonomics. i have a varicam 27h (another 27h and panavision f900 for parts), so i know that 2/3 cams have the best ergonomics than anything else in the world for shoulder mount quick turn around. in summary, alexa has a not so bright future. 

[Al Dolega]

I wonder if the partially-stacked design will give inconsistent rolling shutter performance across the sensor? Meaning the top and bottom have significantly less than the middle. 10ms overall is great of course but when RS does show up it might be even worse/weirder-looking than a slower sensor with a consistent scan rate.

[D Verco]

Probably in a technical sense, but you will never be able to see it. 

[Emanuel]

11 minutes ago, D Verco said:

Probably in a technical sense, but you will never be able to see it. 

Technical sense is different than saying from a technician sense or perspective... ;- )

[Emanuel]

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

Their is a test I posted above which is quite good. Something I don't understand is the concept of professionals. Today their is hundred of thousands more event and wedding people working with these hybrid cameras than those working with Arri Alexa on set. And these tools have made the general level of videography much higher than two decades ago. 

For sure : ) Hence hybrid tools should be seen for video as primary scope of their natural target and not stills as usually is taken. A professional is someone than runs a craft for living whatever segment of business is.

[John Matthews]

5 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

I don't understand, it was said at launch the price would be 2650 Euros and 3000 with the 24-70!!! What has happened since then. 

This is what I keep finding in France:

The pricing is also consistent with the Nikon ZF, which is also $700 more expensive (after conversion). There's no doubt about it- Nikon asks a lot more from Europeans and seems to be far more competitive in the USA. It's not unheard of though. You can get an iMac for $1200 at B&H or the same one for about $450 more in Europe. The Sony A7iv is $2500 at B&H but not much more in Europe (2500 euros). I think it's really about company policy.

What confuses me about pricing is that the Z6ii was launched at 2200 euros and $2000 respectively. With the Z6iii, Nikon is really going out of the "low-end full frame" market by bumping up the MSRP to 3000 euros. I'd always thought Nikon was more of a value brand, bang for the buck over Canon. I don't know what to think. Maybe there will be another low-end FF camera from Nikon?

[IronFilm]

14 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Why is it that Nikon hits Europeans so hard. USA price is roughly $2500 at B&H (with their credit card scheme) and in Europe it's 3000 euros ($3215) with tax. In Panasonic world, the prices are almost always lower in Europe than in the USA. That's a heavy hit.

Not just taxes, but lots of other hidden socialist/European regulatory costs. Maybe for instance consumer guarantees are higher in europe, that's a cost which has to thus be recouped somehow somewhere. 

14 hours ago, Emanuel said:

VAT... but U.S. in the most part of States also has sales tax, although much lighter...

Was rather annoyed by the 10% California tax I had to swallow today. 

 

13 hours ago, John Matthews said:

You've got to be kidding. Who does that?

Very strictly honest people?

Sure, most people won't do it! But you're technically a criminal. 

13 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Why is Panasonic almost always less expensive then? You have the same warranty laws. Seriously, Nikon is screwing the Europeans. Why? I'm not trying to be difficult. I just want to know why.

Maybe different cost structures they have to tackle the additional regulatory burdens? Or a different appetite for risk / minimizing margins. 

13 hours ago, ade towell said:

Panasonic S5ii has line level too.

The Fujifim XH2s as well, I just found out. 

Still, that's a very short list! XH2s + S5II + Z6III, only three cameras, does make them quite unique indeed. 

13 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

Will there be enough cashflow rich hobbyists in a cost of living crisis to make the Z6 III a success? Does it finally tempt the average Nikon D750 users to upgrade, and who hasn’t already? Does it tempt Canon users to trade in the R6, tired with RF mount as they might be by now?

Indeed Andrew! If I was starting out in photography (with no interest in video) I'd be hard pressed to justify spending more than the sub $400 it costs for a used Nikon D750 or D800 or the $500ish for a Nikon D500 (or if going even cheaper, the D600 for sub $300 or a D7100 for sub $200!!!) vs buying any modern Z Mount camera, not even the OG Nikon Z6 secondhand, as if a person only cares about photography, why not get a D750 for $300 less??

Plus there is the glorious range of cheap Nikon F Mount lenses! 

Maybe by 2030, by that point in time we'll probably have a tonne of dirt cheap bargain priced secondhand chinese Z Mount lenses to choose from (for instance you couldn't today easily find a half priced secondhand Meike 50mm f/1.8 AF Z Lens, but a secondhand Nikon 50mm f1.8D lens? Easy! Found one in second on eBay for under $60), and Z6 will have fallen so low in price they'll be within a whisker of D750/D800/D500 pricing. 

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, John Matthews said:

The pricing is also consistent with the Nikon ZF, which is also $700 more expensive (after conversion). There's no doubt about it- Nikon asks a lot more from Europeans and seems to be far more competitive in the USA. It's not unheard of though. You can get an iMac for $1200 at B&H or the same one for about $450 more in Europe.

$450 more above $1200 is a lot bigger percentage increase than the Z6III has in Europe 

[John Matthews]

3 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Not just taxes, but lots of other hidden socialist/European regulatory costs. Maybe for instance consumer guarantees are higher in europe, that's a cost which has to thus be recouped somehow somewhere. 

That doesn't really make any sense as other companies like Sony, Panasonic, and Fuji are not having the same hikes. Are you saying ONLY some camera companies are subject to European regulatory costs? Maybe someone can look up the price in England as they are not in Europe. Let's not make this about socialism vs. capitalism please- there's going to be a brawl. Trump, Hitler, and Stalin will inevitably enter into our chat.

4 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Was rather annoyed by the 10% California tax I had to swallow today. 

5 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Very strictly honest people?

Sure, most people won't do it! But you're technically a criminal. 

I'm sure you'll be paying the additional customs when you go back to New Zealand, right? Because a double tax makes sense? Even though if you buy something from the B&H site, you don't need to pay New York tax AND your home country tax.

6 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Maybe different cost structures they have to tackle the additional regulatory burdens? Or a different appetite for risk / minimizing margins. 

That could be. Personally, I think Nikon just follows Canon because they do it too.

5 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

$450 more above $1200 is a lot bigger percentage increase than the Z6III has in Europe 

Both are in the 1.35 times ball park. Both are horrendous IMO. Yeah, I don't buy Apple products unless they are on sale at the educational store where I live (I work in Education; so, it's legit :-) ). 

[John Matthews]

My question to ChatGPT: For some camera companies there are large differences in price between the USA and Europe. For others, there's almost no difference; sometime even less. Why?

ChatGPT response: 

The price differences for cameras between the USA and Europe can be attributed to several factors:

1. Taxes and Duties: European countries generally have higher VAT (Value-Added Tax) rates compared to sales taxes in the USA. Additionally, import duties can increase the cost of goods in Europe.
2. Currency Exchange Rates: Fluctuations in exchange rates can affect the pricing of cameras. Companies may adjust prices based on current and anticipated exchange rates to protect their margins.
3. Market Demand and Competition: Demand for certain brands and models may vary between the USA and Europe, leading companies to price their products differently. High competition in one region can drive prices down.
4. Distribution and Logistics Costs: The cost of shipping, warehousing, and distributing cameras can differ significantly between regions. Europe, with its multiple countries and languages, might incur higher logistical costs.
5. Manufacturer Pricing Strategies: Companies may adopt different pricing strategies based on their market presence and brand positioning in each region. They might price products higher in regions where they have a stronger brand reputation or lower competition.
6. Warranty and Service Costs: The cost of providing after-sales services and warranties can vary. Some regions may have stricter consumer protection laws, leading to higher service costs, which are then reflected in the retail prices.
7. Economic Conditions: Local economic conditions, including purchasing power and average income levels, can influence pricing strategies. Companies might price their products based on what they believe the local market can bear.
8. Promotional Activities and Discounts: The frequency and extent of promotions and discounts offered can differ between the USA and Europe. For instance, the USA has significant sales events like Black Friday and Cyber Monday that might not be as prominent in Europe.
9. Retail Markups: The retail landscape can differ, with different levels of markup added by retailers in each region. Retailers in one region might add higher markups compared to another, affecting the final price consumers see.

Overall, these factors combine in various ways to create the observed price differences for cameras between the USA and Europe.

-------

I can accept that. It still sucks though.

[BTM_Pix]

38 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Not just taxes, but lots of other hidden socialist/European regulatory costs

I've managed to obtain the full breakdown of this hidden socialist import duty racket that makes cameras so expensive here.

Its an absolute disgrace.

[IronFilm]

Only 2.5% spent on Trabants? Appalling! Increase that immediately. 

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

That doesn't really make any sense as other companies like Sony, Panasonic, and Fuji are not having the same hikes. Are you saying ONLY some camera companies are subject to European regulatory costs?

When there is an extra sales tax applied, then that is applied exactly evenly across all companies. 

Let's say it's a 20% tax, no matter if it is a Panasonic $2K camera or a Sony $2K camera or a Nikon  $2K camera or a Fujifilm $2K camera or a Canon $2K camera or a whatever brand, they will all need the consumer to pay exactly $400 more in taxes. 

But what if it's a more opaque cost, such as mandatory a 10yr consumer warranty on all cameras? 

Panasonic vs Fujfilm vs Canon vs etc could all have a very different idea of what that exact extra cost is to them. (although you'd hope they'd all come up with vaguely similar numbers) 

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

Maybe someone can look up the price in England as they are not in Europe.

England does have a european mindset (relatively speaking vs the USA). 

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

I'm sure you'll be paying the additional customs when you go back to New Zealand, right? Because a double tax makes sense? Even though if you buy something from the B&H site, you don't need to pay New York tax AND your home country tax.

Usually it does not make sense to ship things directly to NZ because shipping costs offered by the seller are outrageous. 

So I have for years been using a reshipping services offered by NZ Post called "YouShop", they're located in a state with 0% sales tax. 

However lately both the service offered by YouShop has fallen immesensely and the costs they charge have gone up immensely. 

So I'm toying with ditching YouShop. Am using shipito for a change, but their free shipping address the offer is unfortunately located in California (thus 10% sales tax, and I can't claim that back from California). And getting a warehouse address in a 0% sales tax State means paying shipito a subscription membership. Hmmm... not sure if I wish to commit fully to it, but if this goes well, then I think I might and start a sub with them? 

1 hour ago, John Matthews said:

That could be. Personally, I think Nikon just follows Canon because they do it too.

Often companies do look to each other, and copy what the other is doing. As in a way their competitor has "done the market research" for them be proving it in real life.

They've proven the market can afford cameras at $xxxx price point, or they've proven that consumers want Y & Z features. So they'll closely stalk each other, and mirror the moves done by the other one. 

 

[Andrew Reid]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Indeed Andrew! If I was starting out in photography (with no interest in video) I'd be hard pressed to justify spending more than the sub $400 it costs for a used Nikon D750 or D800 or the $500ish for a Nikon D500 (or if going even cheaper, the D600 for sub $300 or a D7100 for sub $200!!!) vs buying any modern Z Mount camera, not even the OG Nikon Z6 secondhand, as if a person only cares about photography, why not get a D750 for $300 less??

I am not referencing those with just $400 but the ones with reasonable money to spend, to whom 3000 euros just cannot be justified for just one single camera that does nothing really special compared to the 6 year old original model for stills. This is high-end Apple laptop pricing territory.

Also it is not within reach of those with a spare disposable $2k to upgrade from their old DSLR either.

So as a 'mid-range' camera I really just think it is too expensive.

I'd be interested to see how that $2500 market holds up.

It is either going to cannibalise the high-end and pros will buy the Z6 III, or it will suffocate the mid-range and people will just get second hand stuff instead.

It isn't a sustainable strategy. Mid range should be $2k max.