Let's bring back the good, old-fashioned camcorder of the 1990-2000s, but with modern specs.

[ac6000cw]

After owning a variety of consumer/prosumer camcorders (starting with VHS-C in 1995, then several DV then HDV), I skipped DVD-based ones and decided that the memory-card based ones (that I could afford) were getting too small and light to hand-hold with reasonable stability. Also viewfinders were becoming rare other than on the higher-end camcorders.

Having noticed that reasonable video was starting to appear as a feature in 'photo' cameras, I tried a Pana TZ7/ZS3 compact, then a Sony HX9V compact and Pana FZ100 superzoom. Decided that I preferred the form-factor/handling so  moved on to a Pana G3 MILC - nice and compact, good to hold, with a decent viewfinder, video, audio and stills. Upgraded after a while to a G6 with 14-140mm lens (probably my all-time favourite lens) - much larger sensor than any consumer camcorder but still a fairly compact setup for something with a 10:1 zoom lens.

As I'm very much a hybrid shooter, I prefer the m43 'compact MILC' form-factor (and the IBIS). The only 'icing on the cake' that I'd like is a quality power-zoom lens with a decent range - the (now obsolete) Oly 12-50 is about as close as m43 has ever got to that.

So no, I wouldn't buy a 'camcorder' form-factor camera again.

(When I look at some of my old VHS-C or DV footage, it just reminds me of how far consumer/prosumer video capture has improved over time...from less-than-SD resolution, interlaced, noisy, smudgy video to pristine 50p/60p UHD from a pocket-sized camera - wow!)

[John Matthews]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Ha, considered that very thing recently, ie, having that camcorder in a purely static role, but then came to the conclusion, I may as well stick with my S1H with battery grip (3+ hours so far more than my needs) and with the 70-200mm f4 on it.

Massive overkill for I need it to do, which is essentially ceremonies & speeches, but based on trade in and then purchase of a used camcorder, makes no sense, so sticking with the static S1H paired with roaming S5ii approach for my video needs.

For 2024 anyway. We'll see at the end of the season as there are various other options I might consider going forward...

I think you're right when it comes to resale. A S1H would be more sought after than a camcorder and as such bring higher prices and less of a hit. That being said, if you were to have bought the S1H at launch, used it for 3-5 years, you'd lose 40-50% of the original purchase price, but you might have better content. The other big cost is the lenses which will also take a hit, unless you buy used to begin with. Of course the same could be said for the pro camcorder. IMO, if you buy upon release, use it for 3 years, the hit is always the biggest. I know that you buy used and very often. In most cases, you won't lose much, if any. I know I've even made money on a lot of my lenses and bodies. The only caveat is that it's almost like a 2nd job if you buy and sell yourself; hence MPB.

[John Matthews]

25 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

After owning a variety of consumer/prosumer camcorders (starting with VHS-C in 1995, then several DV then HDV), I skipped DVD-based ones and decided that the memory-card based ones (that I could afford) were getting too small and light to hand-hold with reasonable stability. Also viewfinders were becoming rare other than on the higher-end camcorders.

Having noticed that reasonable video was starting to appear as a feature in 'photo' cameras, I tried a Pana TZ7/ZS3 compact, then a Sony HX9V compact and Pana FZ100 superzoom. Decided that I preferred the form-factor/handling so  moved on to a Pana G3 MILC - nice and compact, good to hold, with a decent viewfinder, video, audio and stills. Upgraded after a while to a G6 with 14-140mm lens (probably my all-time favourite lens) - much larger sensor than any consumer camcorder but still a fairly compact setup for something with a 10:1 zoom lens.

As I'm very much a hybrid shooter, I prefer the m43 'compact MILC' form-factor (and the IBIS). The only 'icing on the cake' that I'd like is a quality power-zoom lens with a decent range - the (now obsolete) Oly 12-50 is about as close as m43 has ever got to that.

So no, I wouldn't buy a 'camcorder' form-factor camera again.

(When I look at some of my old VHS-C or DV footage, it just reminds me of how far consumer/prosumer video capture has improved over time...from less-than-SD resolution, interlaced, noisy, smudgy video to pristine 50p/60p UHD from a pocket-sized camera - wow!)

Compact super zooms are great for their size. The only problem is they become fiddly and the zooms are never smooth. Also, they're much more prone to dust on the sensor which can basically ruin them. Camcorders have none of that, but they can have more issues in low light and they are bigger as you say; yet, they are made for video, not stills like the POS.

[Clark Nikolai]

17 hours ago, kye said:

Definitely agree about the bulk of an external monitor.

 

What I'd like to see is a tiny OLED viewfinder that would connect with HDMI and 12volt DC. There are a few nice EVFs that connect to proprietary hot shoes such as the Canon EVF-DC2, FUJIFILM EVF-GFX, Sigma EVF-11, Sony FDA-EVM1K, etc. however they aren't able to be used with other cameras.

I'd like to see something like this, or an adaptor from the hot shoe connectors to HDMI and D-tap. Then if you have a cinema camera you're not left with only huge EVFs (which are really just small monitors with a loupe.)

The one that seems to have this potential is the Sigma EVF-11. In pictures it shows what looks like a USB-C plug, two pins, then what might be a micro-HDMI. It might be possible for there to be an adaptor to use this.

[PannySVHS]

I think I gonna try out some 3 x 1/3" CCD magic some time with a Panasonic HPX 171 or 151, both writing to cards, p2 cards and 8bit 422 100mbit DvcproHD the former, sd and 8bit 420 25mbit Avchd the latter. They would function as a Dvx100 Andromeda substitute:) @Matt Kieley Both are sporting less than perfect 1080p resolution and higher framerates at 50/60p in 720p or 1080i. For best image quality of the bunch it would be a HPX250 with perfect 1080p even at 50/60p, also sporting a 3 x 1/3" sensor design plus 10bit 100mbit 422. No CCD magic though. 3 x CCD and perfect HD with high bit rates comes in big shoulder cameras only. But then some 2/3" calibers. And a Varicam among them. Would like to find out which one is the smallest of these biggies. This thread has the potential for a perfect nerd cave. Great place to be. 🙂

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, John Matthews said:

unless you buy used to begin with

Yup; body, grip and lens, all used from MPB!

 

[kye]

10 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

(When I look at some of my old VHS-C or DV footage, it just reminds me of how far consumer/prosumer video capture has improved over time...from less-than-SD resolution, interlaced, noisy, smudgy video to pristine 50p/60p UHD from a pocket-sized camera - wow!)

I've been watching the TV show M*A*S*H (1972-1983) and I'm finding it really interesting:

• The storytelling trumps the image quality, and it only takes a few seconds to stop looking at the image and start paying attention to the content
• It was shot on 35mm film, but was before colour grading, so the image is about as pure as you get
• The image is rather drab in comparison to any image that has been colour graded
• Whenever they cut to a shot that fades out or does a freeze frame the image degrades significantly in resolution and the colours and contrast shift significantly, presumably because it had to go through another generation to add the effect, so the quality and resolution limits are no joke

However, having said that, the skin-tones and the high-DR external shots filmed in full direct sun are world class, even compared to the flagship cameras of today from ARRI.

It makes it obvious that ARRI are in the business of making cameras with as many film-quality pixels as possible, and everyone else is in the business of making cameras with as many pixels as possible and letting quality fall where it may.

[kye]

6 hours ago, Clark Nikolai said:

What I'd like to see is a tiny OLED viewfinder that would connect with HDMI and 12volt DC. There are a few nice EVFs that connect to proprietary hot shoes such as the Canon EVF-DC2, FUJIFILM EVF-GFX, Sigma EVF-11, Sony FDA-EVM1K, etc. however they aren't able to be used with other cameras.

I'd like to see something like this, or an adaptor from the hot shoe connectors to HDMI and D-tap. Then if you have a cinema camera you're not left with only huge EVFs (which are really just small monitors with a loupe.)

The one that seems to have this potential is the Sigma EVF-11. In pictures it shows what looks like a USB-C plug, two pins, then what might be a micro-HDMI. It might be possible for there to be an adaptor to use this.

With all the digital standards out there it's unfortunate that no consumer camera manufacturer developed the hot shoe as a modular communication standard.  We could have had add-on EVFs, microphones and audio adapters, monitors, timecode boxes, etc.  

The argument that they wouldn't have sold becomes quite different if you think of the potential sales of accessories over 10 or 20 years of cameras that supported them.  Imagine if you could buy an adapter that mounted into the hot-shoe and gave two or three hot-shoes across the top of the camera (maybe only to the left to avoid the dials) and you could put whatever you wanted in there.  USB was released in 1996, almost 30 years ago with 12Mbps, and by 2008 it had 5Gbps, so it's not like the technology in, say, 2004 wasn't there yet.

[Matt Kieley]

12 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I think I gonna try out some 3 x 1/3" CCD magic some time with a Panasonic HPX 171 or 151, both writing to cards, p2 cards and 8bit 422 100mbit DvcproHD the former, sd and 8bit 420 25mbit Avchd the latter. They would function as a Dvx100 Andromeda substitute:) @Matt Kieley Both are sporting less than perfect 1080p resolution and higher framerates at 50/60p in 720p or 1080i. For best image quality of the bunch it would be a HPX250 with perfect 1080p even at 50/60p, also sporting a 3 x 1/3" sensor design plus 10bit 100mbit 422. No CCD magic though. 3 x CCD and perfect HD with high bit rates comes in big shoulder cameras only. But then some 2/3" calibers. And a Varicam among them. Would like to find out which one is the smallest of these biggies. This thread has the potential for a perfect nerd cave. Great place to be. 🙂

I was recently considering getting an HPX170 for a project, although I couldn't really justify spending the money. But there are some good videos on youtube demonstrating what handling the footage with modern upscaling and color grading software can do for cameras like it.

It seems the majority people still actively using these cameras are Skate videographers.

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, Matt Kieley said:

I was recently considering getting an HPX170 for a project, although I couldn't really justify spending the money. But there are some good videos on youtube demonstrating what handling the footage with modern upscaling and color grading software can do for cameras like it.

Those cameras are a bit too big for me. I'm really hoping for a small 2/3 inch sensor with modern codecs and frame rates. I'd like sub 400g but happy with sub 500g. I'm thinking an enclosed LX10 lens with more reach and a sensor, processor, and battery slapped on the back. Something tells me that it should be possible.

[PannySVHS]

LX10 in TM700 body with 10bit 422 4K up to 60p would be perfect. @John Matthews I think small sized camcorders were used to be called palmcorders.

So, yes, 10bit palmcorders with 2/3 or 1" sensors, HLG, NDs and with solid manual operating such as focus ring and physical buttons for the essential parameters like iso, aperture, shutter and color temperature.

I still like the size of a HPX171, which is still much smaller than an EX1 and kind of a pretty camera like the legendary DVX100. So will try that one some time. Mike Krumlauf is always fun to listen to. Such an old school guy with a love for cameras and an impressive mullet. 🙂  @Matt Kieley

[philipd]

I had a TM700, it was not all brilliant, fan noise was picked up by the mics, and the codecs were not great with quite a bit of compression artifacts noticeable, but was much better than most other options at that time.  The form factor though is definitely much better than using a photography camera for video.  I moved to a camera because they supported more formats, I wanted 4K but didn't want to drop back to 25P after 50P HD (in PAL land), and no camcorders in that sort of format supported 4K @ modern frame rates, and still don't.

Unfortunately there is no money in camcorders anymore for the likes of Sony or Panasonic to invest in the R&D to go into bringing anything new out in that form factor, the mobile phone killed them off.  The mobile phone has also killed off a lot of point and shoot cameras.

MarkusPix also loves small camcorders for all the reasons discussed here. 

 

 

[PannySVHS]

Well then HPX250 for me then. Small for the form factor and as pretty as a DVX100. 😊 Or a AG170 for the CCD magic. But I think I will resist.

Will still try a TM700 some time, though not this year, I think. Appealing form factor and possibly a codec up to par with a Lumix G6. Too bad these palmcorders don't see modern 10bit successors. But I guess you're right, at the moment there doesn't seem to be a market for it. @philipd

[kye]

On 3/1/2024 at 6:36 PM, PannySVHS said:

I think small sized camcorders were used to be called palmcorders.

Ha! What a great word! 🙂 

[Al Dolega]

I added a "zoomy camera" to my quiver in 2019- the Canon XF405. Basically a bit chubbier version of the soccer-mom sized palmcorders being discussed here, with a top handle/XLR box (which comes off). 1" sensor, 25-380mm lens, C-Log3 was added via firmware about a year after which I was happy about. The XF fills a specific role in my kit and does it well- a small-enough-to-always-bring-it cam for three-point-handheld-with-the-EVF shots that need AF and smooth zooming during the shot, in good light, without a need for massive DR or super shallow DOF, in 4K60 to twin SD cards. Resolution is decent in good light, obviously doesn't match say my S5iiX's 6K-to-4K downscale FF mode, but it does look good cut with the 4K60 from APS-C mode on that camera (which is barely oversampled).

Of course I would love for it to be 10-bit and intraframe, have more external controls, be better in low-light, EVF could definitely be better, etc etc; but I'm happy with it for the $1800 I paid for it used. The XF605 checks some of those boxes for an upgrade but it's bigger than I want and still too expensive. Maybe in a few years when used prices drop.

The HVX/HPX/etc are still so popular with skaters/action-sport folks because they render motion so well (CCD=global shutter), there are workable fisheye adapter options for them, and they're pretty cheap nowadays which is important when your cam is often in physical danger (dropped when filmer falls while follow-filming, or cam gets kicked/hit, etc).

[Clark Nikolai]

16 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

I added a "zoomy camera" to my quiver in 2019- the Canon XF405. Basically a bit chubbier version of the soccer-mom sized palmcorders being discussed here, with a top handle

It's a great camera. Now, imagine it with global shutter and raw recording.

[Al Dolega]

Oh, I've imagined all kinds of things for it, but in the spirit of this type of camera itself (i.e. practicality), I don't expect to ever see them realized. I don't think they sell enough units to have multiple models in this space, so I doubt the XF400/XF405 will ever get direct similar-size replacement; the XF605 seems to be the replacement for both the XF405 and the bigger XF705.

Raw and global shutter would probably land flat on their face in terms of attracting the buyers of these types of cameras, who probably would be more interested in better battery life, better stabe, a longer and wider focal range, streaming and broadcast hookups, etc.

[SRV1981]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:56 AM, philipd said:

I had a TM700, it was not all brilliant, fan noise was picked up by the mics, and the codecs were not great with quite a bit of compression artifacts noticeable, but was much better than most other options at that time.  The form factor though is definitely much better than using a photography camera for video.  I moved to a camera because they supported more formats, I wanted 4K but didn't want to drop back to 25P after 50P HD (in PAL land), and no camcorders in that sort of format supported 4K @ modern frame rates, and still don't.

Unfortunately there is no money in camcorders anymore for the likes of Sony or Panasonic to invest in the R&D to go into bringing anything new out in that form factor, the mobile phone killed them off.  The mobile phone has also killed off a lot of point and shoot cameras.

MarkusPix also loves small camcorders for all the reasons discussed here. 

 

 

Is that Ken? 

[PannySVHS]

I like the formfactor of the Canon XC10/X15. Give it 10bit and a good codec, 4K60, zoom with F2 at the wide and F2.8 at the long end. Voila! I think their launch video really shown off the mojo that camera had. I like really the motion cadence and the rendering of textures. Mojo. 😊 @hyalinejimhad posted a video of his with beautiful colors achieved in Rec709. Anyway, great launch video and a great concept for a S16 cinema camera.

 

[Al Dolega]

The XF405/605/705 lens (which as far as I can tell are all the same) is faster and goes both wider and longer than the XC10 lens, which is 27-273mm f2.8-5.6; XF lens is 25-380 f2.8-4.5. Plus the XC10 lens doesn't have a servo zoom.

That awkward hood/loupe thing on the XC10 is also awful, what a convoluted way to try to make the camera cheaper to produce. The placement of the EVF on a typical photo body is fine, just needs to tilt and extend a bit like the EVF on the XF's.

Would love to have the rotating grip like the XC10 though.