Nikon buys Red?

[Andrew Reid]

On 3/10/2024 at 1:09 AM, IronFilm said:

Gee, I hope you never discover what the sports bureaucracy in other sports get up to....

A weak person looks at a wrongdoing and thinks, ah too bad that's normal because look over there - the others are doing it too, whereas any person of any principals or character all would strongly condemn it.

You just find the large scale fraud 'merely disappointing' tho.

On 3/10/2024 at 1:09 AM, IronFilm said:

This proves the point about how totally different Lance Armstrong has been treated, as a scapegoat and a punching bag for the entire world's media (not just cycling media) to beat up upon. 

LOL!

Through no fault of his own you are going to suggest next??

On 3/10/2024 at 1:09 AM, IronFilm said:

(just to be clear btw, I'm no great fan of Lance Armstrong specifically! In fact his existence kinda annoyed me back then, as Armstrong prevented my favorite rider from winning any more TdF titles!! If not for Lance, then I think he'd have gone on to win even more titles than Lance did. Oh well)

(also just to be clear: yes, what he did is wrong. It's wrong to dope. But when you consider the broader context, I find it impossible to get as super hyped up furiously mad about it as so many others seem to be. It's merely disappointing, not some kind of greatest scandal since Watergate) 

For those he cheated out of career success it wasn't merely disappointing and if you think it is 'merely disappointing' to have disgusting ethics, cheat in sport, do drugs and try to cover it up, and profit in prize money, fame and sponsorship from a huge sporting fraud, then perhaps someone like you would have no qualms about joining them yourself or colluding with people like that given the chance as it's 'not that bad'.

Just like a certain camera boss is suspected of doing.

[Davide DB]

Quote

I was looking for market share data on cinema cameras but only found financial data.
Instead I would be curious to know what percentage Arri, Red, Canon, Sony, Pana share of film productions.
Some time ago I had seen a similar statistic restricted to Oscar films but I can't find it again.

 

On 4/13/2024 at 10:07 AM, ac6000cw said:

There's some statistics up to 2019 here - https://stephenfollows.com/digital-vs-film-on-hollywood-movies/

 

I saw Y.M. Cinema Magazine published updated statistics on cinema camera used at Sundance, Cannes and Oscar in 2023 and 2024. Interesting reading indeed:

https://ymcinema.com/2024/05/29/the-most-popular-cinema-cameras/

Basically Arri leads and Sony Venice is making its way.

But I really would like to know who was the hero who made a feature at Cannes with the mighty Panasonic SH1 🙂

[ac6000cw]

1 hour ago, Davide DB said:

But I really would like to know who was the hero who made a feature at Cannes with the mighty Panasonic SH1

...and the (analog SD video) 'Sony Video8' 🙂

It's quite an eclectic mixture of cameras in the bottom half of the 2021 list.

The Sony A7S is also relatively popular - I wonder if those are actually all the original, FHD, 10-year old version, or if it includes the later versions with 4k video?

[Davide DB]

4 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

...and the (analog SD video) 'Sony Video8' 🙂

It's quite an eclectic mixture of cameras in the bottom half of the 2021 list.

The Sony A7S is also relatively popular - I wonder if those are actually all the original, FHD, 10-year old version, or if it includes the later versions with 4k video?

Digital Bolex too.

 I would be really curious but I really don't know how to go into the data.

 

[Davide DB]

8 minutes ago, Davide DB said:

Digital Bolex too.

 I would be really curious but I really don't know how to go into the data.

 

I think the trick is that there are extra categories included as "directors fortnight" and others

[PannySVHS]

S1H has been the main camera for two french cinema films that I know of. That was before Fx3 fame.

This film was at Cannes in 2021 and was shot on the S1H. The actress is french movie star Adèle Exarchopoulo who starred together with Léa Seydoux in the Cannes Palm d'Or winner of 2014, which was shot on the og C300 btw. So here is some S1H Cannes motion picture glory.:)

 

[MrSMW]

25 minutes ago, PannySVHS said:

S1H has been the main camera for two french cinema films that I know of. That was before Fx3 fame.

I don’t think that for 99% of us, 99% of the time, we would know what anything has been shot on without being told.

And 99.9% could not care less.

The movie and TV industry has been built on big cameras, initially because they just had to be a certain size.

Today, they do not and are arguably the least important part of the entire puzzle.

And that image of big camera = professional camera filters all the way down to us lowly wedding hacks.

Well, the lower down the food chain, the less important a ‘Big Camera’ is, but it wasn’t until the last decade really that even at weddings, videographers did not have bigger shoulder mounted cameras.

In the movie industry though, unless you are a Greig Fraser and can ‘get away’ with using FX3’s, the issue is mainly how you would be perceived. OK, he wasn’t using $250 kit lenses but you know what I mean.

But it’s changing isn’t it and even larger studios using smaller more ‘regular’ cameras is becoming more common.

I think there is still a ton of snobbery though of cameras.

But back to the S1H specifically, mine is now on borrowed time…

Despite it having better image quality than my S5ii’s, I turned it from it’s static role of the last year or so, back into my primary run & gun unit for the first part of a 2 day job, yesterday.

This morning, first thing I did was put it back into the static role and reset one of my S5ii’s into the run & gun role.

Why? It’s just too slow compared with the S5ii and ultimate image quality aside, some things are more important and the top of that list is getting the shot.

If I was shooting a movie though, S1H hands down.

 

[PannySVHS]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

If I was shooting a movie though, S1H hands down.

Same for me.:) They must have shot the film ahead some time in 2020. That's quiet a demonstration of trust in a camera that has been released only a few months beforehand, to be used for a 2 million Euro production. The two directors have been nominated for the Camera D'Or with this film btw. Mission accomplished for the Lumix and the Dop I would say. Why Panasonic has not been taking advantage of such a testimony to their brandnew flagship camera, that question remains to be answered.

I just watched through a 30min horror flick shot 10bit internally with a FX3. It was graded by a skilled post production pro. I could still recognize the mush at high iso shots. S1H has pro internal processing and image quality for cinema productions on the other hand.

 

 

[PannySVHS]

On 6/26/2024 at 1:49 PM, Davide DB said:

I think the trick is that there are extra categories included as "directors fortnight" and others

But how come that it couldn't just be a simple google search, I asked myself, scratched my head and gave it a try. Digital bolex Cannes 2021, voilà.😊

 

 

[IronFilm]

On 4/13/2024 at 10:34 PM, Davide DB said:

Exactly what I was looking for.

It's a shame there's not a more recent stat.

Thank you

The decline of celluloid film and RED would have only been further extended since then. 

On 4/14/2024 at 11:30 AM, Danyyyel said:

I sincerely don't think their is much money in pure cinema cameras. Most of the money would come from the likes of the Fx3, fx6, Fx9 type of cameras, that would sell tens of thousands, rather than a few thousands at best. RED revenue was like 158 millions USD. That is peanuts from a 4.5/5 billions USD revenue company like Nikon. 

They are more trying using the brand name for the whole product line as a minimum. Their might be special version of the Cinema z8-z9 with RED raw etc, or the whole line uses it. Nikon knows that video is as important as photo in a photo camera today. This moves put them higher than even the likes of Canon in terms of branding. Tomorrow Nikon will be able to put "The Flash" or "Dr Strange" or "The Squid Game" on their marketing material.

Both companies could also share technologies. Tomorrow Red could launch a Komodo/Raptor with state of the art Ibis and autofocus, to compete with Sony Fx6 to Burano, Venise. Sony which has been their main competitor. And we might see some of those global shutter sensors either shared between the cameras on some models, or some specific model for Nikon still. 

Yes, if I owned and was running RED then I'd have three core cameras (plus maybe some minor variants of them, if cheap enough to do the R&D and handling the extra SKUs. Such as a "RED Komodo Pro" that's full featured vs a "RED Komodo Lite" that's a stripped down much cheaper version. Just like they're doing currently with the OG Komodo vs Komodo-X):

1. Doubling down on their Komodo series, as their (relatively speaking) "mass market camera" (to compete against FX3/FX6 or PYXIS/URSA or E2 or C70/C400). The focus would be on driving down costs (the "Komodo Lite" would ideally be sub $4K) and improving usability (especially for the "Komodo Pro", as pushing tech specs can wait until the next generation after that. As I'd embrace a tick-tock approach, you push the tech specs to the next level then the next cycle you refine it to perfection and push hard with usability/stability/reliability/ergonomics/etc). As this is where the bulk of their sales volume and profit would be. 
2. One model that's bleeding edge with the kitchen sink thrown at it. The purpose of this is not so much to sell tonnes of them and make lots of $$$$$, but rather as a real world testing platform and a product that's basically part of marketing RED's "brand image". Have RED be "the first" ever with 16K, or doing 1000fps 4K, or whatever other ridiculous spec they go with. If this product line can simply break even, that's a win for RED. As the main purpose for this product line is to both test out new tech that isn't yet ready for the Komodo range for a fair few more years yet (such as 1000fps 4K) and to marketing the RED as "the cutting edge brand" so that they maintain that mindshare they already have. Although this doesn't necessarily need to be an entirely separate line up of bodies, as it could reuse the same general camera body as what's in the next category...
3. One model that's half a stepdown from the bleeding edge (so reliability/usability is emphasized) and is unashamedly a camera that works well with a camera crew (such as any ARRI that's not an AMIRA, or VENICE, or Varicam, etc), basically a continuation of the RED Ranger series that already exists. (perhaps with couple of variants or so, one with specs pushed hard such as 8K VV or greater, another with a more sensible 4K to 6K ish sensor that's S35. Or in other words, as they're basically doing currently with the RED Ranger series) Again sales volume isn't going to be the greatest here, but it's part of RED's marketing, to get cameras into the hands of big budget productions (thus got to make a camera that appeal to them! And "a Komodo Lite" is not that). As being able to say "Blockbuster Hollywood film with these A Lister actors" is a big factor in RED's branding. And they need to hold onto that, as it will in turn sell lots of Komodos to the average joe. 

 

 

 

[IronFilm]

On 5/9/2024 at 8:02 PM, Eric Calabros said:

The price is revealed. $85 million.

 

Aaton (another camera company that just got sold this year, well... former camera company, but back in the day they were a major player just like ARRI was) had everything sell for merely a few tens of thousands of euros

  

On 5/24/2024 at 10:29 AM, Andrew Reid said:

For those he cheated out of career success it wasn't merely disappointing

Well as I asked before:

On 3/10/2024 at 2:09 PM, IronFilm said:

Name a Top 10 finisher (not just in the TdF but any Grand Tour, or heck, even any of the Classics) from that era who you're certain wasn't ever taking drugs?

I feel as a fan to be stressing and worrying over who was or wasn't is a futile exercise. Just enjoy the racing for what it is. (and got to admit, the racing during that era was a lot better!)

 

 

[IronFilm]

 

On 6/26/2024 at 11:35 PM, ac6000cw said:

The Sony A7S is also relatively popular - I wonder if those are actually all the original, FHD, 10-year old version, or if it includes the later versions with 4k video?

Very likely to be the later versions. Just like they don't distinguish between OG Komodo or Komodo-X, or OG VENICE vs VENICE 2

If only a couple of films were shot on ARRI, then I bet they also wouldn't bother to distinguish between Mini vs Mini LF

  

20 hours ago, MrSMW said:

I don’t think that for 99% of us, 99% of the time, we would know what anything has been shot on without being told.

And 99.9% could not care less.

The movie and TV industry has been built on big cameras, initially because they just had to be a certain size.

Today, they do not and are arguably the least important part of the entire puzzle.

And that image of big camera = professional camera filters all the way down to us lowly wedding hacks.

Well, the lower down the food chain, the less important a ‘Big Camera’ is, but it wasn’t until the last decade really that even at weddings, videographers did not have bigger shoulder mounted cameras.

To a certain extent I agree with you, however when you're shooting not just by yourself but with a whole crew then the camera size really does matter. 

Imagine if we could put the exact specs of a BURANO into an a7C body, many DoPs would still be choosing the BURANO for their productions. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Imagine if we could put the exact specs of a BURANO into an a7C body, many DoPs would still be choosing the BURANO for their productions.

I would imagine.

There is a certain quality to size and below a certain size (and weight even) it can become an issue.

It’s more a size thing for me these days over actual weight as in I’d always pick the smaller heavier set up over the larger lighter one.

Love the A7RV + Tamron 28-75 for this very reason.

Loved it right up to the point where mid shoot yesterday, I smashed the mount off it and bent the baseplate on it’s very first outing 🤪

Back to Spider Holster over Cotton Carrier because one of them is secure and the other ‘a bit shite’.

[BTM_Pix]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

 

On 5/23/2024 at 11:29 PM, Andrew Reid said:

For those he cheated out of career success it wasn't merely disappointing

Well as I asked before:

On 3/10/2024 at 1:09 AM, IronFilm said:

Name a Top 10 finisher (not just in the TdF but any Grand Tour, or heck, even any of the Classics) from that era who you're certain wasn't ever taking drugs?

I feel as a fan to be stressing and worrying over who was or wasn't is a futile exercise. Just enjoy the racing for what it is. (and got to admit, the racing during that era was a lot better!)

 

 

I thought I'd given you the answer at the time but obviously I didn't .

Trying to get "absolute certainty" is the cop out to hide behind the "everyone was at it" defence thrown up by Armstrong and his enablers when he was eventually forced to admit the truth.

No one can be "absolutely certain" of the actions of another person at every moment of their life.

Armstrong himself used the "I've never tested positive" benchmark until it was discovered he had but had colluded with the UCI to cover it up, thus muddying the waters for everyone else as well.

So, again, because of his shithousery, the benchmark then gets lowered to suspicion to justify it but even that doesn't make the "everyone else was at it" defence stand up to much scrutiny.

Even if we take out all those with subsequent failed tests in their whole career and/or implication in the known indicator stuff like Festina, Michele Ferrari, Bologna raid, Puerto/Fentes etc then are there any that match a top ten finish that you are challenging ?

Of course there are.

Asking for just one is pretty facile so here is one from each of Armstrong's seven Tour de France "winning" years.

1. 1999 - Daniele Nardello (7th)
2. 2000 - Daniele Nardello (10th)
3. 2001 - Andrei Kivilev (4th)
4. 2002 - Jose Azevedo (6th)
5. 2003 - Haimar Zubledia (5th)
6. 2004 - Jose Azevedo (5th)
7. 2005 - Cadel Evans (8th)

The 2006 edition, following Armstrong's first retirement from cycling, five of the top ten finishers hold similarly "clean" records.

So, no, they weren't all at it.

Anyway, the 2024 edition starts today so lets enjoy the spectacle and hope the little fella gets that 35th stage win.

[Davide DB]

On 6/29/2024 at 6:52 AM, IronFilm said:

Imagine if we could put the exact specs of a BURANO into an a7C body, many DoPs would still be choosing the BURANO for their productions. 

 

And from what little I've been able to see and hear, at least here in Europe, DoPs who work exclusively in film are some of the most reactionary and traditionalist people out there.
That is why these over-excitements about GH7's ARRI-certified LUT make me smile a lot. It is something that will not touch real film productions at all. Maybe I expect some real use for high end advertising and TV productions and of course all the wannabes but real film environment is pretty much "watertight"
In that sense, even Red acquisition supposed motivation to put a foot in the movie business is a gamble

[PannySVHS]

6 hours ago, Davide DB said:

 

And from what little I've been able to see and hear, at least here in Europe, DoPs who work exclusively in film are some of the most reactionary and traditionalist people out there.
That is why these over-excitements about GH7's ARRI-certified LUT make me smile a lot. It is something that will not touch real film productions at all. Maybe I expect some real use for high end advertising and TV productions and of course all the wannabes but real film environment is pretty much "watertight"
In that sense, even Red acquisition supposed motivation to put a foot in the movie business is a gamble

True.

I would like Panasonic to resurrect the brand name of Varicam and call their flagship DSLM something like Varicam VH1, with internal electronic vari ND, SDI, Dual Gain sensor, a cinema camera the size of a S1H. It could also be used to take photographs.:) Signal processing as pure and raw as of the og S1H. The DOP of the S1H Cannes film used a Sony Venice on his current Cannes 2024 entry. S1H was Bcam. So a traditionalist to the craft, but an open minded one to the tech and art of cinematography.🙂

[IronFilm]

On 6/29/2024 at 8:30 PM, MrSMW said:

I would imagine.

There is a certain quality to size and below a certain size (and weight even) it can become an issue.

It's not about quality, because I'm saying in some imaginary hypothetical that an a7C and a BURANO body could give an identical image.

But rather it's about ergonomics/workflow, the bigger body just is much better at serving that. SDI vs HDMI. Multiple independent outputs vs none. TC vs no TC. And more and more reasons like that. 

On 6/29/2024 at 11:28 PM, BTM_Pix said:

Asking for just one is pretty facile so here is one from each of Armstrong's seven Tour de France "winning" years.

1. 1999 - Daniele Nardello (7th)
2. 2000 - Daniele Nardello (10th)
3. 2001 - Andrei Kivilev (4th)
4. 2002 - Jose Azevedo (6th)
5. 2003 - Haimar Zubledia (5th)
6. 2004 - Jose Azevedo (5th)
7. 2005 - Cadel Evans (8th)

I'm sorry but it's peak delusional to think that's a list of perfectly clean riders

Take for instance the very first person on that list, the Italian rider Nardello who is infamous for the abuse he hurled at Simeoni, who was the only rider at that particular point in time who was daring to speak out about doping by testifying in court. Nardello said this about Simeoni: "You're a disgrace to cycling. People like you shouldn't be in the Tour", and said that Simeoni deserved the public berating & more that he got from Lance Armstrong etc as well.  (as Armstrong did more than just publicly berate Simeoni! On the 18th stage of the 2004 TdF then Simeoni was in a breakaway that posed zero threat whatsoever to Lance Armstrong's GC positioning. But could Lance Armstrong tolerate Simeoni having even a small chance at racing glory on his watch? Nope!)

Nah, with an attitude like that he's never going on any short list of "clean riders". 

On 6/29/2024 at 11:28 PM, BTM_Pix said:

Anyway, the 2024 edition starts today so lets enjoy the spectacle and hope the little fella gets that 35th stage win.

Agreed, have been keenly watching it! And fingers crossed for Cavendish he squeaks out a win or two.

(and if in another decade or two the news leaks out that he was doping too, then I won't be surprised, but will simply accept it as a fact of life, it's the reality of pro sport)

[IronFilm]

29 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Take for instance the very first person on that list, the Italian rider Nardello who is infamous for the abuse he hurled at Simeoni, who was the only rider at that particular point in time who was daring to speak out about doping by testifying in court. Nardello said this about Simeoni: "You're a disgrace to cycling. People like you shouldn't be in the Tour", and said that Simeoni deserved the public berating & more that he got from Lance Armstrong etc as well.  (as Armstrong did more than just publicly berate Simeoni! On the 18th stage of the 2004 TdF then Simeoni was in a breakaway that posed zero threat whatsoever to Lance Armstrong's GC positioning. But could Lance Armstrong tolerate Simeoni having even a small chance at racing glory on his watch? Nope!)

Ah, found a video clip of what happened in the 18th stage of the 2004 Tour de France:

Lance Armstrong chased down the breakaway, which means of course T-Mobile had to chase it down too. Killing any chances whatsoever that the breakaway could win the stage that day 

There was no need whatsoever for Armstrong to chase down the Simeoni breakaway (in fact it's a very good thing for the GC leader to have a non-threatening breakaway up the road on a stage like that), Armstrong purely did it out of a mean vindictive streak because of Simeoni's anti doping stance. And Nardello vocally supported that in public. 

[BTM_Pix]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I'm sorry but it's peak delusional to think that's a list of perfectly clean riders

What's delusional is using a single verbal incident in a race situation as some sort of proof that a rider is doping when he has never been implicated by involvement in any other indicator nor anecdotally by his accuser or any other rider, let alone failed a test!

The incident was related to a feud between Simeoni and Lance Armstrong (quelle surprise) about Simeoni exposing Armstrong's own association with Dr Ferrari of whom Simeoni was also a client.

Simeoni was a prosecution witness against Ferrari and this racing incident was a clear way in which to intimidate him against testifying. 

The other riders involved in giving Simeoni abuse when he was sucked back into the peloton were reacting to the racing incident which was against the accepted conventions of road behaviour within the race and in support of the yellow jersey (Armstrong in this case) who is de facto leader of the behavioural code within the peloton.

So it had nothing to do with doping per se as Armstrong was still essentially "clean" in 2004 and everything to do with the etiquette of the racing.

If it had been about doping then surely Simeoni being a prosecution witness would have implicated Nardello?

Which, of course, neither he nor anybody else ever did.

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Agreed, have been keenly watching it! And fingers crossed for Cavendish he squeaks out a win or two.

He didn't look like he was going to last the first two hours at one point on Saturday.

Today is the first flat stage but its very debatable whether he can challenge for the stage.

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

(and if in another decade or two the news leaks out that he was doping too, then I won't be surprised, but will simply accept it as a fact of life, it's the reality of pro sport)

Well, this is where my hypocrisy will catch up with me if he is !

I covered quite a lot of those stage wins (and more than a few of this last 300m mishaps) and I have to say that they were amongst the most exhilarating things that I've shot so I have a massive soft spot for him.

Logic would say he has done it clean because he has managed - unlike Wiggins and Froome - to not be implicated even in the shady whiff around the UK Cycling/SKY setup that he was a part of or anything else outside of that.

If he has though then, to me, I'll view him in the same category as the rest of the cheats that have gone before and it will be meaningless.

At least if he was then he managed to not be an absolute psychopathic cunt with it like Armstrong was.

Well, except to the press, where I was in a few packs where we were on the receiving end of his, erm, "spikiness" when things weren't going his way.

And sometimes even when they were.

[Snowfun]

On 6/29/2024 at 12:28 PM, BTM_Pix said:

the little fella gets that 35th stage win.

Well, he did… but I’m sure I saw him pop a Werther’s Original half way round…