Smallest MFT camera with usable AF-S, decent DR, and dual-ISO?

[kye]

What are the options for a small MFT camera with usable AF-S, decent DR, and dual-ISO?

I shoot family and travel videos, which are fast-moving, completely uncontrolled situations, and in available light.  The cameras on my radar (and their associated issues) are:

GX85
Great all around camera and currently my main camera, but is weak in low-light and DR.
The low-light is ok with F2.8 lenses in well-lit places at night, but darker areas require primes (either expensive AF lenses or MF) and this quickly gets into the territory of lenses being a bit soft, DOF being too shallow for the compositions or making focusing difficult.
The DR is good enough when the sun isn't low in the sky, but when it is low then the lack of DR starts making me have to choose between faces or not having a digitally white sky.

P2K (OG BMPCC)
Low light has same issues as above.
DR is excellent and is enough to not have difficult shooting when the sun gets low.
The AF is the weak-point though.  It works, most of the time, but it's so slow that if there's any movement in the frame it can't go fast enough and gives up.  It's also so slow that I tend to miss half the moments involving people, so it's really a camera for filming stationary objects.  Plus the screen is ..... problematic.  It's black with polarised sunglasses, the little AF box is very difficult to see in many compositions, it's not bright enough for shooting in direct sun, and it doesn't articulate.

M4K (BMMSC BM Micro Studio Camera)
Dual ISO, so low light should be excellent.  DR should be really good.  All the relevant specs from BM point to this being the same sensor as the P4K so the image should be excellent.
AF is unknown, I'm waiting for tests.
The screen is external, but I could use it with my M2K (BMMCC) setups, which make it almost too large for consideration but maybe not quite.  It needs an SSD in addition to the M2K setup, so that's a whole other thing too.

GH5 / GH5ii / GH6 / G9ii / etc
Isn't there something smaller???

I'm not in any hurry for this, so perhaps it's a waiting game for Panasonic to release something smaller with their new sensor lineup?

[Matt Kieley]

What about the GH5s for dual iso low light?

[John Matthews]

It would seem a "small" camera doesn't exist without forgoing one of the items listed above. I agree with Matt. It would be the GH5S because IBIS isn't one of the things you listed.

[MrSMW]

The artist formerly known as Olympus enters the chat.

[kye]

7 hours ago, Matt Kieley said:

What about the GH5s for dual iso low light?

It's in that camp with the GH5 as being on the large side..  Realistically, I like the GX85 but just want some upgrades in DR and low-light, and in the absence of that existing I've worked out that I could have two setups, one for running around and one for slower situations where I don't have exactly the same requirements.  

So the GH5S is better than the GX85, but is larger and has worse DR than the P2K, so it's sort of wins and losses in comparison.  Considering I already own a GH5 and a P2K, it's a tough sell to buy a whole new camera for essentially no net benefit.

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

The artist formerly known as Olympus enters the chat.

I know very little about Olympus lineup and was secretly hoping that someone would go "there's always the Olympus XYZ - it's perfect!"....  what models might suit?

[MrSMW]

Well secretly…

I had a pair of EM5 ii’s for a year for my ‘pro’ video work and used for some ‘pro’ photo, looking at going even smaller and lighter than Fuji X APSC.

But in the end decided that using that P word, although the output was good and loved the size, weight and build, it was not quite ‘P’ enough for my needs.

When the OM-1 came out, I trialed that and once again, loved everything about it except for that final X amount of P’ness. (Do not read that out loud).

If however, I wanted a hybrid system and not a working P, I’d invest in a small system based around the OM-1. Probably with the 12-40mm f2.8 as my main lens and something longer if I went on safari or was interested in birds. The feathered type. I am very much interested in the featherless variety, but from within legal parameters. I do not wish to ever become a person of interest to the feds.

There is also the current OM-5 which is kind of like a smaller, lesser OM-1, but then may as well go for a dirt cheap used EM5 ii.

And then there is also the super stylish Pen F, but not sure what video capabilities it had…

[John Matthews]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I know very little about Olympus lineup and was secretly hoping that someone would go "there's always the Olympus XYZ - it's perfect!"....  what models might suit?

Not a single Olympus or OM System camera has dual ISO. None. Otherwise, the best Olympus camera for the size is the OM-5 or E-M5 iii.

[ac6000cw]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I know very little about Olympus lineup and was secretly hoping that someone would go "there's always the Olympus XYZ - it's perfect!"....  what models might suit?

To add to what John has said, currently the best small (ish) Olympus/OM System camera is the OM-5 - that's basically the guts of an E-M1 iii in a smaller/lighter body (about the size of the GX85 if you ignore the viewfinder hump). I don't own one, but do own the E-M1 iii, so based on that: 8-bit video only, FHD is soft, UHD is OK, C4K is very good but is 24p only, video C-AF is good (uses PDAF), IBIS is excellent.

 

The OM-1 is larger and rather more expensive, but smaller and lighter than the GH5. 10-bit 4:2:0 video is H265 Rec2020 in HLG and OMLog400 only, 8-bit video is H264 Rec709 in Flat, OMLog400 and any of the 'photo' profiles. 10-bit video modes are more detailed/higher resolution than equivalent 8-bit video modes - so for best quality go for 10-bit UHD/C4K in 24p/25p/30p (UHD/C4K 50p/60p is a bit softer, 10-bit FHD is rather better than 8-bit on E-M1 iii/OM-5).

So far I've been quite pleased with the usable dynamic range on the OM-1 in 10-bit HLG and OMLog400 - the new sensor and 10-bit processing path is definitively a significant upgrade from the older E-M1 iii.

[ac6000cw]

This is a good technical review (with some downloadable video samples) of the video side of the OM-1 - https://www.optyczne.pl/59.1-Inne_testy-OM_System_OM-1_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Wstęp.html

[Matt Kieley]

Does it have to be MFT? I just got the Panasonic S5 now that it's cheap enough (I got one used for $800 on Adorama). It has great color (10 bit 4:2:2) and DR, dual iso, excellent ibis, and smaller/lighter than the GH5. 

[Matt Kieley]

As for AF though, have you considered getting a lidar follow focus like the PDMovie Live Air 3?

[MrSMW]

7 hours ago, Matt Kieley said:

As for AF though, have you considered getting a lidar follow focus like the PDMovie Live Air 3?

With respect Matt, look at the use case.

The FF S5 is slightly smaller & lighter than the M4/3 GH5, but this is now rigging it out.

I suspect even the OM-1 is verging on the ‘plump’ side of the equation for Mr Kye, though personally for me it’s a good sweet spot of capability vs size, weight and handling.

And then there are the lenses…

S5 + Lidar, may as well go S5ii or for M4/3, the G9ii.

I can’t speak for Kye but I suspect this stuff is all getting on the larger size.

Other than the lack of dual ISO (I thought the OM-1 had that but maybe not then) a used EM5ii looks great value at only a couple of hundred on the used market.

How important is dual ISO @kye ?

[Thpriest]

If size is really important then the GX85 is great. It's the only camera I regret selling. It has the Cine D hack as well. Mine had no recording limit as well (bought from Hong Kong). Stick a small fast lens on and you are good to go.

[kye]

15 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Not a single Olympus or OM System camera has dual ISO. None. Otherwise, the best Olympus camera for the size is the OM-5 or E-M5 iii.

Well, that rules them out, which is unfortunate.

10 hours ago, Matt Kieley said:

Does it have to be MFT? I just got the Panasonic S5 now that it's cheap enough (I got one used for $800 on Adorama). It has great color (10 bit 4:2:2) and DR, dual iso, excellent ibis, and smaller/lighter than the GH5. 

Yeah, it has to be MFT.  Not only to share my existing lenses with the GX85, but also because the FF lenses are gargantuan in comparison and pretty sparse really.

10 hours ago, Matt Kieley said:

As for AF though, have you considered getting a lidar follow focus like the PDMovie Live Air 3?

Not only would it be too large (and "Smallest" is literally the first word in the title of this thread) but compatibility is another whole thing that just isn't a factor when sticking to a single lens system.

2 hours ago, Thpriest said:

If size is really important then the GX85 is great. It's the only camera I regret selling. It has the Cine D hack as well. Mine had no recording limit as well (bought from Hong Kong). Stick a small fast lens on and you are good to go.

Yeah, it's just the frustrations of when I hit its limitations, which when I'm travelling is a multiple-times-per-day sort of thing, and is often in a that-would-have-been-the-killer-shot-from-this-location-but-the-camera-couldn't-do-it sort of way.

I'm fully aware that I want a camera that can do a wide range of things very very well, but you can't fault someone for trying to improve things.  The thing I find fascinating is that even if I had a million-dollar budget for a setup, I still couldn't get what I want.

[Thpriest]

The other option is probably the Sony A7c mk2. Expensive but you have a lot of lens choice and it’s small.

[ac6000cw]

For anyone interested, here is a collection of 10-bit OMLog400 and HLG files (and a couple of stills) from my OM-1 - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1527WMHFXJmDvTGI74QINJQdstgJPhXyt?usp=sharing

All are FHD, using shutter priority ay 1/100s (auto-ISO and auto-aperture), auto WB (with the 'keep warm colors' option on) and C-AF set to a medium central area - so pretty much 'point and shoot' video. Lens was Oly 12-40 F2.8 pro. IBIS was sensor shift only, mostly on the maximum stability '+1' setting.

 

[ac6000cw]

18 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

For anyone interested, here is a collection of 10-bit OMLog400 and HLG files (and a couple of stills) from my OM-1 - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1527WMHFXJmDvTGI74QINJQdstgJPhXyt?usp=sharing

Just added a graded, 8-bit Rec709 version of some of the clips to the folder - 'OMLog400 test graded 8-bit Rec709.mov'

[BTM_Pix]

I think I droned out these exact same thoughts in the G9ii or some similar thread about MFT but I'll repeat them anyway 🙂 

In terms of a new camera, I honestly think its time to give up on Panasonic producing that specced up GX85 that everybody knows they could make if they wanted to.

In the absence of the "new" Olympus not doing anything to move the MFT story along either in terms of a compact then something like the A6700 is that camera now.

As well as being a larger sensor, it ticks every box of what is being asked for in terms of being dual native ISO, 10bit 4:2:2 internal, IBIS, class leading AF, LOG and a very good out of the box profile in S-Cinetone.

Very flexible mount in that it can even take your MFT manual focus lenses and has very good options like the Meike EF>E which will give you full AF of Canon lenses with the bonus of variable ND.

In terms of native lenses, there are a lot more E mount options now compared to when, say, the GX85 launched and it is seeing more releases every month unlike MFT which is slowing now.

The writing was on the wall when Sigma expanded their compact f1.4 prime lineup with the 56mm and didn't release an MFT version. 

Their two compact contemporary f2.8 zoom lenses are also not available in MFT of course.

Size wise there isn't anything in it from the front and the GX85 is actually a fraction bigger.

The A6700 is deeper but most of that is attributable to the chunky grip which, to me, is no bad thing as the GX85 is not chunky enough for me and the A6700's incorporates a dial too.

Price wise, it is a lot more expensive than the GX85 was on launch but so is everything else now and it is significantly cheaper than Panasonic's latest MFT camera, the G9ii.

The virtual shark jumping price of the G9ii makes me suspect that even if Panasonic did produce a new specced up GX85 that it would likely be at least as expensive as the A6700.

If you want to be closer spiritually to a combo of the GX85 and OG Pocket then, if you embrace the quirks, the Sigma Fp is well worth a consideration particularly as the used prices are dropping.

Personally, I'd add the EVF-11 as it is so much nicer to shoot with whilst at the same time you can remover it and leave it in your pocket if you need to go smaller. The tilt action of the EVF enables you to press the camera to your chest to offer a lot more stability when handholding.

That is important because you lose IBIS of course but you gain RAW and, as with the AF of the Fp, the internal 8 bit 4K is far more serviceable than people give it credit for and if you only need HD then its 12 bit internal. 

As with the EVF, the modularity means that if you want more capability in terms of bit depth then you can add it easily and discreetly.

The Fp has largely been forgotten/written off by an awful lot of people around the world but in Japan, in particular, there is some absolutely lovely imagery being uploaded to YouTube every week from it.

 

[ac6000cw]

56 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

In the absence of the "new" Olympus not doing anything to move the MFT story along either in terms of a compact then something like the A6700 is that camera now.

As well as being a larger sensor, it ticks every box of what is being asked for in terms of being dual native ISO, 10bit 4:2:2 internal, IBIS, class leading AF, LOG and a very good out of the box profile in S-Cinetone.

I've also thought about trying/buying an A6700 a few times for the same reasons... pity it doesn't have a higher-res viewfinder than 2.36M-dot (having a 5.76M-dot EVF in the OM-1 is really nice, as is the 1.62M-dot rear screen)

[kye]

It does seem to be a case of the missing Panasonic GX-series camera with modern sensor.

Revisiting the lineup, each with their smallest equivalent of a 24-70mm and a 24-240mm, here's the GX85, the A6700, the FX3, and the FP:

The A6700 seems to have good options in the 18-55 and 18-135mm variable aperture lenses, which aren't too big.

The FX3 would be the choice for Sony FF due to its high-ISO performance, and the tiny 28-60 really is tiny.  The 24-240 is a lot bigger than the 14-140 on the GX85, but it's pretty small for FF.  

Lastly, the FP seems to only have OIS options for 24-105 and 28-200, but they're not in the camerasize database, so pictured above is the 24-70/2.8 which is a tank.

Canon and Nikon are notably absent.  By the time the FX3 and FP are in the mix, we've deviated so far from the GX85 that we may as well be having an open house.

I guess the summary is that there isn't anything in MFT, but if I wanted to completely re-buy everything in my entire camera bag, there are options that are larger, incredibly more expensive, and better, but no-where near better enough to make me consider any of them for a single second.

The more I think about it, the better the AI options in post seem.