Yashica Micro Mirrorless: New MILC system developed by I'm Back

[eatstoomuchjam]

Potentially of interest to the people who want the smallest possible 4K MILC to carry around, the people at I'm Back (mostly known for making a ridiculous replacement film back with a tiny sensor for classic film cameras) are kickstarting a new mirrorless system that they call "Micro Mirrorless."

Looks like it's based around IMX177 - so it's a 12 megapixel 1/2.3" sensor capable of 4kp24.  It looks like they have plans for an adapter that allows lenses from other systems to be used (though of course with a 6x or so crop factor courtesy of the tiny sensor.  From photos/video of the mount, I don't see any electrical contacts so I'm assuming that the adapter will be passive (hopefully it's micro 4/3 so that speed boosters are usable).

Mostly, it's something to keep an eye on - I thought about taking a flyer on it since it's so cheap ($315 with 3 extremely mediocre lenses), but then I saw that they're not planning to ship until December 2024.  If there's gonna be that much of a wait anyway, it puts me over the edge to "see what real people say about it after (maybe) receiving their rewards and just pay full price (which is still only around $400) if it's any good (90% chance that it won't be)."  In the meantime, maybe I'll just build one of those Raspberry Pi "cinema cameras" which use a similar (or the same?) sensor.

Anyway, assuming that it funds/ships, it will be the smallest shipping 4K ILC around.  As almost always, I dissuade anybody from risking money on kickstarter product speculation.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/samellos/micro-mirrorless-yashica-im-back

[kye]

35 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Potentially of interest to the people who want the smallest possible 4K MILC to carry around, the people at I'm Back (mostly known for making a ridiculous replacement film back with a tiny sensor for classic film cameras) are kickstarting a new mirrorless system that they call "Micro Mirrorless."

Looks like it's based around IMX177 - so it's a 12 megapixel 1/2.3" sensor capable of 4kp24.  It looks like they have plans for an adapter that allows lenses from other systems to be used (though of course with a 6x or so crop factor courtesy of the tiny sensor.  From photos/video of the mount, I don't see any electrical contacts so I'm assuming that the adapter will be passive (hopefully it's micro 4/3 so that speed boosters are usable).

Mostly, it's something to keep an eye on - I thought about taking a flyer on it since it's so cheap ($315 with 3 extremely mediocre lenses), but then I saw that they're not planning to ship until December 2024.  If there's gonna be that much of a wait anyway, it puts me over the edge to "see what real people say about it after (maybe) receiving their rewards and just pay full price (which is still only around $400) if it's any good (90% chance that it won't be)."  In the meantime, maybe I'll just build one of those Raspberry Pi "cinema cameras" which use a similar (or the same?) sensor.

Anyway, assuming that it funds/ships, it will be the smallest shipping 4K ILC around.  As almost always, I dissuade anybody from risking money on kickstarter product speculation.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/samellos/micro-mirrorless-yashica-im-back

What a fascinating project!  I wish them well, but it's not exactly what I need.

I do think there is a niche here, though.  The competitors are:

• MFT - much larger in comparison
• Action cameras - either don't shoot in high enough bitrates or don't have a good / large enough front-facing camera or don't have the lens options
• Smartphones - some don't shoot in high enough bitrates but all(?) either have one focal length on the selfie-side that isn't very wide or have several on the rear but no selfie screen at all (or it's tiny)

The challenge with such a system would be the crop factor and getting lenses at the wider end - it's hard enough for the S16 crop of the P2K and M2K, but this is much worse.

Perhaps the competition is a smartphone plus an action camera with front-facing screen?  Still not the best combo.

[eatstoomuchjam]

If not for the challenges focusing/framing on the teeny tiny screen and lack of HDMI output (or wired connectivity to iPhone for video preview), I think my Backbone-modified Insta360 One R would be superior in almost every way (1" sensor, lots more frame rates/resolutions).  It's too bad that wifi preview is laggy and that (at least the last time I checked), still pretty small since it won't rotate to landscape with the phone.

But yeah, totally agreed that their main competition is action cameras.  I'd also add used ZV1 ($450ish right now) and used RX100 V ($500ish) to the competitor list.  I'd still use my ZV1 for vlogging stuff if I didn't have a backlog of unedited vlogs going back to 2020 or so.  You can't swap the lens, but it's basically a 24-70 equiv.  If people really want the 20mm of the wide for the micro, I guess they could get a used ZV1 II ($700) which has like an 18-50 equiv. lens (and better 3x ND filter), but has the minus of a slower and non-stabilized lens.

For me, assuming the HDMI output is decent and not overly laggy (or the built-in screen is better than I'd expect), it'd be something I could mount on the back of some of my telephoto lenses to turn them into telescopes.  1/2.3" sensor + Leica R 250/4 = 1500mm equivalent lens.  Or on the 560mm Telyt-R, a 3500mm (though since both lack any sort of stabilization, even on a heavy tripod with a sandbag, the slightest breeze will cause visible jitter) - and if any of the first-party lenses are better than the example images indicate, maybe they'd be a nice plus.  🙂

[kye]

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

If not for the challenges focusing/framing on the teeny tiny screen and lack of HDMI output (or wired connectivity to iPhone for video preview), I think my Backbone-modified Insta360 One R would be superior in almost every way (1" sensor, lots more frame rates/resolutions).  It's too bad that wifi preview is laggy and that (at least the last time I checked), still pretty small since it won't rotate to landscape with the phone.

But yeah, totally agreed that their main competition is action cameras.  I'd also add used ZV1 ($450ish right now) and used RX100 V ($500ish) to the competitor list.  I'd still use my ZV1 for vlogging stuff if I didn't have a backlog of unedited vlogs going back to 2020 or so.  You can't swap the lens, but it's basically a 24-70 equiv.  If people really want the 20mm of the wide for the micro, I guess they could get a used ZV1 II ($700) which has like an 18-50 equiv. lens (and better 3x ND filter), but has the minus of a slower and non-stabilized lens.

For me, assuming the HDMI output is decent and not overly laggy (or the built-in screen is better than I'd expect), it'd be something I could mount on the back of some of my telephoto lenses to turn them into telescopes.  1/2.3" sensor + Leica R 250/4 = 1500mm equivalent lens.  Or on the 560mm Telyt-R, a 3500mm (though since both lack any sort of stabilization, even on a heavy tripod with a sandbag, the slightest breeze will cause visible jitter) - and if any of the first-party lenses are better than the example images indicate, maybe they'd be a nice plus.  🙂

When I was first getting into video I experimented with a selfie angle, but eventually realised that the videos I wanted to make didn't need it.

What I learned though was:

• You need a super-wide angle lens, unless:
  - you want to be walking around with your arm extended almost the whole way, which is tiring, impractical in more crowded situations, and attracts a huge amount of attention
  - you want to be walking around with a camera on a stick, which has the same challenges in crowds and attracting attention
  - you are fine with the frame just being of your head and nothing else
• You don't actually need a selfie-screen
  You can just get used to the framing and if you put yourself in the middle of the frame then the lens distortion is fine - millions of hours of vlogging footage was recorded on Sony FF cameras with 16-35mm lenses and no flippy-screen

If I was vlogging as part of my videos I'd just get one of the action cameras with a half-decent audio input and customise it from there, potentially with a diopter to adjust the focus to be perfect for the right vlogging distance and throw the background out of focus a touch.  I'd also just apply un-sharpening in post to improve the image quality by 20-40%.

[eatstoomuchjam]

That's all pretty reasonable.  Though at least for me, the ZV-1 works well at its widest - partly since I don't often want to film myself in extremely crowded situations.  I have a mount on my dashboard with a 1/4x20 (it's on a little t-track that is made for the mounting points on a Jeep) where I can use it to film myself while driving (nearly the perfect focal length for this) and then since I'm usually going out to the middle of nowhere, there's really nobody to care that I'm there.  When I put the ZV-1 on the little Sony bluetooth handle, it puts it just about 4-5 inches further from me which works out well enough for a head & shoulders shot (which is still tighter than a lot of the kids prefer, but I like it).

This is an example - most of the "vlog" parts were with ZV-1 - either dash-mounted or on the handle.  I think the car-mounted cameras were a Hero 9 and an Insta360 One R with 1" mod.  Just about everything else including the silly thing with the Racetrack rocks at the end was on the original GFX 100.  About the only thing that I'd change would be for the handle to be about 2-3" longer, to have the internal ND on the camera be another stop stronger, and for the lens OIS to be a bit better for bumpy roads (Jeeps, by design, have pretty stiff suspensions).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faS2uFTCZBM
 

[kye]

4 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

That's all pretty reasonable.  Though at least for me, the ZV-1 works well at its widest - partly since I don't often want to film myself in extremely crowded situations.  I have a mount on my dashboard with a 1/4x20 (it's on a little t-track that is made for the mounting points on a Jeep) where I can use it to film myself while driving (nearly the perfect focal length for this) and then since I'm usually going out to the middle of nowhere, there's really nobody to care that I'm there.  When I put the ZV-1 on the little Sony bluetooth handle, it puts it just about 4-5 inches further from me which works out well enough for a head & shoulders shot (which is still tighter than a lot of the kids prefer, but I like it).

This is an example - most of the "vlog" parts were with ZV-1 - either dash-mounted or on the handle.  I think the car-mounted cameras were a Hero 9 and an Insta360 One R with 1" mod.  Just about everything else including the silly thing with the Racetrack rocks at the end was on the original GFX 100.  About the only thing that I'd change would be for the handle to be about 2-3" longer, to have the internal ND on the camera be another stop stronger, and for the lens OIS to be a bit better for bumpy roads (Jeeps, by design, have pretty stiff suspensions).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faS2uFTCZBM
 

Cool you have a setup that works for you.

I guess the thing that I noticed with the different focal lengths was that you needed the width to make it look like you weren't holding a camera.

I assume this angle is the ZV-1 on the handle?

Whereas this is a GoPro on a similar handle:

It just doesn't have that same "I'm holding you as far away from me as I can!!" sort of vibe 🙂 

I do recall parts of Asia also having signs up that said "No selfie sticks", as well as places like the Vatican IIRC?  The Vatican also doesn't allow tripods either, so not sure how the handle would go if it splits into legs.

Make Art Now also got a reasonable frame with the Insta360 Ace Pro by putting a diopter on it to shorten the focal distance:

But, in the end, it's what's in front of the camera that matters 🙂 

[Emanuel]

4 hours ago, kye said:

(...)

Make Art Now also got a reasonable frame with the Insta360 Ace Pro by putting a diopter on it to shorten the focal distance:

But, in the end, it's what's in front of the camera that matters 🙂 

Lurking these boards these cold days over here since I unfortunately had the loss of my life... one's of very own* mourning path, last month* : (

 

...it's rewarding to see that our posts from more or less recent past don't go away so unnoticeable at least over here, after all:

 

Just to give my regards @kye and to the rest of the gang :- )

 

*in Portuguese

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I assume this angle is the ZV-1 on the handle?

You assume correctly.
 

4 hours ago, kye said:

It just doesn't have that same "I'm holding you as far away from me as I can!!" sort of vibe 🙂 

I do recall parts of Asia also having signs up that said "No selfie sticks", as well as places like the Vatican IIRC?  The Vatican also doesn't allow tripods either, so not sure how the handle would go if it splits into legs.

Yeah, I'm not saying in any way that it's perfect or that I don't get why a lot of people prefer a wider angle.  It's why Sony came out with the ZV1 II - I just wish they hadn't taken a note from Canon and taken away a useful feature for every other useful feature that they added.  The next time I buy a new iPhone (probably when the new one is announced later this year), it might even remover that use of the ZV1 for me since the newer ones can apparently record to an SSD now.

I assume that there are also close-up diopters for those action cameras that also feature ND?  One of the reasons that I shy away form using any of my action cameras for that kind of thing is that it's annoying to have to remember all of the necessary accessories and it's a bit fussy to have to put them on/take them off when the light changes (e.g. when walking into a building).  With the ZV1, I just push a button and an ND filter pops into place.  🙂 

Also, even if I were still regularly vlogging, I definitely wouldn't be trying to do it at the Vatican.  When traveling abroad these days, I pretty much bring the GFX 100 II and a few lenses (and maybe a DJI Mini 3, depending on where)...  and maybe a film camera, depending.

[kye]

4 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

You assume correctly.
 

Yeah, I'm not saying in any way that it's perfect or that I don't get why a lot of people prefer a wider angle.  It's why Sony came out with the ZV1 II - I just wish they hadn't taken a note from Canon and taken away a useful feature for every other useful feature that they added.  The next time I buy a new iPhone (probably when the new one is announced later this year), it might even remover that use of the ZV1 for me since the newer ones can apparently record to an SSD now.

I assume that there are also close-up diopters for those action cameras that also feature ND?  One of the reasons that I shy away form using any of my action cameras for that kind of thing is that it's annoying to have to remember all of the necessary accessories and it's a bit fussy to have to put them on/take them off when the light changes (e.g. when walking into a building).  With the ZV1, I just push a button and an ND filter pops into place.  🙂 

Also, even if I were still regularly vlogging, I definitely wouldn't be trying to do it at the Vatican.  When traveling abroad these days, I pretty much bring the GFX 100 II and a few lenses (and maybe a DJI Mini 3, depending on where)...  and maybe a film camera, depending.

Yeah, phones are getting really good now, with RAW and Prores and Apple Log and recording to SSDs.  The thing I think is missing is a wide-angle selfie camera.  Trying to film yourself using an ultra-wide but without being able to see yourself is possible but hitting record, then turning the phone around, and shooting while presenting a bright image of the frame to everyone around you is strange and awkward on almost all levels!

I don't know if the diopters for action cameras also have NDs.  They might, considering that a diopter is as technical/geeky as an ND would be, but action cameras are practically designed inside and out to have a short shutter, so it kind of goes against the whole ethos in a way.

[MrSMW]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:22 AM, eatstoomuchjam said:

As almost always, I dissuade anybody from risking money on kickstarter product speculation.

Yup. Had my fingers (wallet) burned over a revolutionary tripod I backed. I can't remember how long the saga went on for, but it was at least 3 years and painful for all involved. Never again!

But in regard to this product, maybe I am just not the market, but nah, I'd rather go with any number of alternative existing options or my phone. Surely this kind of thing these days is so niche it's near pointless? But what do I know...

[eatstoomuchjam]

For me, my willingness to use kickstarter is perversely whether or not the company already has a track record of delivering quality products successfully, either through kickstarter or through other platforms.  Like recently, I backed a 4x10 film camera being made by a guy who has been selling a well-regarded line of pinhole cameras for years.  I'm very confident that it will ship eventually.  I've thankfully only been burnt a couple of times on pretty small things for products that never delivered...  products that delivered and were awful?  That's another story.

Anyway, as I said, my interest in it, if I have any at all after it's released, would be as something I can mount on the back of a telephoto lens - or as something that can turn a pretty normal portrait lens into a long telephoto.  Could be nice for travel where (at present) a long lens (200mm+) is a big and heavy thing that I often leave home.

[MrSMW]

14 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Like recently, I backed a 4x10 film camera being made by a guy who has been selling a well-regarded line of pinhole cameras for years

Yes, that’s fair enough and should there be a situation where there was some provenance or personal connection, I would also make an exception.

’My’ experience was monthly updates of a company swanning around the world, asking for evermore amounts of cash for increased swanning. Until they pulled the plug and refused to allow anything or anyone else to carry out the project 🤨

[Marcio Kabke Pinheiro]

On 3/28/2024 at 6:42 AM, MrSMW said:

Yup. Had my fingers (wallet) burned over a revolutionary tripod I backed. I can't remember how long the saga went on for, but it was at least 3 years and painful for all involved. Never again!

But in regard to this product, maybe I am just not the market, but nah, I'd rather go with any number of alternative existing options or my phone. Surely this kind of thing these days is so niche it's near pointless? But what do I know...

Me too - supported the LabBox film developer, even with bigger shipping tax to Brazil, and...nothing. They started to sold it in retail, and...nothing.
After almost two years, they emailed me saying that the shipping to Brazil was too expensive, and refunded me. With no interest correction.
Never more.

About the Yashica - considering the absolute junk that was the last "Yashica" camera, and that the lenses looks made of plastic, in no way I will get one.