Motion Cadencemo

[Mattias Burling]

Here's something I shot on the red one mx - it seems to have a better motion feel to it than the dragon or red epic - I don't know why and I can't verify this - but something about it feels better.  Still it feels really nice - the red one mx.

I'm testing Red One MX vs F35 vs Digital Bolex on Thursday.  testing motion, grading, skin tones, etc etc.

 

 

Looking forward to that test. Do you have dslr, Gh4 or something to throw in as well?  

[Ed_David]

Looking forward to that test. Do you have dslr, Gh4 or something to throw in as well?  

​Well I do, I have the NX1 and A7S - but this is a test of RGB cameras - those cameras all output a limited 4:2:2 8 bit YUV or equilvilant and have bad rolliing shutter and are CMOS.

These cameras I want to test output 12 bit to 16 bit RGB and are CCD minus the Red One - the CMOS of the group.  But I do like the motion of the Red One over the Epic for some unknown reason - something about it feels right.  The KineRaw would be a nice camera to experiment with - but I'll wait till it's available stateside.  Also of course, the BMCC is nice as well - but I'm testing cameras I have right here.

[Mattias Burling]

​Well I do, I have the NX1 and A7S - but this is a test of RGB cameras - those cameras all output a limited 4:2:2 8 bit YUV or equilvilant and have bad rolliing shutter and are CMOS.

These cameras I want to test output 12 bit to 16 bit RGB and are CCD minus the Red One - the CMOS of the group.  But I do like the motion of the Red One over the Epic for some unknown reason - something about it feels right.  The KineRaw would be a nice camera to experiment with - but I'll wait till it's available stateside.  Also of course, the BMCC is nice as well - but I'm testing cameras I have right here.

I understand and I'm mostly interested in the f35 as a possible big brother to my D16.

But there has been some CCD vs CMOS discussions lately so it would be fun imo to just see a simple pan with them Vs an 8-bit camera. But by all means, Im looking forward to the test anyway since there so doubt in my mind that they would be miles apart

[Ed_David]

I understand and I'm mostly interested in the f35 as a possible big brother to my D16.

But there has been some CCD vs CMOS discussions lately so it would be fun imo to just see a simple pan with them Vs an 8-bit camera. But by all means, Im looking forward to the test anyway since there so doubt in my mind that they would be miles apart

​MacGregor did this with this test - check it out!

 

[Kristoferman]

Here's something I shot on the red one mx - it seems to have a better motion feel to it than the dragon or red epic - I don't know why and I can't verify this - but something about it feels better.  Still it feels really nice - the red one mx.

I'm testing Red One MX vs F35 vs Digital Bolex on Thursday.  testing motion, grading, skin tones, etc etc.

 

 

Gorgeous footage.  Makes me want to reconsider getting the Red ONE

[Ed_David]

Gorgeous footage.  Makes me want to reconsider getting the Red ONE

​I think Red One vs Kine Mini - Red One is old - it is stable - but test it

Red One vs Blackmagic 2.5k with speed booster - pretty similar dynamic range - would be an interesting test

vs new blackmagic cameras could be interesting too

I think a lot of people are selling their red gear right now - so yes check it out - but still I am curious how red one mx compares with blackmagic's offerings - I think the red one mx slightly has better looking motion but that's me again - who knows - need to do a test.

always do a test - renting cameras is cheap thanks to lensrental

[BenEricson]

​MacGregor did this with this test - check it out!

That still is a prime example of how hard it is to get nice looking color with a Sony. 

[Jonesy Jones]

Here's something I shot on the red one mx - it seems to have a better motion feel to it than the dragon or red epic - I don't know why and I can't verify this - but something about it feels better.  Still it feels really nice - the red one mx.

I'm testing Red One MX vs F35 vs Digital Bolex on Thursday.  testing motion, grading, skin tones, etc etc.

 

 

​You have a distinct shooting/editing style. I hope you don't mind, but I may have to borrow from it at some point in the future.

[Ed_David]

​You have a distinct shooting/editing style. I hope you don't mind, but I may have to borrow from it at some point in the future.

Please do so. Thats the whole point of art. You get inspiration then you do it with your style. its a cycle. thats how we all grow.

[QuickHitRecord]

I thought about starting a new thread, but there is already so much theory packed into this old discussion that I decided to revive it and see if the last nine years of camera releases might add to the discussion -- which always seems to bring up some high emotions (for those of you who feel an eye roll coming on, feel free to write me off as not knowing what I am talking about and move along).

I'm coming at it from a deeply subjective standpoint. I always try to find wide shots with people walking in them as my baseline. More cameras than not look "off" to me.

With that out of the way, which cameras produce your favorite 24p motion in 2024? My favorites are all older cameras:

Motion Picture Film - The original and best. It pulls me in and almost puts me in a trance-like state.

Red One MX - Honestly, the best digital motion I've seen. It looks better to me than any newer Red or frankly, anything from Arri.

Ikonoskop A-Cam Dii and Digital Bolex D16 - Really nice.

And some sleepers too:

Canon EOS-M with Magic Lantern - It just looks right to me. Much better than my C70.

Panasonic GH1 - Odd, I know. But yes. And it looks slightly better to me than the GH2.

[PannySVHS]

I've seen Gh1 videos which impressed me a big deal color wise. I had posted one a few years ago. But textures were never that appealing to me because of the codec. G6 was so much better in that regard. From cameras i used myself I was the least happy with motion when footage was too sharp as it was with my S1 or when codec was not up to par like on a G6 in lowlight. I love my Bmpcc and Bmmcc for colour and motion.

My Sony PMW F3 looked great, judging from my own test footage and the clips which were still on the card when I bought it.

Ikonoskop is a camera i always wanted to try. The Coney Island video on vimeo impressed very much back then. Colors, motion, plasticity, setting and summer grooves did their thing but colors were really magical. It is not a S16 but a 16mm camera iirc.

[kye]

Since that 24p argument discussion I've been thinking about frame rates and motion a lot and shot a few tests etc, and eventually got around to thinking about how to view content on the computer properly.  I finally realised that the solution is to set your display to 48Hz (or 120Hz / 240Hz if you can do it) and that will give you proper 24p playback.  

I do all my streaming and YT viewing on my computer via a display that the OS controls, so currently with a 60Hz refresh rate I'm perfectly recreating the 30p (yuk) and 60p videos (double yuk!) but the 24p is jittery.  My current MBP can't do 48Hz but the newest ones from Apple can do 48Hz and 120Hz / 240Hz, so it's on my radar.

I currently edit in Resolve through a UltraStudio 3G box that drives the display directly with whatever the timeline resolution and frame rate is, but that's only for my videos, not for watching anything else unfortunately.

[Tim Sewell]

7 hours ago, kye said:

Since that 24p argument discussion I've been thinking about frame rates and motion a lot and shot a few tests etc, and eventually got around to thinking about how to view content on the computer properly.  I finally realised that the solution is to set your display to 48Hz (or 120Hz / 240Hz if you can do it) and that will give you proper 24p playback.  

I do all my streaming and YT viewing on my computer via a display that the OS controls, so currently with a 60Hz refresh rate I'm perfectly recreating the 30p (yuk) and 60p videos (double yuk!) but the 24p is jittery.  My current MBP can't do 48Hz but the newest ones from Apple can do 48Hz and 120Hz / 240Hz, so it's on my radar.

I currently edit in Resolve through a UltraStudio 3G box that drives the display directly with whatever the timeline resolution and frame rate is, but that's only for my videos, not for watching anything else unfortunately.

Interesting. The BenQ 4K monitor I generally use (on MBPro M1 Ultra) will give me 24Hz but not 48. Resolve playback at 24 seems smoother, however.

[ac6000cw]

I bought a used OM-1 a while ago, and it's slowly turned into my favoured camera for video since then (despite some of its annoyances).

I think part of the reason for that is because it has a very fast readout stacked sensor, with rolling shutter time around 5-7 ms in FHD & UHD, which seems to give a 'solidity' to the video combined with fluid motion handling (I normally shoot at 50p), compared to my G9 with about 12-15 ms rolling shutter.

If my liking of the OM-1 video is due to low rolling shutter then maybe I'm subconsciously sensitive to the picture  distortions created by rolling shutter (including interactions with the IBIS behaviour). But then I'm often filming subjects like trains which readily show up rolling shutter distortions, so maybe that's sensitised me to it?

[PannySVHS]

That is an exiting prospect to be shown off to us! @ac6000cw  I know it is often a bit of a hassle to do. But if you come around and share some OM1 goodness with us that would be super nice. 🙂 I will hopefully get around to treat us with some HD 100fps goodness from my S1H some time soon. I've seen some 100fps from the A73 and it looked pretty nice despite the puny codec. So I figure the S1H with its 10bit 200mbit codec will do pretty well.

[KnightsFan]

Yup, it was always amusing when people watched 24p on a 60 fps monitor and claimed it looks better than 30p. Maybe some people like the effect of pulldowns or frame blending, but to me it's a strong BS indicator. I am fortunate enough to have a 120 fps monitor, which is a great number because it's divisible by 24, 30, and 60. It's great that high refresh rates on our screens are the norm now!

 

30 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

If my liking of the OM-1 video is due to low rolling shutter then maybe I'm subconsciously sensitive to the picture  distortions created by rolling shutter (including interactions with the IBIS behaviour). But then I'm often filming subjects like trains which readily show up rolling shutter distortions, so maybe that's sensitised me to it?

I really dislike rolling shutter. It's one of my least favorite imperfections. I'm not saying "global shutter or bust" but the faster the better, and 10ms is around the cutoff where I'm happy. Quick controlled pans don't bother me so much as the vague wobble when it's on a steadicam, or handheld. My favorite movies to make have plenty of action, running, fighting, etc. so it's way more present to me than for most corporate or wedding shooters. I'd sacrifice a stop of DR and noise from modern full frame sensors to get rs in the 5 ms range instead of the 20ms range.

The nice thing is that plenty of budget cinema cameras have fast readouts these days, like the UMP 4.6k G2, FX6, and of course Komodo.

[QuickHitRecord]

For years I was certain the global shutter was directly related to motion cadence, but I'm not so sure anymore. Most of the cameras that I like the motion from most have rolling shutters. I've shot with the Komodo and owned the Blackmagic Production Camera for a while. I was not blown away by either. And I did a lot of research into the Magic Motion mount for the DSMC1 cameras, and actually thought that the global shutter looked worse on those cameras than footage from cameras without it.

[KnightsFan]

When people talk about motion cadence, I think it's a conflation of many possible sources, where rolling shutter is just one piece and is often not the prominent one. The various motion problems I have identified are below. I don't see a lot of discussion on 4, 5, and 6 on film forums. I see stuff about 4 every now and then.

Obvious Settings

1. Frame rate (24 vs 30 vs etc)

2. Shutter speed

Sensor Tech

3. Rolling shutter

4. Weird artifacts almost like double exposures. My camera explicitly has a mode that captures at two shutter speeds simultaneously for higher dynamic range. I've seen artifacts like that on other cameras, but not advertised as a specialty mode.

Display Issues

5. Display scan rate, frame rate, ghosting, trails. Some screens scan slowly, like rolling shutter on the display end. Others have ghosting effects, where the previous frame is still slightly visible, or trails. I see a lot more information about displays on video game tech sites, rather than film tech sites. Refresh rate, as mentioned earlier, includes pull downs or judder, to fit nondivisible integers.

6. Decode speed (laggy motion with H.265 on older computers, and stutter from high bitrate files on old mechanical drives).

[kye]

7 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

I bought a used OM-1 a while ago, and it's slowly turned into my favoured camera for video since then (despite some of its annoyances).

I think part of the reason for that is because it has a very fast readout stacked sensor, with rolling shutter time around 5-7 ms in FHD & UHD, which seems to give a 'solidity' to the video combined with fluid motion handling (I normally shoot at 50p), compared to my G9 with about 12-15 ms rolling shutter.

If my liking of the OM-1 video is due to low rolling shutter then maybe I'm subconsciously sensitive to the picture  distortions created by rolling shutter (including interactions with the IBIS behaviour). But then I'm often filming subjects like trains which readily show up rolling shutter distortions, so maybe that's sensitised me to it?

It might be testable.

Record equivalent clips of motion in 120p and in 24p, then put them both on a low-resolution timeline like SD (which will smooth over any codec / bitrate advantage of the 24p) and see how they compare.  Obviously you'll need to use a short shutter speed so it won't be the nicest images ever, but you should get something comparable with RS as the only significant difference.

6 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Yup, it was always amusing when people watched 24p on a 60 fps monitor and claimed it looks better than 30p. Maybe some people like the effect of pulldowns or frame blending, but to me it's a strong BS indicator. I am fortunate enough to have a 120 fps monitor, which is a great number because it's divisible by 24, 30, and 60. It's great that high refresh rates on our screens are the norm now!

I've done extensive tests on both 60p OS monitors and on dedicated controlled monitors and 24p wins over 30p in all situations by a significant margin.  The fact that 24p has jerky pans isn't ideal, but I only find it visible in the odd shot here and there, whereas the slippery sensation from 30p completely saturates the images and looks awful the whole time.

I raised the idea of setting the display to 48 or 120Hz because I'd like to eliminate the jitter of 24p on my 60Hz OS display, but I'm a million miles away from switching to 30p, even if my display was fixed at 60p forever.

Perhaps the whole point of the 24p thread was that one person shouldn't tell another person what is good or not good to see or prefer in an image.

4 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

Display Issues

5. Display scan rate, frame rate, ghosting, trails. Some screens scan slowly, like rolling shutter on the display end. Others have ghosting effects, where the previous frame is still slightly visible, or trails. I see a lot more information about displays on video game tech sites, rather than film tech sites. Refresh rate, as mentioned earlier, includes pull downs or judder, to fit nondivisible integers.

I suspect that some codecs contribute to this as well.  For example if you have an IPB codec with a low bitrate then in moments with high motion the codec won't have enough bits to describe all the parts of the image that have changed, so there will still be remnants of the previous frame that are included in the current one.  I've seen this in real examples and things like low-contrast textures on a wall can remain in place while the camera pans, making it look like the wall is moving but the surface of it is staying in place, like the wall is a portal to another dimension, etc.

I'm not sure where the motion cadence magic comes from, but my suspicions agree with you that it's likely a combination of a number of factors.

One thing that I suspect plays a part is the tripling of some of these codec/compression effects:

• you shoot on a camera that processes the image (potentially emphasising these with sharpening, NR etc)
• the camera then compresses in a codec which creates a number of false motion artefacts in the footage
• you edit and process the image (potentially emphasising the artefacts with sharpening, NR etc)
• the NLE then compresses in a delivery codec which creates a number of false motion artefacts in the footage
• then this footage is uploaded to a streaming service where it processes the image (potentially emphasising these with sharpening, NR etc)
• the streaming service then compresses in a very low-bitrate streaming codec which creates a number of false motion artefacts in the footage

There are likely to be artefacts that get 'seen' by the processing / compression algorithms and further emphasised.  For example in a panning shot anything that doesn't move might be deliberately left alone as a compression optimisation, so by the time that you're watching it on YT the image has deviated significantly from the source.

[ac6000cw]

On 3/1/2024 at 6:30 PM, PannySVHS said:

That is an exiting prospect to be shown off to us! @ac6000cw  I know it is often a bit of a hassle to do. But if you come around and share some OM1 goodness with us that would be super nice. 🙂 I will hopefully get around to treat us with some HD 100fps goodness from my S1H some time soon. I've seen some 100fps from the A73 and it looked pretty nice despite the puny codec. So I figure the S1H with its 10bit 200mbit codec will do pretty well.

Here is a collection of 10-bit OMLog400 and HLG files (and a couple of stills) from my OM-1 - https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1527WMHFXJmDvTGI74QINJQdstgJPhXyt?usp=sharing

All are FHD, using shutter priority ay 1/100s (auto-ISO and auto-aperture), auto WB (with the 'keep warm colors' option on) and C-AF set to a medium central area - so pretty much 'point and shoot' video. Lens was Oly 12-40 F2.8 pro. IBIS was sensor shift only, mostly on the maximum stability '+1' setting (which can cause jerky pans - the standard setting is '0').