Color - SOOC vs. LUTs/Grading

[KnightsFan]

I see your point @SRV1981about wanting good SOOC color and not wanting detailed info about post color correction.

But kye's primary point that color is not about the camera is correct.

3 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

im just curious about skintones SOOC and how they’re achieved easily. No clue what makeup has to do with anything for the situation I asked. 

Makeup changes people's skintones to make them more pleasing, both in real life and on camera. Makeup will do more for your image than camera brand. A simple layer of anti-sweat makeup (I don't know the proper name, but our makeup person used it on some shoots) doesn't change hue, but reduces specular highlights, and immediately makes skin look better*. It's an effect which is impossible SOOC from any brand without makeup.

(*And when I say "better" that's content-dependent. If you want a shiny, sweaty face in a horror movie that's of course a separate style of makeup)

If you really want info on SOOC color from different cameras, it might help to describe exactly what you are looking for, perhaps using existing movies as examples. Because all modern cameras are good in their own way, so whether you like the creative options from Panasonic vs Canon is all about your creative intent. If you want general, all purpose good color, then I don't believe there is any mainstream brand that is better than others at this time.

[SRV1981]

9 minutes ago, KnightsFan said:

I see your point @SRV1981about wanting good SOOC color and not wanting detailed info about post color correction.

But kye's primary point that color is not about the camera is correct.

Makeup changes people's skintones to make them more pleasing, both in real life and on camera. Makeup will do more for your image than camera brand. A simple layer of anti-sweat makeup (I don't know the proper name, but our makeup person used it on some shoots) doesn't change hue, but reduces specular highlights, and immediately makes skin look better*. It's an effect which is impossible SOOC from any brand without makeup.

(*And when I say "better" that's content-dependent. If you want a shiny, sweaty face in a horror movie that's of course a separate style of makeup)

If you really want info on SOOC color from different cameras, it might help to describe exactly what you are looking for, perhaps using existing movies as examples. Because all modern cameras are good in their own way, so whether you like the creative options from Panasonic vs Canon is all about your creative intent. If you want general, all purpose good color, then I don't believe there is any mainstream brand that is better than others at this time.

Yes , fair points. But filming not narrative stuff I’m not concerned about makeup 😆. 
 

that said, I saw Dehancer has a plugin for FCP and that may do the trick and make camera brand less of an issues so long as a baseline DR is present and AF is good enough 

[SRV1981]

Love this movie: 

Shot on DJI ronin 4d  pretty great image  

price and size are dealbreakers 

[ghostwind]

35 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

Love this movie: 

Shot on DJI ronin 4d  pretty great image  

price and size are dealbreakers 

Mostly shot on  Sony Venice with the 4D as a B cam at times. Not that it matters at all with colors and the main point here.

[ac6000cw]

54 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

But filming not narrative stuff I’m not concerned about makeup 😆. 

But what kind of 'non narrative stuff'?

To try and help, we need an idea of what you often film and hence what sort of colours are the important ones to get right.

For example, if it's landscapes or wildlife then human skin tones are almost irrelevant, but correctly reproducing the range of greens, blues, browns, yellows and highly saturated, bright, flower colours etc. is important (and it isn't always easy to get a good overall colour balance/compromise in that situation).

[KnightsFan]

1 hour ago, SRV1981 said:

Shot on DJI ronin 4d  pretty great image  

price and size are dealbreakers

...with a lot of makeup, lighting, and color correction.

1 hour ago, SRV1981 said:

Yes , fair points. But filming not narrative stuff I’m not concerned about makeup 😆.

Definitely true, which is why I also said that I don't believe any mainstream brand is objectively better than others. Most of the people posting here have said that in one way or another.

[ac6000cw]

21 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

that said, I saw Dehancer has a plugin for FCP and that may do the trick and make camera brand less of an issues so long as a baseline DR is present and AF is good enough 

If you want useable SOOC video that looks reasonable when played directly, but which has high DR for grading if you want to, you could try shooting in 10-bit HLG?

It's a compromise format that is designed to provide decent looking video on non-HDR displays, and full HDR on HDR-capable displays - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_log–gamma . Note it uses Rec. 2020 colour space/gamut, so the colours will be distorted to some extent on a Rec. 709 display.

KnightsFan said: 

Quote

The XT3 was great, but if I recall correctly there were issues with FLog in Resolve for a while, so I almost always used HLG and was happy with it.

...and I've also tried grading HLG (from my OM-1) and found it OK.

I think Log is better for grading (than HLG), but Log is not very usable as SOOC video (unless you really like watching low-contrast/saturation video!).

[ac6000cw]

...or you could just create your own flat/pseudo log transfer characteristic in-camera by adjusting a standard picture profile (e.g. contrast, saturation, highlight/shadow curves) to give you a compromise SOOC/gradable format that fits your needs?

[SRV1981]

1 hour ago, ac6000cw said:

...or you could just create your own flat/pseudo log transfer characteristic in-camera by adjusting a standard picture profile (e.g. contrast, saturation, highlight/shadow curves) to give you a compromise SOOC/gradable format that fits your needs?

Great problem solving thinking guys. 
 

so my next question is, has anyone found a way to shape Sony images to resemble the skintones that clog2 provides in the c70? I find those to be the most pleasing images I’ve seen in awhile. 

[kye]

10 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

If you want useable SOOC video that looks reasonable when played directly, but which has high DR for grading if you want to, you could try shooting in 10-bit HLG?

It's a compromise format that is designed to provide decent looking video on non-HDR displays, and full HDR on HDR-capable displays - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_log–gamma . Note it uses Rec. 2020 colour space/gamut, so the colours will be distorted to some extent on a Rec. 709 display.

KnightsFan said: 

...and I've also tried grading HLG (from my OM-1) and found it OK.

I think Log is better for grading (than HLG), but Log is not very usable as SOOC video (unless you really like watching low-contrast/saturation video!).

I actually prefer HLG to a standard LOG profile.

The reason is that HLG has rec709 levels of saturation and the main part of the image (everything below about 50%) and so when turning the image back into a 709 image from HLG you're not stretching out tiny differences in a flat LOG profile.

The disadvantage of HLG in this sense would be the clipping of colours, but HLG retains the full DR of the camera so it will only clip on very very saturated colours and those will mostly be clipped due to being too hot (e.g. tail-lights) which would be clipped either way.

[kye]

9 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

so my next question is, has anyone found a way to shape Sony images to resemble the skintones that clog2 provides in the c70? I find those to be the most pleasing images I’ve seen in awhile. 

Can you provide an example of each?

[ac6000cw]

7 hours ago, kye said:

I actually prefer HLG to a standard LOG profile.

The reason is that HLG has rec709 levels of saturation and the main part of the image (everything below about 50%) and so when turning the image back into a 709 image from HLG you're not stretching out tiny differences in a flat LOG profile.

The disadvantage of HLG in this sense would be the clipping of colours, but HLG retains the full DR of the camera so it will only clip on very very saturated colours and those will mostly be clipped due to being too hot (e.g. tail-lights) which would be clipped either way.

I should have qualified my comment to say that it only related to my personal preference using 10-bit HLG and OMLog400 from the OM-1 - I've never used HLG or Log from other cameras. I'd actually prefer to shoot in a modified version of one of the standard picture profiles on the OM-1, but they are not available in 10-bit mode - HLG or Log are the only choices.

It's interesting how different the log transfer curves can be on different brands and cameras (scroll down the pages to the step chart images) e.g.

OM-1 - https://www.optyczne.pl/59.3-Inne_testy-OM_System_OM-1_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html

GH6 - https://www.optyczne.pl/62.3-Inne_testy-Panasonic_Lumix_GH6_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html

A6700 - https://www.optyczne.pl/79.3-Inne_testy-Sony_A6700_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html

FX3 - https://www.optyczne.pl/46.3-Inne_testy-Sony_FX3_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html

R7 - https://www.optyczne.pl/65.3-Inne_testy-Canon_EOS_R7_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html

C70 - https://www.optyczne.pl/48.3-Inne_testy-Canon_EOS_C70_-_test_kamery_Użytkowanie.html

S5ii - https://www.optyczne.pl/70.3-Inne_testy-Panasonic_Lumix_S5_II_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html

XH2 - https://www.optyczne.pl/66.3-Inne_testy-Fujifilm_X-H2_-_test_trybu_filmowego_Użytkowanie.html

[PPNS]

22 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

Great problem solving thinking guys. 
 

so my next question is, has anyone found a way to shape Sony images to resemble the skintones that clog2 provides in the c70? I find those to be the most pleasing images I’ve seen in awhile. 

im going to be very honest, i think its crazy you can see the difference between cameras with their stock 709 lut. To me they all look samey, boring and bland.

[SRV1981]

5 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

It's interesting how different the log transfer curves can be on different brands and cam

Will check soon! Thanks 🙏 

 

1 hour ago, PPNS said:

me they all look samey, boring and bland

Under very clear differences and Fuji and canon have a much more appealing image. That said I show the clips to family or friends and they always pick canon then Fuji 

[PannySVHS]

I lost my thinking reading through the back and forth of this thread. It is headspinning. But it is the only active thread alive at the moment.😂

I will be very grateful when og poster will feel inspired enough to come to a decision of buying that personal camera for video or photo/video after a year long of searching and wondering.😂

Well, a bit offside, some 8bit 420 100mbps HD goodness, a teaser for a short I dped and codirected five years ago. Still not finished with the edit, though I had it finished at 80% five months after wrap. But I felt left all by myself. So the moving image has many more challenges to face than worrying about the differences in image quality of 10 bit dslms.😊 Grading is a bit off but I wouldnt even bother so much any more as most of the look is in the lighting, framing, setdesign anyway. Shot at 800 Iso, at around T2 and T2.8.

 

[kye]

2 hours ago, PPNS said:

im going to be very honest, i think its crazy you can see the difference between cameras with their stock 709 lut. To me they all look samey, boring and bland.

If you stare at them for hours and hours then you start to notice differences and they start to look normal.

That's how all the YT "cinematic" content now looks nothing like cinema.

I just watched Kill Bill 1 again, and yeah, it might as well be a different universe...

When the people who can create any image they like with virtually unlimited budget create images like these - contrasty and punchy and not sharp in the slightest, then the people who are pixel peeing the 6K cameras aren't even playing the same game.

[ac6000cw]

37 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

Under very clear differences and Fuji and canon have a much more appealing image. That said I show the clips to family or friends and they always pick canon then Fuji 

But how much of that is due to relatively small differences in brightness, contrast and saturation (all of which can be adjusted in post and usually in-camera by tweaking the picture profiles)?

We are all used to colours changing due to natural lighting variation, and most people are drawn to bright, colourful, vibrant scenes - which is why the 'standard' profile on cameras is often relatively high in contrast and saturation to produce 'punchy' looking stills and video.

When comparing cameras (if I'm thinking about buying one), I'm much more concerned about unnatural image distortions, like aliasing, moire (especially the false-colour variety), compression artefacts (e.g. banding and blockiness) and noise - because those can be distracting and not as easily dealt with later.

[PannySVHS]

6 minutes ago, kye said:

 then the people who are pixel peeing the 6K cameras aren't even playing the same game.

They are not even dreaming of the same game, nor the craft, the passion or the work connected to a 3min narrative or a short experimental visual etude.

[Clark Nikolai]

On 4/17/2024 at 5:35 AM, ac6000cw said:

If you want useable SOOC video that looks reasonable when played directly, but which has high DR for grading if you want to, you could try shooting in 10-bit HLG?

It's a compromise format that is designed to provide decent looking video on non-HDR displays, and full HDR on HDR-capable displays - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_log–gamma . Note it uses Rec. 2020 colour space/gamut, so the colours will be distorted to some extent on a Rec. 709 display.

Interesting. I've been working in REC709 for the sole reason is that I'm just not ready to jump in to REC2020 and the learning curve that it might have. I also might need a new monitor or something. At some point I'll learn all about it as it seems to have huge advantages over REC709 and I want to have them. (Another thing that I want to one day learn about is ACES, another big scary thing.)

My D16 has a colour space that is like HLG called Bolex Wide Gamut. It keeps the full dynamic range of the image but isn't flat looking like Log would be so is watchable even before using a LUT or something. Here's a white paper about it.

https://digitalbolex.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Bolex_Log_Bolex_Gamut_TechSum.pdf

 

 

[SRV1981]

2 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I will be very grateful when og poster will feel inspired enough to come to a decision of buying that personal camera for video or photo/video after a year long of searching and wondering.

you must be fun at parties 😉 - i'm not purchasing anything i enjoy discussing tech - i also play guitar and have been in bands - i enjoy discussing amp modeling but am not purchasing it.  Don't get so butt hurt 😉

 

2 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

Shot at 800 Iso, at around T2 and T2.8.

Looks good! Keep at it, man!

2 hours ago, kye said:

When the people who can create any image they like with virtually unlimited budget create images like these - contrasty and punchy and not sharp in the slightest, then the people who are pixel peeing the 6K cameras aren't even playing the same game.

makes sense when you decouple that from the original intent of the thread - minimal processing/grading or even SOOC. 

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

But how much of that is due to relatively small differences in brightness, contrast and saturation (all of which can be adjusted in post and usually in-camera by tweaking the picture profiles)?

Great question! I don't know but there are appreciable differences which is logical when you factor the dynamic relationship between varying sensors and processors, to assume they produce the same image and tangentially discuss lighting and makeup is besides the point.  There's a reason Canon was toted as the king of color for a long time, and Fuji for their stylized looks.

 

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

'm much more concerned about unnatural image distortions, like aliasing, moire (especially the false-colour variety), compression artefacts (e.g. banding and blockiness) and noise - because those can be distracting and not as easily dealt with later.

That's fair - have you noticed a brand that is putting out improvements in these areas that's caught your attention in the current market?