Why APSC is dead

[ricardo_sousa11]

The Nx1 says you're wrong...

[Liam]

even stopping all the way down, it's hard to get everything in focus sometimes, which is a cool effect. a had a 50mm lens on apsc the other day filming, and often at f/16, which looked really cool at the time, but later I realized things were often out of focus :/ disappointing when I thought I had a different shot. a small sensor second camera makes a lot of sense to me. and great PL lenses usually don't cover ff, and insanely fast voigtlanders for mft are pretty much just amazing, and iso really isn't always better on ff. and I often like to think focal lengths in terms of s35 actually. and zero cinema cameras are ff. so, I disagree.

[j.f.r.]

Professional Film is going FF and larger while photography is as well or honestly has always been (medium format).

 

You can still create beautiful images though with most camera's, even smaller sensor ones. The advantage from my experience of larger sensor cameras is first and foremost noise performance, wide angle and dof. While Blackmagic with their pocket/micro camera may have smaller sensors it's really the lovely dynamic range and color science that make the image look so "film like".

 

Talking cameras is cool and fun, but honestly everyone needs to focus more on their own work with the tools they have which is more than enough to get to where you want to be and then you can always use better gear.......

 

[The Chris]

So for photography everyone agree. 

​Not me and I currently own two FF and two APS-c cameras, and have owned a few m43 as well. The beauty of APS-c is that it really falls in the middle of M43 and FF -- smaller/cheaper lenses than FF, bigger sensor and higher IQ/DR than M43. APS-c isn't going anywhere, look at the Amazon rankings for ILC's, all of the top sellers are APS-c. There's a small advantage with FF in terms on noise/DR - though not much and in many cases there's no advantage at all (Canon FF vs. Sony/Samsung APS-c). DOF is really the only place FF has a clear advantage, but even then its only one stop. And geez, look at the size/price of the new FE 35. 

FF has its advantages from an IQ standpoint, but lenses are more expensive and much larger. Depends on your needs and budget, but APS-c is the biggest part of the ILC market because it offers the best IQ (talking stills) for the money. A better test from your original post would be to put the FE 35/1.4 on the A6000 and the A7, so you're comparing two 24mp images with the same sensor bloodline. Fuji and Sony are so different because of the X-trans rendering. The A7s is the outlier in the discussion because of its crazy ISO's, but you're limited to 12mp and below 3200 it isn't anything special compared to any current FF and some APS-c sensors when you downsample the images to 12mp.

APS-c is the midsize sedan of the ILC market - bland and boring, but sells better than any other segment.

[The Chris]

Because I'm bored at work, and to add a little support to why APS-c is clearly not dead, I took a quick look at the Amazon top 100 cameras - there were 33 large sensor cameras in the top 100 -- 31 were ILC's, 4 were FF, 1 was M43, and 2 were the black and silver versions of the X100t (APS-c) see the list below. APS-c clearly dominates both mirrorless and DSLR's. Its the reason why Canon and Nikon crank out new versions so often and why the bottom end E-mount cameras get such quick refreshes - that's where the biggest sales numbers lie. I'd be genuinely shocked if CaNikon wasn't selling 10 APS-c bodies to every FF body, there are just far more people buying $400 kits compared to $2500 bodies.

Top selling ILC's with the overall ranking, asterisks precede the 5 cameras that aren't APS-c:

6. T5 kit

7. D3300

8. Another T5 Kit

9. Nex 5TL

15. Another T5 kit

18. D3200 Kit

26. T5i

28. D3300 kit

29. Another T5 kit

42. A6000

44. T3i Kit

45. 70d

*46. 5d3

*47. 6d

54. T5i kit

*56. GH4

59. D7000

68. D3100

71. X100T silver

72. D7100

76. 70d kit

77. T3

79. D3300 kit

*82. D750

83. A3000

85. X100T black

86. Another T5 kit

88. D7200

89. D3200

91. A6000 kit

92. T5i kit

*93. D810

100. Another T5i kit

 

[tugela]

The Nx1 says you're wrong...

​APS-C cameras outsell FF versions by a large margin, and for good reason. The idea that APS-C is dead is absurd.

[ricardo_sousa11]

​APS-C cameras outsell FF versions by a large margin, and for good reason. The idea that APS-C is dead is absurd.

​

I've wanted a full frame camera ever since I got my 600D, I thought that was the way to go, better image quality overall and better bokeh. But as I've learned more and more on photography and video, I realizes that is not what I needed, and actually started looking at smaller and smaller sensors (GH4 M43). At this point i've decided to get the NX1, and I dont have any second doubt this is the best video camera I can get for the money, that surpasses any other sensor out there.

[wolf33d]

APSC camera oustells FF because it is cheaper, and the mass sales come from standard people, not the passionates or the pros. 

You guys are very funny. Say a system is not dead because it ranks good on Amazon. LOL . . . 
Steve Jobs would be shocked in his tombstone. 

When I say APSC is dead I am not talking about Amazon ranking, I am talking about THE DIRECTION photo and video is taking, and this direction is towards FF and not APSC which sets the death of APSC. 
Of course it will sell on Amazon this year, the next year and year after. You are very funny ....

[Mattias Burling]

I don't like FF as much as s35 and s16. So if what you say is true, it would be sad. Having to settle for the FFs crop factor. No tele, heavy ND and so on, no thanks. 

Btw, I doubt Steve Jobs is located inside his tombstone and there for not turning in it either ;)

[ricardo_sousa11]

APSC camera oustells FF because it is cheaper, and the mass sales come from standard people, not the passionates or the pros. 

You guys are very funny. Say a system is not dead because it ranks good on Amazon. LOL . . . 
Steve Jobs would be shocked in his tombstone. 

When I say APSC is dead I am not talking about Amazon ranking, I am talking about THE DIRECTION photo and video is taking, and this direction is towards FF and not APSC which sets the death of APSC. 
Of course it will sell on Amazon this year, the next year and year after. You are very funny ....

​You're dead wrong on Video.

I dont believe FF will actually become the norm in video, because the excessive bokeh isnt necessary since we're emulating the Super35 look, unless low light performance like the A7s becomes the standard for FF, which wont probably happen in the next 5 years.

 

APSC isnt dying, its actually growing, lenses like the Sigma 18-35mm give spectacular performance and FF like images on cheap bodies, while retaining high burst rates, adding the high megapixel count that most APSC bodies have (like the 28mpx on the NX1 and 4K) I cannot see how anyone would think APSC is dying in either photography or video.

[agolex]

Thankfully enough discussions like these will never die. *cough*

[AaronChicago]

I don't like FF as much as s35 and s16. So if what you say is true, it would be sad. Having to settle for the FFs crop factor. No tele, heavy ND and so on, no thanks. 

 

​Ditto

[j.f.r.]

​You're dead wrong on Video.

I dont believe FF will actually become the norm in video, because the excessive bokeh isnt necessary since we're emulating the Super35 look, unless low light performance like the A7s becomes the standard for FF, which wont probably happen in the next 5 years.

 

APSC isnt dying, its actually growing, lenses like the Sigma 18-35mm give spectacular performance and FF like images on cheap bodies, while retaining high burst rates, adding the high megapixel count that most APSC bodies have (like the 28mpx on the NX1 and 4K) I cannot see how anyone would think APSC is dying in either photography or video.

​

FF and larger will be the normal use for professionals, always has been and will be for photography and will soon be with Video/Film, hence the reason Arri and RED have cameras now with larger sensors than S35. Now on a prosumer level the Sony A7s shoots Full Frame + Aps-C and even a Clear Zoom scale which I believe is close to MFT crop so the idea that anyone thinks a camera like the A7s is not one if not the best tool is simply because they've never sued it before.

 

Also regarding Bokeh you can easily stop your lens down and raise the iso if you want a deeper DOF, A7s records perfectly clean footage at 6400 iso. In comparison Blackmagic Cameras max out at 800-1600 ASA, RED you never want to shoot about 1250 and lets not even talk about MFT cameras like GH4 where you definitely want to stay under 1000 iso as well.  I truly believe people really make up uninformed opinion about FF cameras and have never owned/used one.

 

[Liam]

I agree that fullframe can be nice. And of course everyone should appreciate the options with the crop modes in the a7s. Which is to say that fullframe is not always what you want. Kinda sick of this topic, sorry. Everyone shoot what you shoot on. Hope none of (doubt any of) these formats die any time soon.

[hmcindie]

The bokeh of FF can be a bit overkill though tbh. Like even in Game of Thrones which uses Super 35 I find a bit annoying that they have all these amazing sets but then everything gets blurred out when someone speaks and theres a head shot 

​That's funny because there was a thread a while back where someone claimed "there are no soft shots in Game of Thrones, everything is sharp! You could shoot it with any sized sensor!"

[hmcindie]

​You're dead wrong on Video.

I dont believe FF will actually become the norm in video, because the excessive bokeh isnt necessary since we're emulating the Super35 look...

​Super35 look? I think most are trying to emulate the anamorphic 35mm look which has considerably more bokeh (and artifacts and softness).

All the great commercial directors seem to be shooting anamorphic. It's great doing vfx for those as every shot is warped x)

[Damphousse]

APSC camera oustells FF because it is cheaper, and the mass sales come from standard people, not the passionates or the pros. 

You guys are very funny. Say a system is not dead because it ranks good on Amazon. LOL . . . 
Steve Jobs would be shocked in his tombstone. 

When I say APSC is dead I am not talking about Amazon ranking, I am talking about THE DIRECTION photo and video is taking, and this direction is towards FF and not APSC which sets the death of APSC. 
Of course it will sell on Amazon this year, the next year and year after. You are very funny ....

​The only person that thinks FF is the end all be all for photography is an amateur with a narrow experience.  The irony of you denigrating people looking at Amazon sales ranks is your posts clearly indicate you are ignorant about 8x10 and medium format film.  Long ago when prices fell on pro film equipment I added medium format film to my repertoire.  You keep saying FF 35mm and using the word bokeh in the same sentence.  If you want real bokeh move up in format to something approaching the gold standard.  With medium format film and larger bokeh just happens.  I spend most of my time trying to just make sure the critical stuff is in focus.  The bokeh in 35mm is laughable by comparison.  I lurk on a film camera website that gets far more traffic than this place and if they read you going on and on about bokeh and 35mm they would laugh.  These guys are routinely ordering sheets of film for cameras larger than 8x10!

 

It's cool that you draw your line at digital and 35mm but that doesn't mean that it is king of the hill.

 

As far as video I think a bunch of people with BMPCCs who would beg to differ...  Myself included.  Medium format is tricky enough for stills.  I actually don't mind a super 16 sensor.  I am a one man band doing casual private little projects.  I don't have a single person dedicated to follow focus.  And I don't like all these videos floating around with shallow DOF where the actors' eyes are going in and out of focus.  Dave Dugdale did a nice commentary on DoF in his GH4 review.  It was very eye opening.  Don't get me wrong I like FF digital for video and stills, but I definitely see that it has it's downsides and there are other things that best it in certain categories.  I am just glad prices are falling and we have choice.

[Fatalfury]

OP is very wrong, aps-c and m43 aren't going anywhere in the next few years. True, the 35mm bodies are getting cheaper and smaller but it's a different story with lenses, which are still expensive and humonguos especially compared to mft. How come there are no pancakes  for Sony A7.

We all know that S35 is a standard for cinema and it gives plenty of depth of field control. I really dig shallow depth of field for photography but excessively thin dof doesn't make a film more cinematic, for me it can give the opposite effect. Often it gives a cheap student film/youtube look. Dynamic range, colors, compositions and the set design are what result in cinematic bliss. Many of the best classic cinema feature fuck all of thin dof. I felt that Upstream Color which was praised for beautiful imagery often featured too shallow dof for my taste and it was shot with a GH2.

So very wrong about m43 being garbage for photography. A talented photographer should have no issues with m43, the system can truly shine with certain lenses and will prove limiting only in the most extreme situations.

 

[tugela]

APSC camera oustells FF because it is cheaper, and the mass sales come from standard people, not the passionates or the pros. 

You guys are very funny. Say a system is not dead because it ranks good on Amazon. LOL . . . 
Steve Jobs would be shocked in his tombstone. 

When I say APSC is dead I am not talking about Amazon ranking, I am talking about THE DIRECTION photo and video is taking, and this direction is towards FF and not APSC which sets the death of APSC. 
Of course it will sell on Amazon this year, the next year and year after. You are very funny ....

​No it isn't. The direction photography is taking for most people is lighter and smaller, which is NOT the direction FF takes them. You are confusing what YOU want with what most people want. It is not the same thing.

Unless you want razor thin DOF or extreme wide angles (and most people neither want nor need that) FF does not offer significant advantages over crop sensors. Crops sensors on the other hand have better reach, something which most users would find more valuable. For the average user something like the APS-C size is the ideal compromise between large and small sensors, not FF.

[The Chris]

APSC camera oustells FF because it is cheaper, and the mass sales come from standard people, not the passionates or the pros. 

You guys are very funny. Say a system is not dead because it ranks good on Amazon. LOL . . . 
Steve Jobs would be shocked in his tombstone. 

When I say APSC is dead I am not talking about Amazon ranking, I am talking about THE DIRECTION photo and video is taking, and this direction is towards FF and not APSC which sets the death of APSC. 
Of course it will sell on Amazon this year, the next year and year after. You are very funny ....

​Your lol-filled argument makes no sense whatsoever, APS-c sales completely trounce FF. And it isn't even close. APS-c isn't going anywhere, because its the dominant force in the market - plain and simple. Even Steve Jobs' corpse is smart enough to see that. Don't know why you can't. If that's your imaging division's major source of revenue, rest assured that's a top priority. APS-c/S35 is also where all the innovation lies with the big 3 (excluding m43 since canon, Nikon and Sony don't produce m43 cameras), internal 4k video, high fps stills, dual pixel AF and more are all finding their way into APS-c/S35 sensor cameras before FF. One could counter-argue FF is dying because more of the innovation is going to APS-c.

You're pushing your own uninformed opinion as fact, when Amazon sales are in fact a measure of where the market is going. Even anecdotal stuff - what cameras are available in large retailers such as Best Buy and Walmart - low end APS-c Canon's and Nikons. FF has not seen mass adoption on the level of APS-c and it never will because costs put it out of reach of many casual users - and that's where the sales numbers lie.

Pros make up a very, very small percentage of the market and have specialized needs that are served by small-volume niche products - hence cameras like the 1dx, D4s, FS7 and so on that use bits and pieces of other models to leverage the costs of development across multiple lines. If you have actual facts to back up your argument, and not just your opinion please provide them. 

Cheers