Color - SOOC vs. LUTs/Grading

[SRV1981]

Instead, people respond to posts that weren't written and proselytize and talk down.  It's pretty pathetic.   

[eatstoomuchjam]

One of the reasons that people are getting frustrated is that you're "asking basic questions," but then basically ignoring a lot of the answers.  It's like you keep asking what saw makes the best cabinets.  When people tell you that you need more than a saw, you start asking people to compare brands of saws.  

Which cameras has the best color and in-camera noise reduction?  All of them.  Also, none of them.  Go to NAB and ask 100 people on the floor.  Every one of them will be completely correct.  Every one of them will be completely incorrect.  How do you know?  Ask almost any of the others.

It is also a bit frustrating that you are asking questions that seem like you are trying to choose which camera to buy and after you receive a bunch of answers, you shift your focus and start asking again.

If you want somebody to yell at you about which camera has the best colors, go to YouTube.  There are dozens of people shouting about how the camera that they bought is the best camera ever.  Then just try to ignore the other videos from all the people saying it's the worst camera ever.  Heck, there are already dozens of videos just about the Pyxis talking about how it's the best camera released in years or the most ho-hum camera announcement so far this year.  Bonus: almost none of the people with those videos has even seen a Pyxis in person, much less actually shot with one.

[ac6000cw]

2 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Heck, there are already dozens of videos just about the Pyxis talking about how it's the best camera released in years or the most ho-hum camera announcement so far this year.  Bonus: almost none of the people with those videos has even seen a Pyxis in person, much less actually shot with one.

...and if they had picked one up and shot with it, they might like or dislike it for reasons unrelated to the video it can produce (like where the buttons are, how the menus work, battery life, monitoring options etc.).

[mercer]

To be fair, I vaguely remember the OP stating at some point that he/she likes to have discussions about gear. And let's be honest, this forum is primarily a gear forum. Perhaps the OP should mention that this discussion isn't necessarily about a decision he's currently planning on making and instead it's about learning and gathering information.

With that said, @kye has a fair point. These cameras are only tools for creative endeavors. These cameras will not make the film or  color grade your film or make your film good. At the end of the day, story is king.

I would suggest to the OP that they take some time and go back and look what people were creating when the DSLR revolution began. Look at t2i and GH2 videos to see what was possible with limited resolution, DR and resources.

[mercer]

Whenever I start thinking about the beginning of the DSLR revolution or the Digital Revolution, I take my own advice and go back to look at some old videos that I love from those forgotten cameras.

This first round of films, from Kendy Ty and his t2i, I have linked to countless times, years ago, but I think they could be helpful or relevant to the OP's topic...

If I remember correctly, he used the t2i and the old Sigma 30mm 1.4. I believe he even created his own picture profile, in camera, for his earlier films.

Like so many others, he eventually moved onto a Sony 4K camera, but many people commented they preferred the look from his trusty, old t2i.

If there's a lesson here, it's simple... sometimes less is more. Sometimes the tool that gets the job done and is simple to work with, is better than wading through the minutiae of features and tech finding the best camera.

[PannySVHS]

I agree. His Sony work does not respond to me, neither in the edit, premise, lengthyness, choice of focal lengths, camera movement nor framing nor color palette and contrast. @mercer That Sigma 30mm is a thing I had been keeping in my mind. I am a sucker for 28mm on S35. Kendys Canon work was magic, his Sony uploads on his channel are video imo. Besides colour, movement, framing and lensing are not in the same league as his Canon library imho. I can relate to the impact of a camera on freewheeling video essay work. I still hold a G70 in high regard for the mojo it has in HD 24p. The only two pieces I shot with it are still oozing color magic and forced me to design my shots and movements instead of gimbleing through the world rather effortlessly. No effort means no magic in most of the instances.

[SRV1981]

3 hours ago, mercer said:

This first round of films, from Kendy Ty and his t2i,

The first few scenes on the train felt like a movie. Loved it! In another thread I bumped from 2015 where folks discussed cameras and color, as is my goal, some commented that as brands have moved to mirrorless they’re chasing resolution and in doing so neglecting color and overall image. Something to the effect that chasing greens versus other colors, has had a negative impact on the way color is rendered and that’s 9 years ago. Worth a review that thread. 
 

I originally curious about modern cameras that produce that movie look in the first video without lighting makeup etc. the skin tones and overall look felt less digital and more movie like. That’s what I was getting at with what brands are trying to achieve that ? What models most of us can purchase today gets us to that. 

[mercer]

6 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

The first few scenes on the train felt like a movie. Loved it! In another thread I bumped from 2015 where folks discussed cameras and color, as is my goal, some commented that as brands have moved to mirrorless they’re chasing resolution and in doing so neglecting color and overall image. Something to the effect that chasing greens versus other colors, has had a negative impact on the way color is rendered and that’s 9 years ago. Worth a review that thread. 
 

I originally curious about modern cameras that produce that movie look in the first video without lighting makeup etc. the skin tones and overall look felt less digital and more movie like. That’s what I was getting at with what brands are trying to achieve that ? What models most of us can purchase today gets us to that. 

Good points. I guess it depends on what you're planning on shooting, or do shoot? I am only interested in narrative filmmaking, so I have a specific look I like. It's definitely a filmic look. I've always said that most cameras from 10 years ago could "essentially" and convincingly achieve a 70s film look.

But the look of modern cinema isn't really close to a film look. It looks nice but it doesn't seem like they're trying to emulate that like the original Alexa attempted.

Even on this forum, you'll get dozens of opinions about it. Many want the most resolution they can get. I'm still happy with the 1080p magic lantern raw from my 5D3.

But I'm probably a weirdo, I'm seriously considering buying an old camcorder to get a specific "cinema" color filter that Canon had on their older models.

Back in the day, Canon was known to have the "best" color. The original Panasonic mirrorless cameras also had very nice color. Sony was considered the worst. Now with the different log profiles and color space transforms, any camera can be made to look good. But if you can find a camera with a good rec709 profile, that you like, why not? Log and CSTs and LUTs are great and some will help to eek out an extra stop or two of dynamic range, but in a lot of cases, you can get by with the 8-10 stops that rec709 offers.

Here's another film that I was highly impressed by shot on the OG BMPCC by a British brother team called Cosmos. What's interesting about this is that they were able to make a Hollywood looking film that was released in theaters. They also decided to shoot in ProRes LT to save storage space using only one lens for 90% of the film. It's amazing what you can accomplish if you try. It's not the tool, but the craftsman using it.

 

[mercer]

9 hours ago, PannySVHS said:

I agree. His Sony work does not respond to me, neither in the edit, premise, lengthyness, choice of focal lengths, camera movement nor framing nor color palette and contrast. @mercer That Sigma 30mm is a thing I had been keeping in my mind. I am a sucker for 28mm on S35. Kendys Canon work was magic, his Sony uploads on his channel are video imo. Besides colour, movement, framing and lensing are not in the same league as his Canon library imho. I can relate to the impact of a camera on freewheeling video essay work. I still hold a G70 in high regard for the mojo it has in HD 24p. The only two pieces I shot with it are still oozing color magic and forced me to design my shots and movements instead of gimbleing through the world rather effortlessly. No effort means no magic in most of the instances.

Agreed. I know you were never too much of a Canon guy, but I swear that the ProLost Flat settings always gave me a nice look with minimal effort in post. It wasn't until I "understood" more about color grading and LUTs did I start getting looks I didn't like.

As you probably remember, I have owned a lot of cameras in my day... 4K, 1080p, 6K... but other than my 5D3 (and the FP... kinda) my two favorite cameras were my old eos-m, even with the original firmware and the Nikon D5500... it was as small as a mirrorless and the Nikon Flat profile was sooo nice to work with... all it needed was a little contrast and some selective saturation.

[mercer]

And I'd be remiss if I didn't post this video from a British filmmaker named Paul Cook. It was the video that made me buy my 5D3 and install ML Raw on it and never look back. After 7 years, I'm still chasing what he was able to capture in an afternoon...

 

[SRV1981]

1 hour ago, mercer said:

And I'd be remiss if I didn't post this video from a British filmmaker named Paul Cook. It was the video that made me buy my 5D3 and install ML Raw on it and never look back. After 7 years, I'm still chasing what he was able to capture in an afternoon...

 

I remember this ! it was posted here years ago! I remember trying ML and was blown away how good it looked but how hard it was to use. I think the fx3/r5c can give those looks now. 

[SRV1981]

picked c70 every time they had the person shown. I guess I like those tones. Does anyone agree?

[mercer]

9 minutes ago, SRV1981 said:

I remember this ! it was posted here years ago! I remember trying ML and was blown away how good it looked but how hard it was to use. I think the fx3/r5c can give those looks now. 

I'm sure I posted it back then too. ML Raw is easy on the 5D3 due to dual card slots and its stability.

I'm sure the FX3 and R5C could get close... minus the 14bit color... but they're $3500 cameras and I already own the 5D3. 

[SRV1981]

19 minutes ago, mercer said:

I'm sure I posted it back then too. ML Raw is easy on the 5D3 due to dual card slots and its stability.

I'm sure the FX3 and R5C could get close... minus the 14bit color... but they're $3500 cameras and I already own the 5D3. 

Yes good points. 
 

this in a small body would be amazing:

 

 

[mercer]

2 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

picked c70 every time they had the person shown. I guess I like those tones. Does anyone agree?

Both of those cameras are great, you should get one. What are you shooting with now?

[ac6000cw]

7 hours ago, mercer said:

And I'd be remiss if I didn't post this video from a British filmmaker named Paul Cook. It was the video that made me buy my 5D3 and install ML Raw on it and never look back. After 7 years, I'm still chasing what he was able to capture in an afternoon...

 

I really dislike the colour grade in that video - low-contrast and de-saturated with (to me) a grey-green cast. It sucks all the life out of the event it's recording... How do you judge the colour capability of the camera itself from that?

(I know the heritage railway and the location it was filmed at quite well).

Not my photo and a different location, but this is what the 'Mayflower' locomotive looked like in reality):

( From emdjt42 on Flickr )

[mercer]

57 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

I really dislike the colour grade in that video - low-contrast and de-saturated with (to me) a grey-green cast. It sucks all the life out of the event it's recording... How do you judge the colour capability of the camera itself from that?

(I know the heritage railway and the location it was filmed at quite well).

Not my photo and a different location, but this is what the 'Mayflower' locomotive looked like in reality):

( From emdjt42 on Flickr )

🤷‍♂️ 

It looks great to me. I'm not looking for an image that looks exactly like reality. It's definitely desaturated, but I don't agree that it's low contrast.

No offense to the photographer of that shot, but that looks like it could have been shot with any standard profile from a camcorder in auto mode.

As far as... how can I judge the image... look at the skin tones... the weight of the image. It looks and feels like a real movie.

[SRV1981]

6 hours ago, mercer said:

Both of those cameras are great, you should get one. What are you shooting with now?

iPhone 14 Pro and Ricoh GRIIIx. Not much currently would motivate me into a system. The c70 and mage would be perfect but the body is way too large for what I’d want. But it’s interesting to see that different companies focus on different aspects of image - the c70 looks closer to the desirable images of top cinema cameras to my eyes. Something many have said who work in the industry is that the Sony mirrorless has great tech but look “clinical.”  Although I’ve seen some folks create lovely images with them - but the work to get there is much more than on cinema cameras etc. a few colorists on Reddit’s sub noted that canon was a bit easier to work with but Sony came to them looking pretty ugly and took more time - digital was the word they used. 

[eatstoomuchjam]

10 hours ago, SRV1981 said:

picked c70 every time they had the person shown. I guess I like those tones. Does anyone agree?

I debated between the two last year and went with the C70.  It's my go-to A camera these days with the R5 as B camera.  Without watching that video, I'd guess that the image on the right is the C70 (more highlight and shadow detail).

[eatstoomuchjam]

(Looks like I was wrong!  So there you go - as others have said in this thread, whatever the specs on paper, the grade afterward is even more important 🙂 )