Canon struck raw, EVF and brighter zoom from XC10 “for cost reasons”

[douglaurent]

So Doug, you know my business better than I do?

I have never lost money from a camera decision, I don't see how this would buck the trend... Maybe you can enlighten me, as you are clearly a drone expert. I need the best quality 4K camera to fit on a small Droidworx.... Please name all these amazing cameras that have internal 4K with broadcast codec.

​just rent an epic and strip it down to its minimum weight, then shoot in 6k or 5k 100fps if you want to deliver top standard in 4k.  all other 4k 30fps cameras (especially 40mm full frame equivalent wide) will deliver pretty limited results anyway after post and stabilization.  this is why i would choose a gh4 with dedicated lens or a gopro 4 when my epics are not available, as they totally do the job and are much cheaper (gopro) or much more versatile (gh4).  of course you can feel free to buy a XC10 for your drone work.  just never complain about this decision later, when all facts have been so clear upfront. 

[Jimmy]

you think an epic will fit on a small droidworx? an epic would require at least 4 times the lift power. Pure nonsense.. just stop speaking shit. I am more than capable of making decisions that will make me money without some internet know it all giving me advice on a camera they have never used and on a drone they clearly know nothing about.

[douglaurent]

you think an epic will fit on a small droidworx? an epic would require at least 4 times the lift power. Pure nonsense.. just stop speaking shit. I am more than capable of making decisions that will make me money without some internet know it all giving me advice on a camera they have never used and on a drone they clearly know nothing about.

​droidworx obviously has small drones that claim they can carry an epic.  if your budget is limited to an even smaller low budget drone, you are obviously not a pro drone shooter or the project budgets don't seem to require pro results.  you obviously also didn't use the XC10 yourself on a drone.  what obviously can be everyone's conclusion after reading the XC10's specs is, that after stabilization and framing the camera's angle starts at 50mm full frame equivalency.  any aerial shooter knows that mid- to tele ranges are difficult to handle.  so a drone shooter that says he will NEVER need the option for shooting 15-40mm and is perfectly happy with ONLY receiving 40-400mm from the camera is a pretty funny person.  that's comparable to an action sports shooter that likes a new canon camera with a range limited to 15-70mm, when everybody else will be shooting 150-600mm.  so obviously the XC10 is not a suitable drone product, unless you use a second camera like a GH4 for wide angle, which means the XC10 is obsolete and you can also shoot mid- to tele range with the GH4.  let the XC10 be a nice product for a number of things, it's definitely not a logical drone camera!!!

[QMedia]

you think an epic will fit on a small droidworx? an epic would require at least 4 times the lift power. Pure nonsense.. just stop speaking shit. I am more than capable of making decisions that will make me money without some internet know it all giving me advice on a camera they have never used and on a drone they clearly know nothing about.

First off, Droidworx is now Aeronavics thanks to Lucas, but I digress. Yes Jimmy, you most certainly can put an epic on an Aeronavics craft. As a matter of fact you have your choice of at least 2 to choose from. The skyjib 8 ti-QR can carry 4.5 to 12 pounds of payload with an overall diameter of 1160 mm (45  43/64 inches) or the skyjib X4 XL ti-QR can carry 11 to 16.5 pounds with an overall diameter of just 1020 mm (40 5/52 inches). Since you did not talk about models, don't soil your shorts over Doug's response. Given your snotty retorts, sounds like you are a bit insecure about the entire matter.

[Jimmy]

ya, they are really small drones. Those tiny skyjibs are like phantoms, really.

and ya doug, anyone shooting with small drones are clearly unprofessional. No one other than someone with $70k worth of drone and camera could ever, ever make money or great shots.

I think that someone who thinks that only an epic and a beast of a drone is "professional" might, just might, be the insecure one.

btw - why are you stablising and framing at nearly 50%? Don't you use a gimbal, can't you frame your shots mid air? Maybe this is how the pros do it?

[Damphousse]

​droidworx obviously has small drones that claim they can carry an epic.  if your budget is limited to an even smaller low budget drone, you are obviously not a pro drone shooter or the project budgets don't seem to require pro results.  you obviously also didn't use the XC10 yourself on a drone.  what obviously can be everyone's conclusion after reading the XC10's specs is, that after stabilization and framing the camera's angle starts at 50mm full frame equivalency.  any aerial shooter knows that mid- to tele ranges are difficult to handle.  so a drone shooter that says he will NEVER need the option for shooting 15-40mm and is perfectly happy with ONLY receiving 40-400mm from the camera is a pretty funny person.  that's comparable to an action sports shooter that likes a new canon camera with a range limited to 15-70mm, when everybody else will be shooting 150-600mm.  so obviously the XC10 is not a suitable drone product, unless you use a second camera like a GH4 for wide angle, which means the XC10 is obsolete and you can also shoot mid- to tele range with the GH4.  let the XC10 be a nice product for a number of things, it's definitely not a logical drone camera!!!

​I am not a drone shooter.  I am not a professional.  I'm trying to understand this.  The Canon Canon XC10 on the wide end is 27.3mm in video.  How are you getting 50mm from that for drone work?

 

This is a drone video shot on a BMPCC with a 12mm lens.  No Speedbooster.  So I guess it is starting off with 34.56mm (12mm x 2.88 crop factor).  This stuff seems okay.

 

 

[Jimmy]

It is more than ok.... If you can control the jello on the BMPCC, it is great for drone work.

As ever on the internet, this guy is talking about his specific needs (ultra wide panoramas) rater than considering how other people work.

For instance we shoot drone footage for bmw and merc, usually at racetracks when they are testing their prototypes. They like aerial work and ground work to see various angles of the car in motion. Having a longer lens is often beneficial here, as we can get close ups of the cars without hovering dangerously above ridiculously expensive prototypes. We often just hover, almost like a flying tripod.

[Sekhar]

​I am not a drone shooter.  I am not a professional.  I'm trying to understand this.  The Canon Canon XC10 on the wide end is 27.3mm in video.  How are you getting 50mm from that for drone work?

 

This is a drone video shot on a BMPCC with a 12mm lens.  No Speedbooster.  So I guess it is starting off with 34.56mm (12mm x 2.88 crop factor).  This stuff seems okay.

 

 

​That's some great looking footage, wow. The most impressive thing for me was that most of the shots seemed to make meaningful use of the drone rather than just produce eye candy like typical drone footage does.

[douglaurent]

i am not sad when people are confused because that seems to mean less competition.  it's just sad that canon will continue with their poliitics if too many consumers buy all the bullshit stories and lame products that might be an excuse for a 5D4 not having 4k.  the full frame equivalent of the XC10 plus some stabilization and framing means it starts at 50mm.  of course you can do great aerials at 50mm and even 100mm, but who can work with a drone camera that can not do wide angle at all?   of course an action sports shooter will do some great shots with a 24-70mm zoom, but if he was limited to one fixed lens only, he would decide on a 150-600mm zoom.  and if your drone camera XC10 doesn't cover the 15-35mm full frame range at all, it's just not a specialized drone camera.  that should be pretty easy to recognize!

[Jimmy]

Why do you keep banging on about 50mm.... Is your footage really that badly framed and shaky that you need over 40% of the frame to stabilize and recompose? When I have used a GH4 on a zenmuse, I rarely have to stabilize at all, unless it was crazy windy.

To me, it feels like you have dug yourself a hole and are now trying to dig back out using the "I'm a pro, I know something you don't" attitude.

Please inform us all how shooting at 27mm equates to 50mm, if you are using a good 3 axis gimbal and don't need to massively recompose your shots? Maybe we are all missing something?

[douglaurent]

Why do you keep banging on about 50mm.... Is your footage really that badly framed and shaky that you need over 40% of the frame to stabilize and recompose? When I have used a GH4 on a zenmuse, I rarely have to stabilize at all, unless it was crazy windy.

To me, it feels like you have dug yourself a hole and are now trying to dig back out using the "I'm a pro, I know something you don't" attitude.

Please inform us all how shooting at 27mm equates to 50mm, if you are using a good 3 axis gimbal and don't need to massively recompose your shots? Maybe we are all missing something?

​dude, i won't explain all those things for a fourth time.  after reading andrews article and all the XC10 canon specs in fact you already had 5 chances to realize that this is not a drone camera.  if you think it is, because you only shoot in no windy places and between mid and tele range, then go ahead and buy this item. if this thread didnt make you, but a lot of other potential customers think more critically about canon's product strategies, my only intention to write here has been successful. 

[jpfilmz]

​dude, i won't explain all those things for a fourth time.  after reading andrews article and all the XC10 canon specs in fact you already had 5 chances to realize that this is not a drone camera.  if you think it is, because you only shoot in no windy places and between mid and tele range, then go ahead and buy this item. if this thread didnt make you, but a lot of other potential customers think more critically about canon's product strategies, my only intention to write here has been successful. 

Guess no one bothered to look at the video I posted earlier. It seemed to work well for that guy.

[Jimmy]

He's obviously not a professional.

[Jimmy]

This is all Andrew has to say about drone use, and it is wrong (again, more talk from someone wh doesn't use drones)

"It’s great for a drone, claims Westfall – yet the large zoom lens cannot be operated remotely so is therefore useless on a drone"

You would just put the lens at 27mm and fly... Not many, if any, drone operators would be using a zoom while flying... Just do it with the copter. Controlling aperture would b nice, but not essential.

[Sekhar]

This is all Andrew has to say about drone use, and it is wrong (again, more talk from someone wh doesn't use drones)

"It’s great for a drone, claims Westfall – yet the large zoom lens cannot be operated remotely so is therefore useless on a drone"

You would just put the lens at 27mm and fly... Not many, if any, drone operators would be using a zoom while flying... Just do it with the copter. Controlling aperture would b nice, but not essential.

​If you're going to use the XC10 set at wide, the fixed slow and heavy zoom is a liability for drone use, wouldn't you say? An interchangeable lens camera with a prime would be preferable in that scenario.

[Jimmy]

It is not perfect... But usable.

For the price... 4k 12 stop 4:2:2 would be worth jumping through a few hoops.

I'm in no way committed to this camera... But there is potential for quality drone footage that is better than gh4 (on paper)

[StenR]

Here's the drone operator's blog entry on the X10 demo shoot:
http://helivatefilms.com/canon-xc-10-and-drones/

[camerageek]

At no point in your write up do you discuss bit rate, codec or dynamic range.  Yes we get it, you dislike Canon and think they should charge 10% of the price for the product that they come out with.  You do discuss the price of 2500, which includes a CFast 64gb card and card reader so people can use it out of the box since they know the target customer doesn't have this media yet...  The bit rate btw at 4K is north of 300Mbps, more than triple the two cameras you mentioned in XFAVC which is a derivative of XAVC a more modern and efficient codec than the Panasonic FZ1000's MP4... how do I know this, because they use AVCULTRA in the GH4... oh but at only 100Mbps at 4K...  Again we get it you don't like Canon, but I would think you could look at some of this objectively.  

[leeys]

Here's the drone operator's blog entry on the X10 demo shoot:
http://helivatefilms.com/canon-xc-10-and-drones/

"​ On occasion while flying this camera when we would looks straight down the lens would slide out, and we would have to land to fix it."

I guess this shows the conflict between stills and video in one way - a video-oriented powered zoom won't have that issue.

[Oliver Daniel]

"​ On occasion while flying this camera when we would looks straight down the lens would slide out, and we would have to land to fix it."

I guess this shows the conflict between stills and video in one way - a video-oriented powered zoom won't have that issue.

Well if the zoom falls out of place when looking down, then the XC10 is borderline useless for drones. 

I work with drone guys on a regular basis using SJ1000 and SJ800, they always use GH4s with the Olympus 12mm. 

My opinion from the outlook is the XC10 is a confused product and needs to be half the price to even consider.