Danyyyel Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 Just now, mercer said: I'm not sure internal raw video will have the impact that people think it will have. Time and time again you see people on this forum or on YouTube say... I've been shooting IPB instead of all-i because of the data rates. I thought the same, until I tested a bit the 4.1 K (pixel skipping) of my z9 as I calculated that it was about 350 mb/s bitrate (I dont know if it is capital M or small m), compared to about 200 mb/s the h.265. Another surprise was that it played better using Resolve than H.265. For me this has been my defacto standard for higher end work. I must do some more test about DR etc. to know what loss compared to 8k. Which I think is just too much. If I could get a 4k or 6k raw camera, I would be super happy or with the likes of Redraw higher compression. ghostwind and mercer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac6000cw Posted March 17 Share Posted March 17 36 minutes ago, Danyyyel said: I calculated that it was about 350 mb/s bitrate (I dont know if it is capital M or small m) Capital M = 'mega' = x1000000 Lowercase m = 'milli' = /1000 So megabits per second = Mb/s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulioD Posted March 17 Author Share Posted March 17 6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said: Anybody who has had anything more than a superficial interaction with Atomos will be thrilled to never do any business with them again. With or without Young, they are are garbage company. They have a corrosive culture that comes from him as a founder. Having him return after doing some token penalty time is farcical. What has changed since he left? Nothing. Meanwhile their stock is still not trading because of serious (criminal?) accounting issues where they lied about sales volumes. The whistleblower was fired for raising it and that case is still going. They are awful eatstoomuchjam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 9 hours ago, Danyyyel said: I thought the same, until I tested a bit the 4.1 K (pixel skipping) of my z9 as I calculated that it was about 350 mb/s bitrate (I dont know if it is capital M or small m), compared to about 200 mb/s the h.265. Another surprise was that it played better using Resolve than H.265. For me this has been my defacto standard for higher end work. Assuming you're talking about h264 vs h265, the h265 is about the same quality as h264 but h265 only requires half the bitrate to accomplish that. The price is that h265 requires MUCH more processing power to encode and decode. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 I'm quite interested in raw myself, though have never used it. Not so much (or at all actually) for pure video capture and production, but rather for video capture with a view to using the material for both video production and extracting stills as if 'from a movie', ie, 100% matching other than perhaps crop. On that basis, having tested 4k, it's not quite good enough for stills, at least not at the level I would be happy with, so 6k for me is a minimum plus shot at 50/60p because I do have a requirement for up to 50% slow mo at certain times. Yes I know I can do the latter in post but it isn't quite the same. Instead, I am looking for a capture that is not too hard drive heavy so something up to about 600mbs maybe (but none of this 2000mbs stuff which is waaaaay too high for me) which I can then edit into a finished production, real time and slow mo and then extract 500+ 'movie' stills from it. And it HAS to be internal for me, or at least to a slim external SSD. Lumix currently does not offer me this and as someone who is currently shooting video with L Mount, but stills with Nikon Z plus adapted E Mount glass, there are several directions I could go in but Nikon for me has the current best options and probably future potential. Building up a modest set of E Mount glass means I can use this on a totally Nikon or Sony body system, but equally, I am not so heavily invested that if within L Mount, something 'internal raw 6k 50p not too heavy' comes out in the future, I could go fully back to using L for everything. I'd like to at least explore raw though as the biggest benefit to me other than having identical matching video and stills, would be because I can then down-size my kit. Down-size as not necessarily in terms of size of individual bodies and lenses, but number of units. Currently using 4 but could equally use 3 but there is a very good option for 2...except *cough*, it's Canon. I am currently most interested however with my more modest budget, in what the Nikon Z6iii is going to be, but I suspect it probably won't be 6 or 8k 50p full frame internal and if not, a single used Z9 still remains and option for 2025 with it's 8k 50p raw internal ability. ghostwind 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac6000cw Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 4 hours ago, kye said: Assuming you're talking about h264 vs h265, the h265 is about the same quality as h264 but h265 only requires half the bitrate to accomplish that. The price is that h265 requires MUCH more processing power to encode and decode. I think he was talking about N-RAW versus h265. The bitrates for N-RAW are here - https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z9/en/06_video_recording_02.html#id226OJ0Y0V5Z - 4.1k at 24 p is 350 Mb/s in Normal quality mode. Danyyyel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 1 hour ago, ac6000cw said: I think he was talking about N-RAW versus h265. The bitrates for N-RAW are here - https://onlinemanual.nikonimglib.com/z9/en/06_video_recording_02.html#id226OJ0Y0V5Z - 4.1k at 24 p is 350 Mb/s in Normal quality mode. Ah, ok. I wonder what compression N-RAW is using. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac6000cw Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 20 minutes ago, kye said: Ah, ok. I wonder what compression N-RAW is using. It's TicoRAW from IntoPIX - see https://www.dpreview.com/news/9624409613/nikon-is-licensing-intopix-s-ticoraw-technology-for-its-z9-camera-system and https://www.intopix.com/tico-raw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 [[FX] 8256×4644; 50p] Approx. 4810 Mbps Crikey, - I didn't realise it was that high. A bit more than the 200 I am used to. Might need to re-evaluate my raw ideas... 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 4 hours ago, ac6000cw said: It's TicoRAW from IntoPIX - see https://www.dpreview.com/news/9624409613/nikon-is-licensing-intopix-s-ticoraw-technology-for-its-z9-camera-system and https://www.intopix.com/tico-raw No, TicoRAW is the brand name for an implementation of a particular compression algorithm. People don't really know this, and the manufacturers sure don't want to tell people, but there are only a few compression algorithms in use for video. Some manufacturers will tweak the algorithm to get better performance in some metrics, but it's still the same algorithm and still subject to the same limitations etc. This is from the page on the Discrete cosine transform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_cosine_transform Quote The DCT is the most widely used transformation technique in signal processing,[29] and by far the most widely used linear transform in data compression.[30] Uncompressed digital media as well as lossless compression have high memory and bandwidth requirements, which is significantly reduced by the DCT lossy compression technique,[7][8] capable of achieving data compression ratios from 8:1 to 14:1 for near-studio-quality,[7] up to 100:1 for acceptable-quality content.[8] DCT compression standards are used in digital media technologies, such as digital images, digital photos,[31][32] digital video,[18][33] streaming media,[34] digital television, streaming television, video on demand (VOD),[8] digital cinema,[22] high-definition video (HD video), and high-definition television (HDTV).[7][35] Quote H.261 - 1988 - First of a family of video coding standards. Used primarily in older video conferencing and video telephone products. Motion JPEG - 1992 - QuickTime, video editing, non-linear editing, digital cameras MPEG-1 Video - 1993 - Digital video distribution on CD or Internet video MPEG-2 Video (H.262) - 1995 - Storage and handling of digital images in broadcast applications, digital television, HDTV, cable, satellite, high-speed Internet, DVD video distribution DV - 1995 - Camcorders, digital cassettes H.263 (MPEG-4 Part 2) - 1996 - Video telephony over public switched telephone network (PSTN), H.320, Integrated Services Digital Network (ISDN)[61][62] Advanced Video Coding(AVC, H.264, MPEG-4) - 2003 - Popular HD video recording, compression and distribution format, Internet video, YouTube, Blu-ray Discs, HDTVbroadcasts, web browsers, streaming television, mobile devices, consumer devices, Netflix,[42] video telephony, FaceTime[41] Theora - 2004 - Internet video, web browsers VC-1 - 2006 - Windows media, Blu-ray Discs Apple ProRes - 2007 - Professional video production.[50] VP9 - 2010 - A video codec developed by Google used in the WebM container format with HTML5. High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC, H.265) - 2013 - Successor to the H.264 standard, having substantially improved compression capability Daala - 2013 - Research video format by Xiph.org AV1 - 2018 - An open source format based on VP10 (VP9's internal successor), Daala and Thor; used by content providers such as YouTube[64][65] and Netflix.[66][67] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted March 18 Administrators Share Posted March 18 5 hours ago, MrSMW said: [[FX] 8256×4644; 50p] Approx. 4810 Mbps Crikey, - I didn't realise it was that high. A bit more than the 200 I am used to. Might need to re-evaluate my raw ideas... 🤔 Yeah, and no real image quality advantage over 500Mbit H.265 8K on the Sony A1 Cinema DNG on the other hand 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrSMW Posted March 18 Share Posted March 18 1 minute ago, Andrew Reid said: Yeah, and no real image quality advantage over 500Mbit H.265 8K on the Sony A1 Cinema DNG on the other hand 🙂 I have E Mount lenses and that is as a deliberate business decision on my part in that Sony bodies could be a future option for me. Big fan of the A7RV for stills/hybrid and FX3 for video… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac6000cw Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 20 hours ago, kye said: No, TicoRAW is the brand name for an implementation of a particular compression algorithm. Yes, their raw image sensor data compression system. Do you know what intoPIX actually use inside the TicoRAW implementation? 20 hours ago, kye said: People don't really know this, and the manufacturers sure don't want to tell people, but there are only a few compression algorithms in use for video. Some manufacturers will tweak the algorithm to get better performance in some metrics, but it's still the same algorithm and still subject to the same limitations etc. This is from the page on the Discrete cosine transform: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrete_cosine_transform Discrete cosine transform (DCT) isn't a compression algorithm, it's just a mathematical transform (of a block of pixels into spatial frequency coefficients) that's particularly useful for 'natural image' compression systems. It doesn't compress the data (in fact it increases it, as the output coefficients are usually higher bit depth to maintain precision), just transforms it into a different representation. That makes it much easier to discard/downgrade the coefficient data afterwards while minimising the impact on image quality - how clever you are at doing that (and the subsequent lossless data compression) is basically what determines the compression efficiency (data reduction versus perceived quality) of the image compressor. DCT is far from being the only game in town though - there are other front-end transforms in use as part of image compression systems. But I agree it's very popular (for very good reasons) in natural image compressors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danyyyel Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 On 3/18/2024 at 1:15 PM, kye said: Ah, ok. I wonder what compression N-RAW is using. Yes I was talking about Nikon 4.1k Nraw vs H256 codec. Saying it was quite a nice compromise. kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 2 hours ago, ac6000cw said: Yes, their raw image sensor data compression system. Do you know what intoPIX actually use inside the TicoRAW implementation? That's what I was asking. 2 hours ago, ac6000cw said: Discrete cosine transform (DCT) isn't a compression algorithm, it's just a mathematical transform (of a block of pixels into spatial frequency coefficients) that's particularly useful for 'natural image' compression systems. It doesn't compress the data (in fact it increases it, as the output coefficients are usually higher bit depth to maintain precision), just transforms it into a different representation. That makes it much easier to discard/downgrade the coefficient data afterwards while minimising the impact on image quality - how clever you are at doing that (and the subsequent lossless data compression) is basically what determines the compression efficiency (data reduction versus perceived quality) of the image compressor. DCT is far from being the only game in town though - there are other front-end transforms in use as part of image compression systems. But I agree it's very popular (for very good reasons) in natural image compressors. My point was that the math that sits underneath the many branded names is mostly the same. TicoRAW will be just another branded version of something that someone else wrote. My original post was wondering what it was... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted March 19 Administrators Share Posted March 19 Jarred Land speaks out about the Nikon buyout here: The question is.... is he sticking around at the helm, or will Nikon replace him? Davide DB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilkka Nissila Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 4 hours ago, kye said: That's what I was asking. My point was that the math that sits underneath the many branded names is mostly the same. TicoRAW will be just another branded version of something that someone else wrote. My original post was wondering what it was... intoPIX's patents describe the algorithm. If it is the same as used in another previous product then it is unlikely to have been granted a patent. Of course this assumes the patent office can understand the algorithms and the novelties in context, which is not necessarily the case. Given the patent text it should be possible to implement it. kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ac6000cw Posted March 19 Share Posted March 19 6 hours ago, kye said: My point was that the math that sits underneath the many branded names is mostly the same. TicoRAW will be just another branded version of something that someone else wrote. My original post was wondering what it was... intoPIX and Fraunhofer IIS are the two major contributors to the JPEG XS patent pool - https://www.jpegxspool.com/ and https://www.jpegxspool.com/s/JPEG-XS-Patent-Pool-Licensed-Patents-01-Oct-2023.pdf and https://www.tinynews.be/jpeg-xs-intopix-belgique/ As JPEG XS uses a wavelet transform, there is a reasonable chance TicoRAW uses a wavelet transform in its implementation, especially as JPEG XS has built-in support for RAW Bayer/CFA images - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JPEG_XS#Sensor_compression But as intoPIX is a developer of video compression technology, TicoRAW unlikely to be "just another branded version of something that someone else wrote." Davide DB and kye 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Andrew Reid Posted March 20 Administrators Share Posted March 20 Mark my words TicoRAW is a dead dodo Nikon is all about R3D from now on and it will be on all their cameras in place of N-RAW which is going away. I don't know if it has already been mentioned earlier in the thread but Adobe has already put on hold support for it. Davide DB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davide DB Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 13 hours ago, Andrew Reid said: I don't know if it has already been mentioned earlier in the thread but Adobe has already put on hold support for it. yes few messages ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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