Let's bring back the good, old-fashioned camcorder of the 1990-2000s, but with modern specs.

[John Matthews]

I inherited my grandfather's 16mm Bell & Howell last summer. It was a great piece of equipment back in the day. I filmed my daughter on a miniDV camcorder and this week I picked up a Panasonic VX980. It made me suddenly consider ditching everything else as it's so much fun to shoot on with its glorious 400g body, auto features, and 31-626mm equiv. (1800mm digital is usable in 1080p) lens. I might find myself wanting more later, but for now I'm loving it. Amazing, for an "old" Panasonic, it has great AF. There's no real fussing about with Picture Profiles either. You just open the screen and record 1080p 50fps at 50mbps. Shooting inside? Sure it's noisy but cleans up nicely with Topaz. I just throw Film Convert on it and it looks great, with a clear, sharp, rather detailed image with nice color.

Anyone else shooting these?

[Clark Nikolai]

41 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

 I filmed my daughter on a miniDV camcorder and this week I picked up a Panasonic VX980. ...

Anyone else shooting these?

I agree. There's an ergonomic thing with camcorders that I'd like to see done again but with raw or something.  I still shoot with an eight year old Sony HD camcorder because it's so easy to use and produces beautiful results. 5-axis image stabilization, 20x zoom lens, 5.1 stereo mic, etc. The only drawback to it is that it records to H.264 only. I had a wish that they would make the same thing but that it would record in some type of raw format. Storage is so cheap nowadays that they could put in a 1 or 2TB SSD and it would still be affordable and hold a lot of footage. I would not hesitate to shoot a feature narrative on such a thing if it existed.

[John Matthews]

4 minutes ago, Clark Nikolai said:

I agree. There's an ergonomic thing with camcorders that I'd like to see done again but with raw or something.  I still shoot with an eight year old Sony HD camcorder because it's so easy to use and produces beautiful results. 5-axis image stabilization, 20x zoom lens, 5.1 stereo mic, etc. The only drawback to it is that it records to H.264 only. I had a wish that they would make the same thing but that it would record in some type of raw format. Storage is so cheap nowadays that they could put in a 1 or 2TB SSD and it would still be affordable and hold a lot of footage. I would not hesitate to shoot a feature narrative on such a thing if it existed.

Yes, that would be great to have H.265, prores, or even raw. In the end, I like the deep focus. Shallow focus is really starting to look cliché at this point. My other cameras do it but framing and POV seem more important to me now. Also, I'm not seeing any issues with moiré at this point either unlike many larger cameras that I have.

[John Matthews]

The Panasonic HC-VX980 shoots decent 4k in the right hands too:

 

[PannySVHS]

TM700 should be dirt cheap and tons of fun. I would love a compact 3 sensor 2/3" or one sensor 1 inch camera with a good 422 codec. Both won't materialize I assume, the former not by any margin at all. Anyway, 3 1/4" fun and HD beauty with the TM700. A bit green but still a well done video:

 

[John Matthews]

12 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

TM700 should be dirt cheap and tons of fun. I would love a compact 3 sensor 2/3" or one sensor 1 inch camera with a good 422 codec. Both won't materialize I assume, the former not by any margin at all. Anyway, 3 1/4" fun and HD beauty with the TM700. A bit green but still a well done video:

 

That was super-cool! Yes. the grade was too green and would have been way better with "sunny look" to it, but the shots themselves were very nice; clearly filmed by someone with a decent eye. I saw one for about 250 euros. Detail is close to 4k and seemingly shoots above its weight.

[KnightsFan]

I loved old camcorder ergonomics. Large battery on the back, flip out screen on the side, nice slot for your hand on the right. The Sony NEXVG900 was a neat concept, but I guess it didn't sell because it was a one off.

[Matt Kieley]

I've been saying this for years. The DVX100 had the best ergonomics/size of any camera I've ever owned and was a joy to shoot. And it had a global shutter. 

[MrSMW]

Maybe it’s my photographer roots, but I am the other way and don’t like the camcorder. Never have and I have had several.

The best of these was the Sony FD-AX700 which are still holding their price well on the used market.

I built a system around that same 1” sensor with the camcorder static for all my long duration stuff, the RX10ii ‘bridge’ camera as my main unit, plus the RX100v as my literally in my pocket 3rd unit.

The output was OK, but ultimately was not overly keen on it and found that for my kind of work, not robust enough, especially if shooting in low light.

And as for the handling, the camcorder I always found the most awkward in hand. But each to their own and all that! 

[John Matthews]

13 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Maybe it’s my photographer roots, but I am the other way and don’t like the camcorder. Never have and I have had several.

The best of these was the Sony FD-AX700 which are still holding their price well on the used market.

I built a system around that same 1” sensor with the camcorder static for all my long duration stuff, the RX10ii ‘bridge’ camera as my main unit, plus the RX100v as my literally in my pocket 3rd unit.

The output was OK, but ultimately was not overly keen on it and found that for my kind of work, not robust enough, especially if shooting in low light.

And as for the handling, the camcorder I always found the most awkward in hand. But each to their own and all that! 

This has been a long story of ergonomics. Once manufacturers found a way to put super zooms in a small form-factor, it really complicated things as they weren't putting big sensors in them anymore. Along come the still cameras with rather crappy video specs but decent low-light and more ability for selective focus. What many of us want is the camcorder form-factor with a large sensor and a super zoom. Alas, the large size is the problem. It seems if you want selective focus on the wide end, you need a big camera.

Essentially, holding a camcorder is like cradling a medium-sized lens with a screen attached to it as if you're getting communion at church. For me, as long as the weight is under control, I love it. With still cameras, you always end up fighting a downward pulling body with your left hand unless you also bring it to your eye. It's not bad, but camcorders are better for shooting at the hip IMO.

[MrSMW]

Modular.

That’s my answer!

Start with a cube and build everything off that.

Want a battery grip, add that option.

Want a side (either or both) or top handle, add it.

External SSD, top, side or below, you choose.

External monitor, top or rear.

Some kind of rifle stock? Add it.

Then if the camcorder thing is your jam, a power zoom.

The only thing about the available box style cameras is the lack of IBIS. Are there any?

I really wanted to build a hybrid set up off the Lumix BS1H but quickly discovered that for hybrid use, too many compromises. I could probably live without the IBIS as OIS lenses are available, but the number available already limits things massively.

Add the monitor OK, but then no mech shutter which with Z8/Z9 sophistication is OK, but not with 4-5 year old Lumix.

Ditto Sigma FP. Not quite a box, but so close and yet so far from my needs which to this day, are still best served by the MILC.

I really would like to see more innovation in this regard rather than ‘spec’ and the MP arms race.

[John Matthews]

39 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Modular.

That’s my answer!

Start with a cube and build everything off that.

Want a battery grip, add that option.

Want a side (either or both) or top handle, add it.

External SSD, top, side or below, you choose.

External monitor, top or rear.

Some kind of rifle stock? Add it.

Then if the camcorder thing is your jam, a power zoom.

The only thing about the available box style cameras is the lack of IBIS. Are there any?

I really wanted to build a hybrid set up off the Lumix BS1H but quickly discovered that for hybrid use, too many compromises. I could probably live without the IBIS as OIS lenses are available, but the number available already limits things massively.

Add the monitor OK, but then no mech shutter which with Z8/Z9 sophistication is OK, but not with 4-5 year old Lumix.

Ditto Sigma FP. Not quite a box, but so close and yet so far from my needs which to this day, are still best served by the MILC.

I really would like to see more innovation in this regard rather than ‘spec’ and the MP arms race.

Yes. The modular approach is nice, but it starts looking like a Swiss army knife with all of its blades out.

The beauty of the camcorder is when everything is one package. No add-ons, no matte box, no monitor, no cables, no SSD's, no follow focus system, no cage, no rails, etc. Pick up a camcorder, open the screen, hit record. You get a buttery smooth zoom, a detailed image with everything in-focus. Nice. I just want manufacturers to push the format a little more:

• slightly larger sensor, maybe even with less zoom
• better codecs like H.265 10bit or Prores,
• better touch screens with more definition
• a few tools like a waveform or a histogram

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

The beauty of the camcorder is when everything is one package. No add-ons, no matte box, no monitor, no cables, no SSD's, no follow focus system, no cage, no rails, etc. Pick up a camcorder, open the screen, hit record. You get a buttery smooth zoom, a detailed image with everything in-focus. Nice. I just want manufacturers to push the format a little more:

I understand.

It's a shame bridge cameras didn't really take off...

The Sony RX10ii I had was great with its f2.8 24-200mm zoom and the current (?) iv goes up to 600mm and has s-log.

But they don't seem to have captured the mass market appeal for whatever reason.

And speaking of the digital Bolex, that never worked out but there is a big market for 'retro', - just look at stuff such as the Fuji X100 and Nikon Zf, - folks love 'em.

I'm all for modern hi tech spec in olde schoole body styles and it's a shame there isn't much in the 'camcorder' market.

[Clark Nikolai]

4 hours ago, John Matthews said:

• better codecs like H.265 10bit or Prores,

Oh, I'm dreaming of even more. I'm thinking of internal raw recording in a camcorder. (It would likely have to be uncompressed raw because of Red's patent but if I'm dreaming here it would be ProResRaw and/or BRaw.)

I'm thinking of the type of narrative filmmaking where you have actors and all but the filming situation is such that you don't have much control over the setting (or much time with the location). You need to set up fast and get the shots and move on. A camcorder is perfect for that. It would need some type of timecode jam sync for any external audio recorder(s). 

 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, Clark Nikolai said:

Oh, I'm dreaming of even more. I'm thinking of internal raw recording in a camcorder. (It would likely have to be uncompressed raw because of Red's patent but if I'm dreaming here it would be ProResRaw and/or BRaw.)

I'm thinking of the type of narrative filmmaking where you have actors and all but the filming situation is such that you don't have much control over the setting (or much time with the location). You need to set up fast and get the shots and move on. A camcorder is perfect for that. It would need some type of timecode jam sync for any external audio recorder(s). 

 

I have a lot more to say about this... but only have a few minutes to reply. I think I wrote a similar post years ago and one of my arguments for a camcorder is that when you are shooting a zero budget, guerrilla style film, you need to look as inconspicuous as possible and nothing says dorky dad more than a camcorder... nobody would pay you any mind whatsoever.

Now I could be content with ProRes HQ but being a raw video only shooter, I would much rather have raw.

I love the form factor of camcorders... but I also still prefer DSLRs to mirrorless so I'm basically a dinosaur in today's market.

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, Clark Nikolai said:

Oh, I'm dreaming of even more. I'm thinking of internal raw recording in a camcorder. (It would likely have to be uncompressed raw because of Red's patent but if I'm dreaming here it would be ProResRaw and/or BRaw.)

Just trying to be more realistic by not asking for the moon. Also, raw means more power and bigger body for the most part.

39 minutes ago, mercer said:

you need to look as inconspicuous as possible and nothing says dorky dad more than a camcorder... nobody would pay you any mind whatsoever.

Yet another benefit of the form factor.

40 minutes ago, mercer said:

I also still prefer DSLRs to mirrorless so I'm basically a dinosaur in today's market.

I sold all of mine, but there's something great about framing without having the camera on.

[KnightsFan]

9 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Start with a cube and build everything off that.

Theoretically I agree, but in practice no box cameras have built the required ecosystem of accessories to create compact camcorder ergonomics. The two missing pieces are are the side handle, and the monitor. There are plenty of "dumb" side handles, but to match camcorder ergonomics it needs lots of buttons. The FS7 handle with its multiple function buttons, joystick, etc. is a starting point. There are very few good monitor options under 5", and you need bulky batteries or lots of cables. By that time you've got a cinema rig.

We could really do with some more open standards for camera controls, video, and audio. Lots of vendor lock these days in terms of accessories.

[kye]

6 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Theoretically I agree, but in practice no box cameras have built the required ecosystem of accessories to create compact camcorder ergonomics. The two missing pieces are are the side handle, and the monitor. There are plenty of "dumb" side handles, but to match camcorder ergonomics it needs lots of buttons. The FS7 handle with its multiple function buttons, joystick, etc. is a starting point. There are very few good monitor options under 5", and you need bulky batteries or lots of cables. By that time you've got a cinema rig.

We could really do with some more open standards for camera controls, video, and audio. Lots of vendor lock these days in terms of accessories.

Definitely agree about the bulk of an external monitor.

I've been bouncing between my OG BMPCC (P2K) and BMMCC (M2K!) for years now, and one of the biggest challenges of the M2K is how large the screen makes the rig, even though I have the Ikan 3.5" monitor:

• it requires a separate battery
• the mounting isn't slimline at all and so the monitor is quite far from a camera (compared to a flip or tilt screen)
• the HDMI cable takes it a very large step into "we are the Borg" territory

I've used camcorders in the past, and also have the XC10 which is a camcorder in all but body-design, but my GX85 + 12-35/2.8 setup is what I use as my main camera now and I use it like a camcorder, so I get most of the benefits:

• It looks like a little P&S (because it is) so I invoke the dorky Dad vibe
• I'm planning to also get the 14-140mm F3.5-5.6 lens to pair with it which will give it a similar all-in-one lens
• The Dual IS gives it equivalent levels of stabilisation
• It's limited to 8-bit 709 style images, but these look pretty good in reality, so has a similar limitation but also strength in that regard too
• It lets me stop thinking about the camera and start thinking about what is in front of it

[John Matthews]

I would imagine there are a lot of wedding videographers out there with a S5ii/x and 2 HC-x2000 camcorders. It makes a lot of sense. You could probably get by with a f/2.8 zoom for your handheld shots and the camcorders set on tripods for any number of other shots. Codecs also seem to play nice with each other.

[MrSMW]

23 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

I would imagine there are a lot of wedding videographers out there with a S5ii/x and 2 HC-x2000 camcorders

Ha, considered that very thing recently, ie, having that camcorder in a purely static role, but then came to the conclusion, I may as well stick with my S1H with battery grip (3+ hours so far more than my needs) and with the 70-200mm f4 on it.

Massive overkill for I need it to do, which is essentially ceremonies & speeches, but based on trade in and then purchase of a used camcorder, makes no sense, so sticking with the static S1H paired with roaming S5ii approach for my video needs.

For 2024 anyway. We'll see at the end of the season as there are various other options I might consider going forward...