docmoore Posted April 24, 2015 Share Posted April 24, 2015 So the DB 16M is out and not a lot of discussion.What I have seen is stunning...Thoughts? Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damphousse Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera does 30p global shutter and active M43 mount for $995. $1,500 with monitor. Why would anyone pay $2,999 for a dumb mount camera? Besides XLR inputs what does the Digital Bolex have the BMMCC doesn't? Honest question. Why the $1,500 premium for a dumb mount? Oh, hold on you are talking about the micro four thirds mount Digital Bolex. That thing is $3,699! I think these guys missed their opportunity. I guess we have to see what the image from the BMMCC is like. If it is comparable to the Digital Bolex then they are toast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docmoore Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 Blackmagic Micro Cinema Camera does 30p global shutter and active M43 mount for $995. $1,500 with monitor. Why would anyone pay $2,999 for a dumb mount camera? Besides XLR inputs what does the Digital Bolex have the BMMCC doesn't? Honest question. Why the $1,500 premium for a dumb mount? Oh, hold on you are talking about the micro four thirds mount Digital Bolex. That thing is $3,699! I think these guys missed their opportunity. I guess we have to see what the image from the BMMCC is like. If it is comparable to the Digital Bolex then they are toast.The DB Mono has a monochrome sensor ... like the RED Epic Mono or the Leica Monochrom... have had two of the Leica Monochrom cameras I think that the difference in the sensor from a Bayer array is major and worth the difference in cost ... I would prefer a A7s mono or a BMMCC mono but they do not exist. So the Bolex is some 38K less than the RED ... and having owned a RED One and RED EPIC I prefer something a bit smaller ... the fan on the EPIC made an objectionable amount of noise ... Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 it's a pretty specific niche camera, but of course it's interesting. can you post footage you've seen? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted April 25, 2015 Super Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 I bought the regular D16 (not the M) since its imo pretty much a bmpcc mkiii (the micro is the mkii) and priced similar to anything Blackmagic if you look at what they charge for specs. The way I saw it was bmpcc + SDs for 2h raw + a Tascam DR 100ii + The battery I use for my Blackmagic + a rig to hold it and to help with handheld = $1-1.5k.Then it's the added Global Shutter which is another $500 if you go micro. Of course then you need a monitor also but let's call it even for the 60fps.Then there is no more Moire. What that is worth is individual but I would gladly have payed $500 for it in a bmpcc update.Some other small things like higher resolution, last clip deletion, full size HDMI, off load to CF and such might be worth a little to some. And lastly it's the CCD and the look that gives. And this is the whole point actually. Either you want it or you don't. I did and its worth atleast $500 for me.When I added it all up its imo worth around $2,5-3k. Pretty fare for a cinema camera with those specs if you ask me (I paid 2.3k for the 500gb version and an mft mount is $350 if I decide to get that in the future).That's atleast how I viewed it. For those that don't I totally understand. We all like different gear and looks.So if I was buying it for the same reasons but with the intention to shoot B&W only I would of course consider it because of the extra stop of DR it gives.Ive only seen I think one demo from the M but that looked really good. Liam and TheRenaissanceMan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrgl Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Then there is no more Moire. What that is worth is individual but I would gladly have payed $500 for it in a bmpcc update.Every camera sensor suffers from aliasing, even CCD sensors.You should read up on what an OLPF is. Edit: I googled "bmpcc olpf"First result points right back to this forum.The "upgrade" costs 115 less than what you'd pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted April 25, 2015 Super Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 Every camera sensor suffers from aliasing, even CCD sensors.You should read up on what an OLPF is. Edit: I googled "bmpcc olpf"First result points right back to this forum.The "upgrade" costs 115 less than what you'd pay for it.I don't need to read up on what I already know.My statement stands: I rather pay $500 extra for a bmpcc if they filtered it out completely than for example buy a mosaic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docmoore Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 it's a pretty specific niche camera, but of course it's interesting. can you post footage you've seen?Here And the color version is very appealing: Bob Liam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damphousse Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 And lastly it's the CCD and the look that gives. And this is the whole point actually. Either you want it or you don't. I did and its worth atleast $500 for me..I forgot about the CCD. I was always fixated on the Digital Bolex's global shutter. It's been so long since I've taken a hard look at that camera. What you say makes sense. It is unique. The DB Mono has a monochrome sensor ... like the RED Epic Mono or the Leica Monochrom... have had two of the Leica Monochrom cameras I think that the difference in the sensor from a Bayer array is major and worth the difference in cost ... I would prefer a A7s mono or a BMMCC mono but they do not exist.Oh, you were interested in the monochrome. I think it is just too niche. I shoot, develop, and print my own black and white analog photographic film and I am not a fan of black and white movies. I don't know why. As much as I love black and white prints I really can't stand black and white movies. I watch them because the story and acting is good but I merely tolerate the black and white aspect. Technologically though I do understand the benefit of a B&W sensor versus a traditional Bayer. I've wondered why B&W DSLRs aren't more popular. B&W pictures are used somewhat commercially. Considering the thousands people spend on lenses they could spend a fraction of that on a B&W sensor and pick up a lot more resolution and tonality. Again though... maybe it is too niche. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docmoore Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 I forgot about the CCD. I was always fixated on the Digital Bolex's global shutter. It's been so long since I've taken a hard look at that camera. What you say makes sense. It is unique. Oh, you were interested in the monochrome. I think it is just too niche. I shoot, develop, and print my own black and white analog photographic film and I am not a fan of black and white movies. I don't know why. As much as I love black and white prints I really can't stand black and white movies. I watch them because the story and acting is good but I merely tolerate the black and white aspect. Technologically though I do understand the benefit of a B&W sensor versus a traditional Bayer. I've wondered why B&W DSLRs aren't more popular. B&W pictures are used somewhat commercially. Considering the thousands people spend on lenses they could spend a fraction of that on a B&W sensor and pick up a lot more resolution and tonality. Again though... maybe it is too niche.You are correct ... I tend to prefer low contrast color over low contrast BW but if the subject is right then great tonality in BW is hard to beat ... thinking Santa Fe, Greece, in summer light.And I prefer BW for stills ... which is why I loved the Monochrom and a decent print on glossy paper ... as matte seems to not convey the depth of the blacks in digital printing.The CCD color does grade well to BW so it may be a decent compromise ... with a decent LUT. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted April 25, 2015 Super Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 I did this unboxing in part B&W and part Color with the D16.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flA-NBROjAI Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docmoore Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 Mattias, Loved it. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted April 25, 2015 Super Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 Thanks Bob BTW, stumbled by accident on another feature that the camera apparently has, that I was clueless about, but not yet enabled. In a thread about stop motion Joe Rubinstein replied. I especially like the "what do you think" part. Always nice to be able to give inputs. So what are the best options for stop motion?We have a blutooth / wifi card in the camera we have never enabled:1. We could create a phone app to use with wifi.2. We could create a phone app to use with blutooth.3. We could create a custom Lanc box for the bottom of the camera.4. We could enable the cranks to fire one frame.5. We could enable one of the USB ports to allow camera control and create a custom app that fires one frame.What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.f.r. Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Problem with the DB16 is noise/iso ,simply unacceptable in 2015 for a camera to not be able to go above 800 iso.This is a very specialized camera that came out a couple of years too late and overpriced..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docmoore Posted April 25, 2015 Author Share Posted April 25, 2015 Problem with the DB16 is noise/iso ,simply unacceptable in 2015 for a camera to not be able to go above 800 iso.This is a very specialized camera that came out a couple of years too late and overpriced.....Your reasoning is CMOS centric ... none of the CCDs can go above 800 without very objectionable noise ... I have owned the Hasselblad H3 39 Leica S and S2 multiple versions of the Leica M color rangefinders original Canon 1D and none were high iso cameras. The Leica Monochrome does well up to 10K iso. Which is why the new H5 50 CMOS and Pentax MF CMOS cameras were introduced.Again ... DB16M is 4K with battery grip and 1TB SSD ... the very proprietary 1TB SSD for my CD Odyssey 7Q+ is 1400. The smallest RED mono is 26500 one needs to add media at 1450 per 240gb and battery at 350 for one Red Volt XL and extra for a charger.I have a Sony A7s with the CD Odyssey 7Q+ ... high iso is not a problem. The DB16/16M is very specialized may be a bit overpriced ...I would prefer a small easily handheld camera with great color and DR .... the A7s is OK but with the Odyssey is tripod only.Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.f.r. Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Your reasoning is CMOS centric ... none of the CCDs can go above 800 without very objectionable noise ... I have owned the Hasselblad H3 39 Leica S and S2 multiple versions of the Leica M color rangefinders original Canon 1D and none were high iso cameras. The Leica Monochrome does well up to 10K iso. Which is why the new H5 50 CMOS and Pentax MF CMOS cameras were introduced.Again ... DB16M is 4K with battery grip and 1TB SSD ... the very proprietary 1TB SSD for my CD Odyssey 7Q+ is 1400. The smallest RED mono is 26500 one needs to add media at 1450 per 240gb and battery at 350 for one Red Volt XL and extra for a charger.I have a Sony A7s with the CD Odyssey 7Q+ ... high iso is not a problem. The DB16/16M is very specialized may be a bit overpriced ...I would prefer a small easily handheld camera with great color and DR .... the A7s is OK but with the Odyssey is tripod only.BobPoint blank period in 2015 this camera is overpriced and unusable in too many applications due to iso/noise. Outside of "niche" no one would buy this camera as their main tool, let alone their second. This is "specialized" for artistic purposes as stated. All the bitrates, codec mean nothing when you can't shoot past 6pm or don't have a full light kit..... That Dynamic range is even less as soon as you raise that short iso as well. DB16 a great artistic tool when used with plenty of light, but so are many other cameras with less noise. They could slash the price in half of the DB16 and people still wouldn't buy it....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Members Mattias Burling Posted April 25, 2015 Super Members Share Posted April 25, 2015 Point blank period in 2015 this camera is overpriced and unusable in too many applications due to iso/noise. Outside of "niche" no one would buy this camera as their main tool, let alone their second. This is "specialized" for artistic purposes as stated. All the bitrates, codec mean nothing when you can't shoot past 6pm or don't have a full light kit..... That Dynamic range is even less as soon as you raise that short iso as well. DB16 a great artistic tool when used with plenty of light, but so are many other cameras with less noise. They could slash the price in half of the DB16 and people still wouldn't buy it.......I havent tested it fully yet but so far it is better than the BMPC in lowlight. And I have shot with that after sunset with no problem (it to have a undeserved reputation. Its to early to say but I can at least say that its not far off from the pocket either (might even be on par).If they slashed the price in half I would buy second. Like I said to me it is the BMPCC mkiii. After shooting for a couple of years with the BMCC, BMPCC and BMPC and adding up what features I liked and disliked as well as read all the bmpcc mkii wish lists I simply realized that the D16 ticked all my boxes. And it is priced just the same as the BMDs imo.I totally respect that its not for you but I always have a hard time with the "I speak for everyone" attitude. I mean you like the A7s and I can't find one good reason for me to buy it. Thats just how it is, we need/like different stuff /MEDIT: Another example is that you think lowlight is a must in 2015. I say Global Shutter, once I got used to it a Rolling is just out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzynormal Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 Anyone that thinks they know what I want or should have for my work without knowing anything about me makes me skeptical of that person's opinion. You're not me. I'm not you.My advice is to try and have a little empathy. Attempt to see things from a POV that's not your own. That's a healthy thing to do in life. Avoid being intellectually calcified.Regardless, wasn't the Bolex was always meant to be niche? If anything, they might be ahead of the curve as I think the future of digital video is going to move into specialized gear and less mass market...as the most likely scenario is that the mass consumer market is going to continue to dwindle for cameras. Mattias Burling 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.f.r. Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 I havent tested it fully yet but so far it is better than the BMPC in lowlight. And I have shot with that after sunset with no problem (it to have a undeserved reputation. Its to early to say but I can at least say that its not far off from the pocket either (might even be on par).If they slashed the price in half I would buy second. Like I said to me it is the BMPCC mkiii. After shooting for a couple of years with the BMCC, BMPCC and BMPC and adding up what features I liked and disliked as well as read all the bmpcc mkii wish lists I simply realized that the D16 ticked all my boxes. And it is priced just the same as the BMDs imo.I totally respect that its not for you but I always have a hard time with the "I speak for everyone" attitude. I mean you like the A7s and I can't find one good reason for me to buy it. Thats just how it is, we need/like different stuff /MEDIT: Another example is that you think lowlight is a must in 2015. I say Global Shutter, once I got used to it a Rolling is just out.I never mentioned once the A7s in this thread......What DB16 needs to do is Fix the noise, raise the asa and bring us a better camera and a good price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richg101 Posted April 25, 2015 Share Posted April 25, 2015 It's unfortunate that so many of the replies here come from a spec sheet formed opinion. I personally couldn't afford to invest in this camera, however if i were an artist/film maker who values the benefits of true monochrome, or one who's art practice is purely in b+w this is definitely the cheapest option. It's sad that so many seem to compare this to the bmpcc and the currently not released bmmcc. It's also sad that it seems ISO's are more important than image quality to strong mouthed eoshd-ers. Rag the hell out of a b+w sensor and i imagine the grain is rather pleasing - as it is when you rag monochrome film. it;s only colour noise that looks nasty. film grain looks lush sudopera, docmoore, SleepyWill and 3 others 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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