Emanuel Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 I think this was pretty predictable since Ace Pro had arrived (one of my favs along Osmo Pocket + One X2, yes, and now to replace it with this upgrade): https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/promotion/19087/exclusive-insta360-camera-unveiling.html832 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted April 16 Author Share Posted April 16 Arrived: https://www.insta360.com/product/insta360-x4#x4_compare Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eatstoomuchjam Posted April 16 Share Posted April 16 I hope they bring a few of the software features to the RS 1" 360 camera. It looks like the X4 has improved details over the 1", but none of it looked like enough that I'd run out to spend a few hundred bucks on yet another camera, especially since the 1" is still better in low light. Most of the other stuff that I saw in comparisons seemed like it would be solved by tweaking levels or contrast in post. If selfie sticks weren't so universally looked down on, Insta360's combo of 360 camera + great studio software should make them the darlings of the vlog community. Not much need to even pay any attention to where the camera is or if you're in frame - and if something interesting happens, no need to do anything with the camera. Just comment on it so you know when to turn the automatic tracker off in post. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 I just sold my trusted 2 years old 1 inch 360 (I still have 2 normal 1 inch + dual lens) and ordered the X4 for the same price. From the paid "reviews" it seems that the X4 has more details and less artifacts, the biggest issue I have with the 1 inch but without trying myself I don't trust to much these reviews. Lowlight I think they are all quite bad and not really usable, already skiing on north faces in shade in Alaska the 1 inch breaks apart compared to south faces in sunshine. 1 inch sun vs shade: The X4 is 20% lighter, smaller and better weatherproof so if it turns out to really deliver a bit better detail and less artifacts, I'm happy. I will let you know if it is really an improvement or not over the 1 inch. Ideally, they should do a X4 Pro with 8k and 2x 1 inch.... let's hope it comes in the future. eatstoomuchjam and Emanuel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 The first thing I checked? Quote MAX. VIDEO BITRATE. 200Mbps ....and the last thing I checked. I've posted practically the same thing on every one of these releases, but the principle remains. If you crop in to the image, like 99.99% of shots will be, then the resolution doesn't matter, the bitrate does. 8K at 200Mbps cropped to a 90 degree FOV (about a 24mm lens) is 2K at around 12Mbps. gt3rs and Emanuel 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 5 hours ago, kye said: The first thing I checked? ....and the last thing I checked. I've posted practically the same thing on every one of these releases, but the principle remains. If you crop in to the image, like 99.99% of shots will be, then the resolution doesn't matter, the bitrate does. 8K at 200Mbps cropped to a 90 degree FOV (about a 24mm lens) is 2K at around 12Mbps. Anyway @kye remember this time it's H.265... Without mention there are some inspiring/promising shots out there which looks to put it at the Ace Pro level, at least under sun light... Let alone some specific usage for certain purpose such as frame rate (4K100fps) this time under usable output coupled to different reframe possible options along the capability of introducing a few camera movements within the framing itself. Now at acceptable outcome? Many times we need some device doing it by itself 'cause you're simply operating something else. I guess overheating concerns are prone to be more of an issue (when you'll want to buy the new toy only for 8K or 4K 100fps) you can overcome though, with the purchase of two units anyway and yet try to play with 3D acquisition when that's not a trouble, isn't it? ;- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 I just got mine 1h ago, boy they were fast in delivering. I will go for an MTB ride in 1h and test it out a bit and report back. First thing I did is to set it to 8k 30, highbitrate and sharpens to low. eatstoomuchjam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 WOW Indeed! Nice to know : ) Please post your findings, thanks! I am in course for one or a couple of them... 38 minutes ago, gt3rs said: First thing I did is to set it to 8k 30, highbitrate and sharpens to low. Right, on the spot, who wants it for less (under the right settings), other than higher frame rate acquisition? Higher resolution is always useful not necessarily for delivery but for handling it before :- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 In good light the X4 is just on another planet compared to the 1 inch. Is not apple to apple as is the same location, mount but different time of the year but still I could never get such details from the 1 inch or the R. Just look at the mountains in the background and the detail on me.... Unprocessed screen grab from 8k 30, 200 mbits, sharpening low Processed X4 Processed 1 inch from 5.7 30 I will compare also in low light, but for a first quick look I feel they both look similarly bad 😉 Emanuel, kye and eatstoomuchjam 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 Indeed, looks like a game changer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted April 17 Author Share Posted April 17 For low light, there's the 8K output from Ace Pro, even though they usually don't recommend it, I do ; ) 8K acquisition helps ANY cinematic properties with detail, processing... without mention the fine grain which is always welcome to overcome the customary artifacts seen going along such tiny sensor size form factor devices ;- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted April 17 Share Posted April 17 8 hours ago, Emanuel said: Anyway @kye remember this time it's H.265... Without mention there are some inspiring/promising shots out there which looks to put it at the Ace Pro level, at least under sun light... Let alone some specific usage for certain purpose such as frame rate (4K100fps) this time under usable output coupled to different reframe possible options along the capability of introducing a few camera movements within the framing itself. Now at acceptable outcome? Many times we need some device doing it by itself 'cause you're simply operating something else. I guess overheating concerns are prone to be more of an issue (when you'll want to buy the new toy only for 8K or 4K 100fps) you can overcome though, with the purchase of two units anyway and yet try to play with 3D acquisition when that's not a trouble, isn't it? ;- ) Don't get me wrong, I WANT these things to be good. If they could make a 360 camera that was high-quality enough then it would be useful for filming in very busy situations and you could crop out the interesting moments in post. The issue is that even if they had 27K resolution, the fact they only have 200Mbps means that any crop that isn't an extreme wide angle just isn't good enough. I mean, 12Mbps of h265 is similar to 24Mbps of h264, but seriously... imagine that someone released a camera in 2024 that was 24Mbps! ....and if you want a camera angle tighter than that? You're practically pixel-peeping. I'm not even asking for much - V90 SD cards are common these days and they can write at 720Mbps. Having an EXTREME PRO mode in the camera that has a maxed out bitrate wouldn't be that hard - these things are premium products. Emanuel 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted April 18 Author Share Posted April 18 I don't doubt, mate, no worries @kye I understand you and even fully concur your concern for sure, well seen and said : ) However, what puzzles me is what I've seen it from these devices. There are surely limitations but looks like they actually shine for what they are. I usually divide between usable and unusable. This time 8K and 4K 100fps acquisition seem to me fairly usable under certain circumstances not for delivery at same resolution, of course ; ) When before only for internal consumption aka no professional use at all, no resolution is able to save the grace, as matter of fact :- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted April 18 Author Share Posted April 18 PS yet to you @kye... these toys must be seen as complementary tools, no other because it is what they are. Specialty capture devices. They don't replace anything but they can help when others don't or cannot. The point is to know if they are ready to couple with or not yet. I think they can do the trick already even though when they don't excel. Fair is fair : ) I haven't found replace for my One X2 either. Just 100% of the cases, no footage to use. I think this time the thing has reached a different level, not the optimal nor the sweet spot but enough to get the job done when needed under strict control, obviously :- ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Yes @Emanuel, but look at how you're talking about them... these words from you explain it well: they actually shine for what they are I usually divide between usable and unusable only for internal consumption aka no professional use at all these toys must be seen as complementary tools They don't replace anything etc. But let's look at these comments more deeply. Theme 1: They're toys If they had a serious codec then would they still be toys? I mean, in good light a small sensor camera is more than capable of creating professional images - lots of ENG cameras had VERY small sensors! Even if they released a PRO version with a CFExpress or SD UHS-III slot and could record 8K at 1,000Mbps... what would be left that would make it a toy and not a professional tool? Theme 2: They are just to add to the existing tools Let's imagine you're recording out in the real world and don't know where to point the camera because you don't know what will happen - what is the alternative to one of these? Option 1: Insta360 Pro 2 You can't realistically ask someone to carry a 1.5kg / 3.3lbs camera on a stick while they're actually doing things. So that's out. Option 2: Ask the person to carry a "normal" camera You can't realistically ask someone to be a cinematographer and aim a camera at what they're doing while they're actually doing something - plus you can't record the world and also their reaction to it at the same time. So that's out. Option 3: Use multiple camera-operators to walk in-front of the person This completely ruins any spontaneity of someone actually doing something out in the world, your fly-on-the-wall reality content just turned into a film set. So that's out. What else????? There aren't any other options to record content in the way that you can when you get someone to carry a 360 camera in one hand or strap it to their backpack or to their bike/scooter/etc and then just tell them to ignore it. By getting someone to hold the camera on a stick about eye level and a few feet in front of them, we can capture the situation the person is in, and also the person reacting to that situation, simultaneously. It's the perfect way to have a "fly-on-the-wall" perspective, only it's floating in-between the subject and the world, all in the form of a sausage on a stick which few people pay much attention to. If we had an invisible camera that could fly it wouldn't do a much better job than these things do. I genuinely believe these things are just a better codec away from being the main camera to record in some situations. They are an entirely new product category, and yet they're turned into toys because of a stupid design decision that limits any decent use in order to make them more usable for morons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 DR of course is not world leading.... In less-than-ideal light is not great, but I would say better than the 1 inch that is surprising. You can see from the motion blur that probably it was 1/60 or less (no ND of course), but still some details in me and the bike.. Compared to 1 inch: In quality is definitely a big step forward, I honestly did not expect this much. I think a combination of more pixel, double bitrate and improvement in processing made it possible. Here an iPhone 15 Pro Max 4k screen grab.... Emanuel, kye and eatstoomuchjam 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 Unfortunately, it is a consumer device. @kye I agree with you that they should do a pro model, ideally dual 1 inch, SD UHS-III, 800+ Mbits, 10 bit LOG and better DR. With the revival of VR (Vision Pro, Quest 3) there may be more demand for VR180 and 360 content that may push Insta to create a pro model and maybe even 180 3D one.... time will tell.... Anyway, finally there is a noticeable step forward in quality after years of stagnation.... kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted April 18 Share Posted April 18 1 hour ago, gt3rs said: DR of course is not world leading.... In less-than-ideal light is not great, but I would say better than the 1 inch that is surprising. You can see from the motion blur that probably it was 1/60 or less (no ND of course), but still some details in me and the bike.. Compared to 1 inch: In quality is definitely a big step forward, I honestly did not expect this much. I think a combination of more pixel, double bitrate and improvement in processing made it possible. Here an iPhone 15 Pro Max 4k screen grab.... Interesting comparisons and definitely a step up in quality. When used zoomed-out like this the image is quite good I think - it's very "action camera" but has nice clean colours etc. The DR wasn't bad either I didn't think. Maybe they'll be able to apply whatever improvements they've made to the X4 to the 1" model and it will be better again! 1 hour ago, gt3rs said: Unfortunately, it is a consumer device. @kye I agree with you that they should do a pro model, ideally dual 1 inch, SD UHS-III, 800+ Mbits, 10 bit LOG and better DR. With the revival of VR (Vision Pro, Quest 3) there may be more demand for VR180 and 360 content that may push Insta to create a pro model and maybe even 180 3D one.... time will tell.... Anyway, finally there is a noticeable step forward in quality after years of stagnation.... It was interesting looking at the stats for the Insta360 Pro 2, which uses "6 x MicroSD cards + 1 x Full SD card" so rather than have an expensive media setup they just went for lots in parallel. The "Bitrate per lens: Up to 120Mbps" so is practically around the 600-700Mbps (there would be some overlap between lenses so not all bitrate would go straight to the final image). Maybe a "Pro" model could be a compromise and have dual media slots, with 200-300Mbps being written to each card. That would be a good compromise. The fact that the image would be across multiple files shouldn't be too difficult to manage considering that these files need specific support to process the image anyway. You might be right about a renewed push to 360 VR and 3D 180 VR, and I have a vague recollection of camera models that could fold one camera around, so it could be a 360 VR or a 3D 180 VR camera depending on how you configured the lenses. Having two card slots with one per camera makes sense in that way too. The fact that the ONE RS was modular also indicates they might be open to such a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted April 20 Author Share Posted April 20 At times, people here and in other forums wonder about what this can have in common with cinema... Well, filmmaking is not only fancy outcome for sure and I give you now an example with the release of this feature film in the Japanese market and how BTS material can help making the trick happen... MAKE-BELIEVERS' BTS/making-of Imagine what that could happen for BTS stuff acquisition (because we need it for selling movies!) with a mere tool like this one -- as simple as this newly listed no-brainer buy: Is the only device we need? Of course, not! BTW don't try to mimic those close-up shots going so wider angle for sure... LOL : ) But in the end of this video, the YouTuber gives a fair idea how this is a mandatory toy or tool... Reframing, at the computational side of the things, creatives ones included, is not only the future but the current one now already. It will surely depend on the way you get your creativity fine. Don't count on less ; ) But it is here nowadays and there's no a unique reason to wait for something better to come no doubts, just not not yet available today as this one, at the sole range of your click ;- ) kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gt3rs Posted April 25 Share Posted April 25 I had X2, 1 inch 360 and still have One R 360. I did play a bit more with the X4 The good: - 8k is a very visible bump in quality compared to X3 and 1 inch. Still once reframed is not yet at single lens action cam level but is getting closer. Of course, it really depends on how much you zoom in while reframing. It is more detailed and less compression artifacts. Also, in 360 vr the quality bump is very evident. - operations and UI are snappier than previous models (other than stopping the recording that takes a lot, not sure why) - 5.7k at 60 it allows some slow-motion with X3 quality, in previous models the slowmo was just unusable. - one button operation is customizable so you can set the video mode, frame rate, etc... - battery seems to last a lot, even in 8k 30 - App and Studio are great and work as expected. Connecting the camera to the phone is super easy and always works. Why can't Canon copy them? The ok: - lens guards work ok, great way of mounting them, but is not a free lunch, they need to be super clean, and they still create wired flares. I will probably use mine only on really risky situation. But it is good that they are included. - audio seems a tad better - I don't see a big difference in lowlight compared to the 360 1 inch. They are both quite bad but the X4 is not worst imo that is surprising. - single lens mode allows you 4k 60fps but to be honest the quality gain compared to 8k reframed is not big enough, useful if you need 60fps or you don't want to post process. For example, for chest mount I prefer the reframed angle than single lens. - seems to tend to overexpose but you can set the EV so not a big issue. The bad: - no 10bit log - as for all previous models these type of camera scream for sunny bright days. I mostly using them while moving ski, mtb, horses, cars.... and as soon the light is not great stabilization and video quality suffers a lot. So it is a brilliant camera for sunny days only. - is heavier and bigger than the X3 or the One R + 360 module. - the form factor is perfect for selfie stick but not great for helmet mount. - has only a tripod hole, no gopro mount, it should have both. For action, mounting through the tripod hole will make the camera break in case of any impact where normally the gopro mount would give a bit saving the camera. You can use an adapter, but it makes it even taller. - apparently, every time you turn on the camera you need to re-pair the bluetooth mic. Btw why why and why DJI is disabling internal Mic 2 transmitter recording while connected via bluetooth?!? It would be such a clean solution record scratch over bluetooth (no receiver needed) and have the 32bit float on the transmitter. - external audio through receiver + cold shoe mount + usb adapter is a frankenmoster that is really not usable in action environment. All the YT reviver showing this setup as amazing it makes me cry.... Overall is the best 360 camera on the market by far, coming close to single lens action cam quality, below 2k usd. Finally, after years of stagnation, a tangible bump in quality. With the revival of AR/VR they should do a 180 3D model out this. Emanuel and kye 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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