Nikon buys Red?

[IronFilm]

Stoked about this! Biggest cycling news of the year it will be. 

As Mark Cavendish set a record that likely will remain for my entire lifetime. 

[BTM_Pix]

15 hours ago, Snowfun said:

Well, he did… but I’m sure I saw him pop a Werther’s Original half way round

Then the little cheating fat bastard is dead to me now 🙂

I was watching it and at about 750m thinking "nah he's going to have to try another day" and then he just crowd surfs his way to the front.

What a moment.

He has another shot today but honestly I just hope he can hang on to the end of the race as the last stage is an individual time trial from Monaco to Nice and he deserves what will effectively be a 33km lap of honour.

I might not be able to resist the urge to head down there to see it in person.

[PannySVHS]

I would like to include Jan Ullrich in this discussion. He was one hell of a rider. German media always bullied him, as they were never satisfied when he didn´t finish first and whenever someone else was taking the crown. They had their share when it comes to doping, they that is the media, press, adverisement and sponsors. They are guilty of being unappreciative and meanspirited about second places, about loosing a race without a place on the winners´ podium. None of these jerks ever won anything themselves but throwing dirt at people who they exploited for their ratings, exposure and advertisment. Cycling was huge in Germany in the Ullrich era. So many profitizing from Ullrich and so many never having to stand up for their deeds, and their participaiton in the doping system.

[IronFilm]

21 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I would like to include Jan Ullrich in this discussion. He was one hell of a rider. German media always bullied him, as they were never satisfied when he didn´t finish first and whenever someone else was taking the crown.

He was my favorite cycling superstar hero back when I was a kid! 

And yeah, he got so many second places at the Tour de France!!! (FIVE of them!!) 

But he least he still got a couple of Grand Tour wins of his own (the Tour de France itself, and the Vuelta).

[PannySVHS]

He was an Olympics champion too if I remember correctly (irrc). People loved the steam engine like powerhouse, the beast from the east, Jan "Ulle" Ullrich. He was like a folk hero. It was the not so common people who exploited the man of the common people. Big middle finger to Telekom and German TV for their hideous conduct.

[Danyyyel]

Nikon GM saying, they intend to leverage some of RED tech into their cameras. My guess would be at least REDcode Raw and their LOG workflow. I was looking at a 12bit Nraw vs 14 bit NEF raw (Photo) and their was quite a difference in terms of detail in the shadows that would make it great a 14 bit REDraw codec in camera. 

https://nikonrumors.com/2024/07/22/nikon-plans-to-incorporate-reds-video-tech-in-its-cameras-in-order-to-expand-market-share.aspx/#more-196596

[TomTheDP]

On 7/23/2024 at 1:47 PM, Danyyyel said:

Nikon GM saying, they intend to leverage some of RED tech into their cameras. My guess would be at least REDcode Raw and their LOG workflow. I was looking at a 12bit Nraw vs 14 bit NEF raw (Photo) and their was quite a difference in terms of detail in the shadows that would make it great a 14 bit REDraw codec in camera. 

https://nikonrumors.com/2024/07/22/nikon-plans-to-incorporate-reds-video-tech-in-its-cameras-in-order-to-expand-market-share.aspx/#more-196596

14bit just gives a lot more. The Z8 really has impressive dynamic range though similar to the RED raptor. Rate it at 3200 or 1600 ISO and you have Alexa like highlight latitude. Needs to be treated right in post. That is the thing with RED and ARRI is that they look pretty damn stellar straight out of camera with the lut applied. 

[Davide DB]

I know you were dying to know 😄

https://ymcinema.com/2024/11/28/nikon-and-red-the-z-mount-cinema-revolution-coming-in-2025/

 

[zlfan]

1 hour ago, Davide DB said:

I know you were dying to know 😄

https://ymcinema.com/2024/11/28/nikon-and-red-the-z-mount-cinema-revolution-coming-in-2025/

 

how can arri alexa survive this?

[zlfan]

nikon used to lag behind canon in the sensor design and making. not any more. 

the shortest flange distance, plus, the best sensor design, and the codec. nikon seems will out edge canon, arri, sony. 

[Andrew Reid]

Very optimistic article given the current reality of the cinema camera market (clue... It's shit)

Also you can't democratise what's already been democratised.

And in terms of the high-end, it's ARRI, ARRI and ARRI.

If Nikon want to expand the market for RED, first thing they should do is dump N-RAW in the mirrorless camera lineup and replace with REDcode.

They should then decide whether they want to go after Cinema EOS market or ARRI market, it's very unlikely they'll be able to do both!

[JulioD]

I don’t see it.  

Testing now for a Q4 2025 announcement? That’s a year from now.  That feels a long way away.

RED are dead   The only thing they had of value was their IP. Nikon had them over a barrel and bought them for a steal!

85 million? Doesn’t that tell us that RED haven’t been doing good business at all? It costs 10-20 million to develop a sensor.  So that’s all that RED were worth even with their IP?

 

 

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, Davide DB said:

I know you were dying to know 😄

https://ymcinema.com/2024/11/28/nikon-and-red-the-z-mount-cinema-revolution-coming-in-2025/

"The highly anticipated RED Digital Cinema camera featuring Nikon’s Z-mount is slated for release in Q4 of 2025. "

Still nearly a whole year away.

7 hours ago, zlfan said:

how can arri alexa survive this?

nah, it's not a major threat to ARRI, as the article says:

"Hence, the Z-mount RED camera takes this collaboration to the next level, signaling Nikon’s ambitions to challenge industry leaders like Canon and Sony."

I suspect it's the Canon C70 / C80 / C400 and Sony FX6 / FX9 it will be competing for , although perhaps leaning more into RED's cinema pedigree and weaker in the ENG/OMB/videographer capabilities. Although hopefully the next generation from RED does addresses this, give us a luxury of codecs beyond just redcode (ProRes and H.265, and have the option to burn in LUTs. Komodo has already taken a step in that direction), give us internal NDs, give us XLR inputs (or at least mini XLR), etc

RED/Nikon can simply get themselves into position as the #2 player for the sub $10K market (at the moment are they even #3?) then after that is achieved they could look at pushing to establish themselves as the #2 choice also for the $25K+ market. (as at the moment it's ARRI and then Sony) 

[Chrille]

6 hours ago, Andrew Reid said:

And in terms of the high-end, it's ARRI, ARRI and ARRI.

True for features though a lot of commercials work  with Sony Venice.

[Davide DB]

4 hours ago, IronFilm said:

I suspect it's the Canon C70 / C80 / C400 and Sony FX6 / FX9 it will be competing for , although perhaps leaning more into RED's cinema pedigree and weaker in the ENG/OMB/videographer capabilities. Although hopefully the next generation from RED does addresses this, give us a luxury of codecs beyond just redcode (ProRes and H.265, and have the option to burn in LUTs. Komodo has already taken a step in that direction), give us internal NDs, give us XLR inputs (or at least mini XLR), etc

RED/Nikon can simply get themselves into position as the #2 player for the sub $10K market (at the moment are they even #3?) then after that is achieved they could look at pushing to establish themselves as the #2 choice also for the $25K+ market. (as at the moment it's ARRI and then Sony) 

100% agree. Lower cinema segment. Here in Europe, upper cinema segment is Arri Arri Arri and a pinch of Sony Venice.

But my Question is: once you have this amazing Z-mount Red cinema camera, which Nikon lens will you use? I mean cinema lens. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not talking about Z-mount third-party suppliers but Nikon native cinema lenses. It is true that in theory Nikon has a very long tradition in lenses but basically they are all photographic lenses. Lately they seem to be creating a cinema line but Canon is light years ahead.
One market segment where the Reds are still the undisputed queens is wildlife documentaries on land and underwater. 90% of BBC and high end documentary operators use Red for 8K and high framerates. Canon CN zooms are the bread and butter of these productions. Hard to imagine convincing everyone to switch to Nikon. More adapter rings? Hummm

 

[Davide DB]

This small review of the 24-135mm Nikkor "cine" lens perhaps nicely sums up Nikon's somewhat awkward steps in this segment.

https://thecinelens.com/2024/10/31/nikon-announces-new-24-135mm-f-4-cine-lens/

 

[MrSMW]

I am very intrigued to try the RED Film Bias LUT for N-Log, - it looks nice from the examples I have seen.

I was hoping to have tried it by now, but had shit weather and other obstacles in the way including a ton of work that needs finishing.

But I have a full day set aside in about 2 weeks for pure capture purposes.

Then I'm going to put it up against my conversion LUT of choice for my S5ii and see which I like best.

It will at least help with any future decision I need to make within the next 4 months whether to flip to Nikon for all my video needs for 2024 or continue with a hybrid Lumix/Nikon mix.

I'd rather just shoot one brand though and based on recent history and current scenarios, I think I'd want to be backing Nikon over Panasonic... Zf, Z6iii, Z8 vs solo effort S5ii.

[Andrew Reid]

13 hours ago, JulioD said:

I don’t see it.  

Testing now for a Q4 2025 announcement? That’s a year from now.  That feels a long way away.

RED are dead   The only thing they had of value was their IP. Nikon had them over a barrel and bought them for a steal!

85 million? Doesn’t that tell us that RED haven’t been doing good business at all? It costs 10-20 million to develop a sensor.  So that’s all that RED were worth even with their IP?

I agree with you on this... Field testing for Q4 announcement is too early. Whatever they might be doing is at the lab prototype stage and nowhere near finished.

RED is a useful brand for Nikon and they have two choices...

Scrap RED's own R&D completely and bring it all over to Japan, in-house Z-mount cinema cameras... Based entirely off the back of Nikon's existing Z9 tech platform. Rip up the RF mount contract, the current sensor supply, the current supply chain all probably is obsolete compared to what Nikon is already capable of.

Second choice... They take a business as normal approach with a bit of technology transfer between the two separate teams... I can't see that happening. Far better would be to keep RED around merely as a brand for Nikon's cinema products, and of course the IP in relation to RAW recording. Which is probably worth 85 mil by itself!

[IronFilm]

21 hours ago, Chrille said:

True for features though a lot of commercials work  with Sony Venice.

"And in terms of the high-end, it's ARRI, ARRI and VENICE" 😝

(or maybe I should have said: "And in terms of the high-end, it's ARRI, ARRI, ARRI, ARRI, and VENICE" Or even "And in terms of the high-end, it's ARRI, ARRI, ARRI, ARRI, VENICE, ARRI, ARRI, ARRI, RED, ARRI, ARRI, and VENICE")

21 hours ago, Davide DB said:

But my Question is: once you have this amazing Z-mount Red cinema camera, which Nikon lens will you use? I mean cinema lens. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not talking about Z-mount third-party suppliers but Nikon native cinema lenses. It is true that in theory Nikon has a very long tradition in lenses but basically they are all photographic lenses.

Many decades ago Nikon made cinema lenses. 

NikonRumors.com already mentions there is a Z Mount cine lens in development. 

Plus I expect RED/Nikon if they have any common sense whatsoever will offer it with a locking Z Mount, so users can go with PL mount, as if it is "native PL mount". 

Every Sony E Mount cine lenses could be used on a Z Mount Cine camera with an adapter. 

And I expet once the RED/Nikon Z Mount camera is announced then 3rd Party Manufactures will be announcing quickly more products compatible with it, for instance the Fujinon MK zooms for Z Mount too.  (a good chunk of Avatar got shot on it)

  

21 hours ago, Davide DB said:

One market segment where the Reds are still the undisputed queens is wildlife documentaries on land and underwater. 90% of BBC and high end documentary operators use Red for 8K and high framerates.

A market that they really need to announce the next camera for this will have built in NDs, and could benefit from Nikon's AF tech.

21 hours ago, Davide DB said:

Canon CN zooms are the bread and butter of these productions. Hard to imagine convincing everyone to switch to Nikon. More adapter rings? Hummm

No problem at all if this camera has a locking Z Mount

[eatstoomuchjam]

6 hours ago, IronFilm said:

And I expet once the RED/Nikon Z Mount camera is announced then 3rd Party Manufactures will be announcing quickly more products compatible with it, for instance the Fujinon MK zooms for Z Mount too.  (a good chunk of Avatar got shot on it)

Guess it was 90% of Avatar 2, from what I googled!  Won't my collaborators be thrilled to learn that I'm shooting their films with the Avatar 2 lens!  😅

Also, no need to wait for a Fujinon MK for Z Mount if there's a decent APS-C that has it - there's already a Z mount to Sony E adapter and E mount MK. That or just wait for somebody like Duclos or MTF services to make an adapter kit.  Swapping the mount is pretty straightforward (and used copies aren't too expensive)