Let's bring back the good, old-fashioned camcorder of the 1990-2000s, but with modern specs.

[kye]

18 hours ago, Al Dolega said:

The XF405/605/705 lens (which as far as I can tell are all the same) is faster and goes both wider and longer than the XC10 lens, which is 27-273mm f2.8-5.6; XF lens is 25-380 f2.8-4.5. Plus the XC10 lens doesn't have a servo zoom.

That awkward hood/loupe thing on the XC10 is also awful, what a convoluted way to try to make the camera cheaper to produce. The placement of the EVF on a typical photo body is fine, just needs to tilt and extend a bit like the EVF on the XF's.

Would love to have the rotating grip like the XC10 though.

Yeah, the ergonomics (and grip especially) on the XC10 was second to none.

[Snowfun]

Having read this topic I now find myself looking at a Sony AX53...

The internal gimbal is intriguing.

The ability to zoom that far (x20)  in such a small package is definitely appealing. No one would claim it has perfect image quality but at the price and for what it claims to do... definitely attractive.

[SRV1981]

Been wondering about this for years! Why not bring the sensor of modern mirrorless to camcorder bodies. 

[kye]

9 hours ago, Snowfun said:

Having read this topic I now find myself looking at a Sony AX53...

The internal gimbal is intriguing.

The ability to zoom that far (x20)  in such a small package is definitely appealing. No one would claim it has perfect image quality but at the price and for what it claims to do... definitely attractive.

The Balanced Optical Steady Shot (BOSS!) is a pretty amazing technology really - it's a pity it never got much attention.

I am a pretty big supporter of having stabilisation built-in because it means that motion is smoothed DURING the exposure rather than AFTERWARDS when the frame already has shaky motion blur baked into each frame.

My Sony X3000 action camera has BOSS and it is very impressive in practice.  I have gotten quite a number of almost gimbal-level stabilisation shots while walking, and I can tell you that I'm not that good at the ninja walk.  I haven't compared it directly to the IBIS of the GH5, or even the dual IS of Panasonic IBIS plus lens OIS, but after using the GH5 for years I found myself being impressed with the X3000.  Of course, the X3000 also has a very wide angle lens (maybe 15mm or so equivalent?) so that also helps.

The other thing that is significant about it is that it, as you say, is basically a gimbal, which keeps the optics and sensor in alignment the whole time, so it eliminates all the corner warping that comes from OIS or IBIS.

In terms of the image quality, I would suggest that with a 100Mbps 4K mode that if you add some de-sharpening (blur) and do some creative colour grading, potentially adding in some film emulation elements, that you could get a very nice image indeed.

I am definitely a fan of a setup that is flexible and can just grab shots quickly and without fuss.  Perhaps the best way to make your edits better through camera choice is to make your camera as fast and flexible as possible, and to get lots of shots and a great variety of shots, as this gives you more options in the edit.

[ac6000cw]

15 hours ago, Snowfun said:

Having read this topic I now find myself looking at a Sony AX53...

The internal gimbal is intriguing.

The ability to zoom that far (x20)  in such a small package is definitely appealing. No one would claim it has perfect image quality but at the price and for what it claims to do... definitely attractive.

 

10 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Been wondering about this for years! Why not bring the sensor of modern mirrorless to camcorder bodies. 

It's because if you have larger sensor the optics get larger as well - the sensor in the AX53 is 1/2.5" size - this is very small and allows an internal 20x zoom to be fitted inside a small (but not tiny) body.

Put in a 1" sensor (which is about 4x the sensor area) with an internal x20 zoom lens and the body would get much larger and heavier. The next level up in the Sony range is the AX700 with a 1" sensor but only a x12 zoom - it's around 2x the weight and 2.5x the price. That takes it into the price area of a good MILC with a superzoom lens e.g, the A6700 with 18-135mm lens bundle is about the same price as the AX700, but has an APS-C sensor with 4x the area of a 1" sensor, weighs less and can record 10-bit 4:2:2 4k60p & 4k120p video.

[kye]

9 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

It's because if you have larger sensor the optics get larger as well - the sensor in the AX53 is 1/2.5" size - this is very small and allows an internal 20x zoom to be fitted inside a small (but not tiny) body.

Put in a 1" sensor (which is about 4x the sensor area) with an internal x20 zoom lens and the body would get much larger and heavier. The next level up in the Sony range is the AX700 with a 1" sensor but only a x12 zoom - it's around 2x the weight and 2.5x the price. That takes it into the price area of a good MILC with a superzoom lens e.g, the A6700 with 18-135mm lens bundle is about the same price as the AX700, but has an APS-C sensor with 4x the area of a 1" sensor, weighs less and can record 10-bit 4:2:2 4k60p & 4k120p video.

I think you might be partly missing the point.

1) If Sony put a modern sensor in one of these things, it would have the same spec as a modern camera because it would BE a modern camera.  There are a shit-ton of smartphone sensors that have excellent specs that are in the right size range.

2) When compared to a modern mirrorless camera and a superzoom lens and a gimbal, it would be positively tiny by comparison.  

Also, camcorders often have completely internal mechanisms (zoom and focus) potentially making them much easier to weather-seal.  The benefits in terms of being less fragile in your bag etc might also be welcome.

Also, also, for amateur use, a camcorder looks FAAAAAAAAR less threatening in public than a MILC and large lens...  let alone when you add the gimbal.  Put an A6700 with superzoom on an RS3 or Crane and you may as well have activated a homing beacon for all private security, toxic law enforcement, Karen's, etc to come out of the woodwork and hassle you.  If you're holding something the shape of a camcorder, the fact that it's larger might even make you look less of a threat because buying a big camcorder might make you look a bit silly - the opposite look of a professional setup.

[ac6000cw]

5 minutes ago, kye said:

1) If Sony put a modern sensor in one of these things, it would have the same spec as a modern camera because it would BE a modern camera.  There are a shit-ton of smartphone sensors that have excellent specs that are in the right size range.

...which is why most non-enthusiast users would buy a decent phone and use it record video (the cost of an AX53 would pay for a pretty decent phone). The phone is very likely smaller than a camcorder and you definitely won't stand out in the crowd (even with a phone on a small gimbal).

Camcorders have their niche, but it's been squeezed from both ends for years - at the lower end, phones and compact cameras getting decent video, MILCs at the other end.

The AX700 has a modern 1" stacked BSI sensor with PDAF, but it's 116×89.5×196.5mm (W x H x L) and about 1 Kg. The small sensor AX53 is 73x80.5x161mm and about 600g. They're not especially small and light.

 

[SRV1981]

That may be it - camcorders have been replaced by phones 

[kye]

13 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

...which is why most non-enthusiast users would buy a decent phone and use it record video (the cost of an AX53 would pay for a pretty decent phone). The phone is very likely smaller than a camcorder and you definitely won't stand out in the crowd (even with a phone on a small gimbal).

Camcorders have their niche, but it's been squeezed from both ends for years - at the lower end, phones and compact cameras getting decent video, MILCs at the other end.

The AX700 has a modern 1" stacked BSI sensor with PDAF, but it's 116×89.5×196.5mm (W x H x L) and about 1 Kg. The small sensor AX53 is 73x80.5x161mm and about 600g. They're not especially small and light.

 

I'm confused...  you obviously don't want one, so why are you in this thread about camcorders arguing that no-one wants them?

I'm not interested in buying any cameras that exist right now, but I'm not sitting in all the threads arguing with people about them.

[Snowfun]

These threads do tend to descend into either-or types debates. I have a recent iPhone and, yes, I do use this for video. I also have a range of Blackmagics for a number of different purposes. But I still feel that the AX53 possibly has a place. The zoom. The internal gimbal. The compact size and ease of use. And possibly even the "retro" vibe and "invisible amateur tool" aspects. Coupled with the fact that if I drop it or it falls off a mount... it really doesn't matter. I am thinking of it as a GoPro/Insta alternative...  yes, a niche, perhaps, but there will be a lot of people out there for whom a decent camcorder would definitely fill their niche. As @kye said - get a lot of different shots with an easy to use camera and focus on the edit.

[Snowfun]

PS... order placed with cvp so we'll see how it works out!

[Snowfun]

Heavens above! I am enjoying this camera (AX53)  so much! The zoom is fabulous. The size and convenience coupled with the internal stabilisation and - I might be repeating myself - that zoom is a winning combination. Yes, the image isn’t up there with the best but one wouldn’t expect it to be. But as a tool to take out, have some fun and create some images to enjoy it’s fabulous. I’m glad I stumbled into this thread! 

[zlfan]

f900 with a hj 22x. your shoulder and back will enjoy the combo. lol. 

[John Matthews]

I took out my VX980 and film this in the morning. After, I threw it into Final Cut and added Film Convert to it. It was so easy. I let the camera figure the exposure on all the shots, but I had a ND32 on it at all times. All the shots were on a tripod. I probably should have uploaded in 4k, but oh well. It still looks good.

 

[mercer]

Have been messing around with a friend's XA50 and love the AF, cLog3 and above all... the form factor. The process becomes solely about composition and storytelling. Anyway here's a frame I grabbed after shooting with it for about 2 minutes...

[IronFilm]

On 3/21/2024 at 11:29 AM, SRV1981 said:

Been wondering about this for years! Why not bring the sensor of modern mirrorless to camcorder bodies. 

Because a mirrorless sensor is huge, which thus needs a HUGE lens to have a comparable zoom range as the typical camcorder has. 

The vaguely closest thing might be the smallest of the mirrorless sensor, a MFT, in a camcorder. 

And we've had that, the Panasonic DVX200. 

 

It's very compact! But yet still a lot bigger than what your typical family (grand)parents / tourist holidaymakers / etc would like to use. 

I'd say the modern camcorder of today is the fairly awesome Sony PXW-Z90V, it's a (semi)professional grade camcorder. And super compact.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1362802-REG/sony_pxw_z90v_pxw_z90_4k_hdr_xdcam.html 

Or if looking for a cheaper consumer grade camcorder, then the equivalent is the Sony FDR-AX700. 

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1362622-GREY/sony_fdr_ax700_b_fdr_ax700_4k_camcorder.html 

On 3/21/2024 at 11:29 PM, ac6000cw said:

Camcorders have their niche, but it's been squeezed from both ends for years - at the lower end, phones and compact cameras getting decent video, MILCs at the other end.

This.

Even though compact cameras (be they P&S or superzooms) have also been squished by smartphones and mirrorless, they still are quite an appealing alternative to a camcorder today. 

Back in the day old school camcorders made sense partially because the video from P&S cameras were so terrible (or  non-existent!). 

But today if I wanted better video than my cellphone, but wanted something smaller / less obvious than a mirrorless / DSLR, then why would I pick a camcorder?? 

I'd probably go with a camera such a Sony RX100 or Panasonic LX100 or Fujifilm X100 or Nikon Coolpix A

Then I get better video and a great stills camera too, and it's more compact / more incognito than a consumer grade camcorder is! 

If I need more zoom than one of these P&S cameras, I'd probably go for a Nikon Coolpix P900 / Panasonic FZ1000 / Sony RX10 / Nikon Coolpix A900 / Panasonic FZ80 / etc instead. They're super cheap on the secondhand market, and again, they're good stills cameras too! 

 

  

On 5/17/2024 at 3:43 PM, zlfan said:

f900 with a hj 22x. your shoulder and back will enjoy the combo. lol. 

I have good news for you! You can get a Sony HDW-F900R for less than a thousand bucks these days, far less than the hundreds of thousands of dollars they used to cost:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/226158157074