Nikon N-Line the new Canon C-Line for video?

[EduPortas]

On 4/14/2024 at 1:39 PM, ac6000cw said:

Yes (and in the ZV-1 series), but it's only 8-bit S-Log2/S-Log3/HLG, not the 10-bit version available in the newer and higher end cameras.

I think from a branding perspective, Nikon might use the RED name in the way Panasonic uses Leica and Sony uses Zeiss branding to 'elevate' the higher-end products a bit. And of course DJI have apparently owned the majority of Hasselblad for some years (but don't seem to have made much use of the branding potential of it).

That seems possible to the very niche video guys, but I highly doubt it.

Again, it's a cultural thing. Neither Canon nor Nikon are big supporters of fragmentation. They are vertical and hierarchy plays a BIG role.

[EduPortas]

23 hours ago, kye said:

Yep.  I think it's a matter of friction across an entire lineup, and if you start with a fixed-lens camera and want to "upgrade" then going to a MILC might seem a huge jump up but if your fixed-lens camera also has LOG then there's an "upgrade" right in front of you.  You switch to it, learn about LUTs and colour grading and having flexibility of the image in post.  Then when you want to upgrade your home setup (where size doesn't matter) the fact that you're already shooting N-LOG would be a factor in keeping you in the Nikon ecosystem.

Yes, we'll see what happens (or doesn't) in time.

I guess my thinking was this:

• RED is a huge amount more than just a patent, therefore
• When they bought it, they were buying something valuable that they didn't have
• RED has a bunch of knowledgeable people, a bunch of IP, and recognition and a track record in Hollywood

If Nikon keep the RED brand active then they could do a "best-of" situation, where the RED engineers and technology gets implemented across Nikons existing product lines, and the RED brand gets the benefit of Nikons extensive support network and R&D and manufacturing capabilities.  This would grow the RED brand in Hollywood and in the cinema camera market, which Nikon has zero market penetration of currently, and would help the Nikon brand in it's more premium products.

If Nikon let the RED brand die, then the Nikon line of products can still get the benefits of the RED tech, but any new Nikon products that target the cinema market will essentially untrusted / untested / unknown and apart from "it's got REDRAW in it" they will be a completely new player in this market.  

One thing I think that might not be well known is that a lot of folks in the "industry" have complete contempt and even hatred of the consumer brands and the entire DSLR revolution.  There's a very famous colourist who openly says that putting video into stills cameras was a mistake and they should take it out (yes, he maintains that the manufacturers should all REMOVE the video functions of all these consumer cameras!).

There's a thing where at the first production meeting of a movie there's a moment when someone asks what they're shooting on, and if the answer is ARRI / Alexa then everyone in the room relaxes.  Yes, this means that if they say RED then people don't relax, but if they say RED then at least someone can say "X, Y, Z were all shot on RED".  If someone said "Nikon" at that moment, the reaction might be "the photo people????".  

When you have industry people actively hating the fact that people are shooting music videos on GH5s, someone like Nikon are likely viewed as being from a parallel universe!

Yep, but there's some precedent.

Canon made a serious attempt at these pros with the C-Line. It's trying to do so and seems profitable.

But the REAL market is the digital crowd using pro-equipment but posting their content exclusively on social media. Nikon wants a piece of that delicious pie.

Their new products could be very un-camera like and cater to this new video market and maybe they'll even catch one or two pros in the process.

[kye]

1 hour ago, EduPortas said:

Yep, but there's some precedent.

Canon made a serious attempt at these pros with the C-Line. It's trying to do so and seems profitable.

But the REAL market is the digital crowd using pro-equipment but posting their content exclusively on social media. Nikon wants a piece of that delicious pie.

Their new products could be very un-camera like and cater to this new video market and maybe they'll even catch one or two pros in the process.

I agree that this is a huge market and definitely where Nikon should focus their attention, and an N-line of cameras would be a good way to do that, especially if it took advantage of the tech that RED has.

This doesn't really have much to do with RED making products for Hollywood though - that's a different brand making different products for a different market.  

Mass-market car companies do this all the time.  They use their tonnes of cash to buy an unprofitable sports-car company and get their techs to work on making hot hatchback versions of their cars, and perhaps a new premium line of sports cars under the mass-market brand, but they also help the sports-car brand to improve quality control and keep on making new models.  They don't just close down the sports-car brand.
Virtually all sports-car brands are owned by another manufacturer that makes family cars.

[EduPortas]

2 hours ago, kye said:

I agree that this is a huge market and definitely where Nikon should focus their attention, and an N-line of cameras would be a good way to do that, especially if it took advantage of the tech that RED has.

This doesn't really have much to do with RED making products for Hollywood though - that's a different brand making different products for a different market.  

Mass-market car companies do this all the time.  They use their tonnes of cash to buy an unprofitable sports-car company and get their techs to work on making hot hatchback versions of their cars, and perhaps a new premium line of sports cars under the mass-market brand, but they also help the sports-car brand to improve quality control and keep on making new models.  They don't just close down the sports-car brand.
Virtually all sports-car brands are owned by another manufacturer that makes family cars.

Yes, that's true.

However RED has been a minor player in the high-stakes Hollywood cinema production for some time.

ARRI and Sony seem have an iron fist on that market.

If were a Nikon exec I'd forget the Hollywood market altogether and focus 100% on the influencer kids with some new devices to make the brand cool again and throw a bone to the diehard photogs with new and improved video features in their MILCs.

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, EduPortas said:

If were a Nikon exec I'd forget the Hollywood market altogether and focus 100% on the influencer kids with some new devices to make the brand cool again and throw a bone to the diehard photogs with new and improved video features in their MILCs.

I think it would be a much easier task to develop into this market rather than try and tackle head on the established ‘Hollywood’ industry.

Pretentions of serious filmmaking?

Then have someone use your new Nikon NX3’s on the sequel to ‘The Creator’, but otherwise, gifting 100 units to 100 Kool Kids for their YouTubes is extremely cost effective marketing.

[kye]

2 hours ago, EduPortas said:

Yes, that's true.

However RED has been a minor player in the high-stakes Hollywood cinema production for some time.

ARRI and Sony seem have an iron fist on that market.

If were a Nikon exec I'd forget the Hollywood market altogether and focus 100% on the influencer kids with some new devices to make the brand cool again and throw a bone to the diehard photogs with new and improved video features in their MILCs.

I agree on the focus on the influencer kids.

In terms of if Nikon should let RED die, that's a tough call.  They could retain the R&D benefits of the RED team (which is likely to have a very very different internal culture to the rest of Nikon and would be best kept separated) but without the RED guys talking directly to folks in Hollywood their ability to do R&D would be drastically reduced.

RED definitely are a minor player, but they're not without any contacts.

[EduPortas]

9 hours ago, kye said:

I agree on the focus on the influencer kids.

In terms of if Nikon should let RED die, that's a tough call.  They could retain the R&D benefits of the RED team (which is likely to have a very very different internal culture to the rest of Nikon and would be best kept separated) but without the RED guys talking directly to folks in Hollywood their ability to do R&D would be drastically reduced.

RED definitely are a minor player, but they're not without any contacts.

The plot thickens, my friends. Some Nikon excecs spoke to PetaPixel:

https://petapixel.com/2024/04/15/red-will-continue-to-support-canon-rf-but-nikon-is-considering-making-cine-optics/

In summary, they don't see themselves releasing a Nikon Z-mount RED camera in the near future.

So the writing is on the wall, IMO.

This all but assures they will slowly let RED cinema line dwindle away and introduce new gear with their Z-Mount the tech they adquiered from RED.

 

 

[Danyyyel]

4 hours ago, EduPortas said:

The plot thickens, my friends. Some Nikon excecs spoke to PetaPixel:

https://petapixel.com/2024/04/15/red-will-continue-to-support-canon-rf-but-nikon-is-considering-making-cine-optics/

In summary, they don't see themselves releasing a Nikon Z-mount RED camera in the near future.

So the writing is on the wall, IMO.

This all but assures they will slowly let RED cinema line dwindle away and introduce new gear with their Z-Mount the tech they adquiered from RED.

 

 

What a bunch of non sense from people like you. Nikon has their own tech, the Z9 is superior to the Sony Burano 30k camera!!! They could build a Burano killer tomorrow with the z9 internals, they don't absolutely need RED tech if they wanted to go into the video camera world. But can you show me any of Canon, Panasonic or Fuji with even a tenth of that resumé https://www.red.com/shot-on-red. Please show us, I am sure Canon has be used on the likes of blockbusters like Dr strange, Spiderman, Aquaman, Guardian of the Galaxy, The Suicide SQUAD, The flash and some of the biggest TV shows like the Witcher etc etc. 

I will wait, to think their are some people who think a company will throw away such a legacy is just dumb. If you don't even know the basic of branding, why Honda who sells Civics, invested billions on an F1 engine, or Renaud doing the same while they sell Clio's. 

The people from Nikon have said not to expect anything Tomorrow, not because imbecile are going to say they will kill RED, but because it takes time. RED just released a 8k 120fps global shutter camera, vista vision camera. What do you think, they are selling Canon rebel 50, you think release cameras every six months. 

[EduPortas]

1 hour ago, Danyyyel said:

What a bunch of non sense from people like you. Nikon has their own tech, the Z9 is superior to the Sony Burano 30k camera!!! They could build a Burano killer tomorrow with the z9 internals, they don't absolutely need RED tech if they wanted to go into the video camera world. But can you show me any of Canon, Panasonic or Fuji with even a tenth of that resumé https://www.red.com/shot-on-red. Please show us, I am sure Canon has be used on the likes of blockbusters like Dr strange, Spiderman, Aquaman, Guardian of the Galaxy, The Suicide SQUAD, The flash and some of the biggest TV shows like the Witcher etc etc. 

I will wait, to think their are some people who think a company will throw away such a legacy is just dumb. If you don't even know the basic of branding, why Honda who sells Civics, invested billions on an F1 engine, or Renaud doing the same while they sell Clio's. 

The people from Nikon have said not to expect anything Tomorrow, not because imbecile are going to say they will kill RED, but because it takes time. RED just released a 8k 120fps global shutter camera, vista vision camera. What do you think, they are selling Canon rebel 50, you think release cameras every six months. 

RED wil be integrated and the brand will disappear, friend. Don't be gullible.

That's how Japanese companies go about these things. You may like it no, but that's the way it works.

NIKON just fortified their brand with some cool video features. They don't NEED Red.

Don't believe me?

The Chief Design Officer at RED for 18 years just resigned.  He knows practically everyone will be let go once Nikon absorbs their tech-savvy and slowly let the RED brand rot.

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/04/16/matthew-tremblay-chief-design-officer-red-digital-cinema-resigns/

As I said, Nikon has a long history as a brand and wants to capitalize on a new market (deep pocket influencers and some cinema buffs).

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

2 hours ago, Danyyyel said:

But can you show me any of Canon, Panasonic or Fuji with even a tenth of that resumé

Panasonic is the easiest of those.  The Varicam has been used on a bunch of stuff.
https://pro-av.panasonic.net/en/cinema_camera_varicam_eva/shot_on/

As far as Canon...
https://shotonwhat.com/cameras/canon-eos-c500-camera

https://shotonwhat.com/cameras/canon-eos-c300-camera

Keep in mind that the C500 series and C300 series weren't the A camera on most/all of the things listed, but neither was the RED on several of the films that you called out.  

I doubt that Fuji cameras have been used on a lot of major Hollywood productions.  To the best of my knowledge, Fuji don't make ANY cinema cameras.  I'd be shocked, though, if Fuji's excellent cinema lenses hadn't made their way into at least a handful.

Anyway.  Take a deep breath.  In the end, it doesn't matter even a little bit to any of us if NIkon retire the RED brand - not unless you own stock in Nikon and are worried about it would do to your investment.  😉

FWIW, the most typical/obvious thing here is that Nikon will continue to operate RED as a separate business unit for a time, likely attaching Nikon to the RED name somehow - "RED by Nikon" or "Nikon RED" or something like that.  Eventually, the integration will get tighter and current RED engineers will be replaced by Nikon engineers and the naming will change - "The Nikon RED Z1" or something like that.  Eventually, RED will look just like any other business unit of Nikon, but continue to make cinema-focused cameras and nobody will care much about whether they keep or lose the name.

 

[mercer]

It would be utterly ridiculous for Nikon to absorb or abolish the Red brand, especially since they aren't natural competitors. They purchased Red for the Redcode patent so they didn't have to license compressed raw from Red or ticoRaw.

It's really that simple.

If they use the Red branding in any future Nikon release, who knows. If they decide to venture into the low tier cinema camera market, it will involve the Komodo and they won't change the name of it other than add Nikon to it somewhere. Maybe... Nikon CineRed Komodo. They won't take the Red name away, they'll just add Nikon. 

[EduPortas]

28 minutes ago, mercer said:

It would be utterly ridiculous for Nikon to absorb or abolish the Red brand, especially since they aren't natural competitors. They purchased Red for the Redcode patent so they didn't have to license compressed raw from Red or ticoRaw.

It's really that simple.

If they use the Red branding in any future Nikon release, who knows. If they decide to venture into the low tier cinema camera market, it will involve the Komodo and they won't change the name of it other than add Nikon to it somewhere. Maybe... Nikon CineRed Komodo. They won't take the Red name away, they'll just add Nikon. 

Not likely.

Japanese companies are famous for their anti-gaijin philosophy.

They don't like foreign company work-cultures. It's not their style of business.

RED has some good products but Nikon will always see them as a "lesser" brand, not comparable in pedigree to them or Canon.

Give it a two years and they'll dismantle the entire thing or suffer administrative chaos. They'll dump 99.9% of the work force in RED once they show them their big-brain stuff. After that, it's one cut after another to keep their stockholders happy and fortify the Nikon--not RED--brand.

 

[mercer]

1 hour ago, EduPortas said:

Not likely.

Japanese companies are famous for their anti-gaijin philosophy.

They don't like foreign company work-cultures. It's not their style of business.

RED has some good products but Nikon will always see them as a "lesser" brand, not comparable in pedigree to them or Canon.

Give it a two years and they'll dismantle the entire thing or suffer administrative chaos. They'll dump 99.9% of the work force in RED once they show them their big-brain stuff. After that, it's one cut after another to keep their stockholders happy and fortify the Nikon--not RED--brand.

 

Doubtful.

Antiquated cultural practices aside, Nikon didn't need Red to create a lower tiered cinema camera. They bought a patent and a brand. A brand with a VERY loyal following in the lower tier and a loyal user base in the higher tier, Hollywood, cinematography world.

If they aren't, at all, interested in the brand, then they spent hundred of millions of dollars for a patent. Red doesn't make lower tiered cameras, but they can help each other.

If Nikon eventually dismantles the Red brand, it won't be in 2 years. Maybe in a decade after they gain the trust and reputation with the Red loyal user base and the Hollywood cinematography community.

I do think the Komodo could bridge the gap between Red and Nikon, though... with the OG Komodo being more Nikon with a new composite, user friendly design and the Komodo X staying truer to the Red brand.

But I think Nikon will use a "powered by Red" moniker, or something like that, in their higher tiered MILCs.

 

[EduPortas]

11 minutes ago, mercer said:

Doubtful.

Antiquated cultural practices aside, Nikon didn't need Red to create a lower tiered cinema camera. They bought a patent and a brand. A brand with a VERY loyal following in the lower tier and a loyal user base in the higher tier, Hollywood, cinematography world.

If they aren't, at all, interested in the brand, then they spent hundred of millions of dollars for a patent. Red doesn't make lower tiered cameras, but they can help each other.

If Nikon eventually dismantles the Red brand, it won't be in 2 years. Maybe in a decade after they gain the trust and reputation with the Red loyal user base and the Hollywood cinematography community.

I do think the Komodo could bridge the gap between Red and Nikon, though... with the OG Komodo being more Nikon with a new composite, user friendly design and the Komodo X staying truer to the Red brand.

But I think Nikon will use a "powered by Red" moniker, or something like that, in their higher tiered MILCs.

 

 

They bought RED bc of their tech, not their brand recognition. And the whole lawsuit entanglement, obviously.

I HIGHLY doubt they will juggle the Nikon brand with all its complexity AND a cinema line of cameras. 

That won't look right to investors. Nikon has been ruthless the last couple of years in trimming the fat. They finally made some gains bc the pushed new consumers upstream with the Z-Line. 

No way they'll let competitors (Canon in particular) use a Red camera with a Canon lens now. That's out the window ASAP.

On the contrary: they'll fortify the Z-Line and keep new customers there. It's all about the Z-Line and a new video branch in that ecosystem.

[mercer]

38 minutes ago, EduPortas said:

 

They bought RED bc of their tech, not their brand recognition. And the whole lawsuit entanglement, obviously.

I HIGHLY doubt they will juggle the Nikon brand with all its complexity AND a cinema line of cameras. 

That won't look right to investors. Nikon has been ruthless the last couple of years in trimming the fat. They finally made some gains bc the pushed new consumers upstream with the Z-Line. 

No way they'll let competitors (Canon in particular) use a Red camera with a Canon lens now. That's out the window ASAP.

On the contrary: they'll fortify the Z-Line and keep new customers there. It's all about the Z-Line and a new video branch in that ecosystem.

I agree the lawsuit and the patent for Redcode was probably the driving force, but they didn't spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy Red solely for the patent. They could have licensed it for 2 decades and developed their own cine line of cameras and lenses for less than that.

Other than the RedCode patent... what other tech does Red have?

They have an established brand in the high end cinema space and a lower tiered customer base that will pay top dollar to be a part of that brand.

Don't get me wrong, I love photographic history and I am a huge fan of Nikon. I own a small set of ai-s lenses and a small set of scalloped ringed non-ai lenses with the "C" coating. They're obviously one of the greatest photographic companies in history with an amazing lineage... in the photographic world. Until very recently, their video capabilities were lacking. It will take a while for them to gel with a lot of cinematographers... they'll just use Arri cameras instead.

Then again... I reserve the right to be completely wrong. 

[IronFilm]

16 hours ago, EduPortas said:

In summary, they don't see themselves releasing a Nikon Z-mount RED camera in the near future.

What the... HECK????

That makes no sense at all, unless they're planning to just let RED slowly die??

But when I read the article myself, I see it in a completely different manner:

1) will take time to integrate Nikon and RED together, might be years. There is a lot to do! So with all the other stuff on their plate, perhaps a Z Mount Cinema Camera won't be the first thing out the gate, maybe it will be one more cycle down the road. (maybe they want to make a BIG impact with it when they release it? Have awesome AF with RED)

2) they want to keep their loyal RED customers happy during these turbulent times, so "for now" they'll reassure them by keeping RF mount 

7 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

I doubt that Fuji cameras have been used on a lot of major Hollywood productions.  To the best of my knowledge, Fuji don't make ANY cinema cameras.  I'd be shocked, though, if Fuji's excellent cinema lenses hadn't made their way into at least a handful.

There is a very cool mod for a Fujifilm camera however:

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/04/16/old-fast-glass-ofg-custom-65-rehoused-fujifilm-gfx-100-ii-cinema-camera/ 

 

[ND64]

8 hours ago, EduPortas said:

The Chief Design Officer at RED for 18 years just resigned.

Was this guy responsible for the genius idea of putting a CFE card inside Red mini mag and charge 10x? 

[MrSMW]

My prediction is:

1: Add 8k RED raw to high end MILC's such as the Z9 or its successor. 6k to lower tier stuff such as the Z6 line...

2: Develop a cine line of their own in tandem with a RED line but a few differences, a bit like Lumix SL2 and Leica S1R (see what I did there?) ie, just boxed and badged slightly differently.

3: The next RED camera will have Z Mount as will any/all future RED cameras and RF for one final fling...if at all, before cutting Canon completely out of the loop.

Summary:

Nikon have come back strong in the last couple of years, especially with the Z9, Z8, Zf and probably Z6iii and I expect that market share and their image to continue to improve.

I expect them to push now into the video/cine market much more than they have with just hybrid MILC cameras and develop a dedicated cine line akin to Sony, so FX3, FX6, FX9, Burano... 

The appeal and their market will be to 'prosumers', hybrid event shooter people like me, indie filmmakers and the commercial market plus maybe some 'Hollywood' budget level productions, but won't oust Arri or Sony from that perch, ie, will be niche in that regard.

Nothing else makes any sense to me.

But what do I know, I ain't exactly Quasimodo. (Got to be a boxing fan to get that one) 😜

[eatstoomuchjam]

7 hours ago, IronFilm said:

There is a very cool mod for a Fujifilm camera however:

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/04/16/old-fast-glass-ofg-custom-65-rehoused-fujifilm-gfx-100-ii-cinema-camera/ 

 

Indeed there is!  They were smart to choose the Z Cam EVF for it so they won't need a separate wireless transmitter (though there will be a bit of lag with the Ninja in-between).
That one's been discussed here, I think.  Should fit in a niche somewhere, though with DSMC2 VV cameras selling and renting at pretty reasonable prices, I'm not sure what that niche might be.  😅

[EduPortas]

13 hours ago, mercer said:

I agree the lawsuit and the patent for Redcode was probably the driving force, but they didn't spend hundreds of millions of dollars to buy Red solely for the patent. They could have licensed it for 2 decades and developed their own cine line of cameras and lenses for less than that.

Other than the RedCode patent... what other tech does Red have?

They have an established brand in the high end cinema space and a lower tiered customer base that will pay top dollar to be a part of that brand.

Don't get me wrong, I love photographic history and I am a huge fan of Nikon. I own a small set of ai-s lenses and a small set of scalloped ringed non-ai lenses with the "C" coating. They're obviously one of the greatest photographic companies in history with an amazing lineage... in the photographic world. Until very recently, their video capabilities were lacking. It will take a while for them to gel with a lot of cinematographers... they'll just use Arri cameras instead.

Then again... I reserve the right to be completely wrong. 

Yep, the future will bring really interesting things to the video world.

Hopefully, with less expensive gear.