Lumix S9

[ac6000cw]

7 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Honestly, I think Panasonic expected some grace for that 26mm pancake, but what likely happened was a delay or a problem with the 18-40 rather than a hiccup in the actual camera or category of camera.

I think that too, but I suspect Panasonic decided that it was more important to launch the S9 now (to some extent to ride the X100VI wave and pick up some sales from people who can't wait for one of those). The 26mm pancake feels to me like a 'we gotta have a really small lens, in a hurry, to sell or give away with the S9' rushed product - otherwise why would it be manual focus, given the target market? If it had been maybe F4 with AF, even if that meant it was a bit longer, I suspect the S9 launch YT videos might have been generally much more positive.

[John Matthews]

4 hours ago, kye said:

I've seen stranger things in the corporate world...

Still, if you think they're all organised and rational, think about how well the camera offerings seem to match consumer requirements! 🙂 

I think they often have the good information, but I also believe Panasonic is a company run by committee. I don't think there's one primary designer who's creating camera concepts nowadays, probably with a few exceptions. Companies like Pentax and Olympus had people like Yoshihisa Maitani. I think we can kiss those days goodbye. The results from those designers were probably hit and miss but, when they hit, they'd strike gold. Panasonic needs to have input from everyone under the sun and you get results like the GH4, coming from the GH3. I don't pretend to know the inner workings of any brand, but I imagine it's something of the sorts. So, why do they get it wrong? Some voices are louder than others is what I think.

When Steve Jobs was around, he was the loudest voice at Apple and you'd get the right product at the right time because he was an experienced genius. Tim Cook, as smart as he is, listens to the wrong people sometimes and you get some products that seem "out-of-sync" with the times.

Panasonic seems to chose not to develop to their own detriment. For example, someone with loud voice said that the point and shoot market was too hard to get back. And yet they don't have the foresight to understand people would still want a PAS experience. Fuji did and we got the X100 V and VI. Panasonic is seemingly slow and reactive, which is too bad. They need to find a better system somehow because Fuji is eating their lunch in the PAS market IMO, regardless of their savvy production knowhow. Besides, where in the HELL is a small rangefinder-style M43 camera with 10bit H.265 and Vlog with full sensor readout and a mic jack? How many years have we asked for that? It's getting embarrassing and sure hope someone at Panasonic is blushing at this point.

[IronFilm]

7 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

I think that too, but I suspect Panasonic decided that it was more important to launch the S9 now (to some extent to ride the X100VI wave and pick up some sales from people who can't wait for one of those). The 26mm pancake feels to me like a 'we gotta have a really small lens, in a hurry, to sell or give away with the S9' rushed product - otherwise why would it be manual focus, given the target market? If it had been maybe F4 with AF, even if that meant it was a bit longer, I suspect the S9 launch YT videos might have been generally much more positive.

Honestly I think sticking with the Panasonic Lumix S 50mm f/1.8 Lens as the "freebie / promotional lens" would have done far less harm to the S9 launch, than that f8 manual focus lens! Even though the 50mm is quite big, at least it wouldn't have generated so much negativity  being bundled with the S9. 

(although yeah, I think ideally Panasonic should develop a 45mm f2/8 lens that's very compact, or something like that)

5 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Panasonic needs to have input from everyone under the sun and you get results like the GH4, coming from the GH3. I don't pretend to know the inner workings of any brand, but I imagine it's something of the sorts. So, why do they get it wrong? Some voices are louder than others is what I think.

What was wrong with the GH4?? It was revolutionary for its time!

 

[John Matthews]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

What was wrong with the GH4?? It was revolutionary for its time!

 

Nothing. It is/was a great camera. Design by committee isn't necessarily bad, just different. 

[MrSMW]

3 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Honestly I think sticking with the Panasonic Lumix S 50mm f/1.8 Lens as the "freebie / promotional lens" would have done far less harm to the S9 launch, than that f8 manual focus lens! Even though the 50mm is quite big, at least it wouldn't have generated so much negativity  being bundled with the S9. 

Agree that the f8 manual lens is something of an abomination and did the launch no favours…but, this thing is being marketed as the content creators/bloggers camera so needs a wide angle.

Personally, I think any tool is defined by how you use it and the S9 could be used in any number of roles except perhaps, ultimate photo camera and long take video camera.

But why they didn’t develop a faster, AF lens at the same time is a bit shortsighted if not bizarre?

Other brands have had for years some pancake(ish) budget options…

[IronFilm]

27 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Agree that the f8 manual lens is something of an abomination and did the launch no favours…but, this thing is being marketed as the content creators/bloggers camera so needs a wide angle.

Gee, didn't realize the existing options for Panasonic was so bad:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Camera-Lenses/ci/17912/N/4196380428?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH&filters=fct_brand_name%3Apanasonic%2Cfct_lens-mount_3442%3Aleica-l-mount%2Cfct_lenses-kits_7315%3Alenses-only%2Cfct_zooms-primes_5903%3Aprime-lenses

$600 for a 35mm f1.8 or $800 for a 24mm f1.8 or $900 for an 18mm f1.8!

They really needed to develop a cheaper lens, even if means a compromise on image quality, even if it means it is slower (but not slower than f4) to cater to the wide angle needs of S9 users. 

20mm f4 would have been a fantastic lens for the selfie shooter. Throw in a mid-wide like a 35mm f2.8 at a very cheap price, and you'd have lots of happy S9 users. 

[MrSMW]

The lens options for L Mount has been my issue with them not being the all round best option for me that I had hoped for.

Yes, there are a ton on lenses and some of them some of my absolute faves, mainly the Sigma Contemporary like such as 20mm f2, 65mm f2, 90mm f2.8 and 28-70mm f2.8 and I really like the latest 70-200mm f2.8…except it’s size and weight.

And the latter point is my principal issue.

I can give not just a pass, but a very good case for larger and heavier lenses if they offer something I need or want.

The new Sigma 28-45mm f1.8 is a case in point. Squeaks in under my self-imposed 1kg limit…just…but then that is it for L Mount which for me lacks stuff such as Canon’s 28-70 f2 and their 24-105 f2.8 plus Tamron’s 35-150 f2/2.8.

I really hope that Sigma are working on some other more interesting (to me) stuff and would settle for a 45-90mm f1.8 brother to this latest Sigma lens because I could build a system around those 2 lenses for sure.

Or something to rival that Tamron 35-150, but less bulky and ugly like the Samyang version.

I love the pairing of the 10-25 and 25-50 f1.8 zooms in M4/3 and in my ideal world, I just want to see an internal zooming full frame version of these, ie 20-50 and 50-100 because that would be just nuts for me.

Or maybe the new GH7 will come out of left field for me and allow this… 🤓

[Thpriest]

I used to have the 10-25 f1.7 and it was probably the perfect lens for me. It really was great. The pairing with the 25-50 would be great.

[BTM_Pix]

3 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Or something to rival that Tamron 35-150, but less bulky and ugly like the Samyang version.

Samyang have released it in L Mount this morning.

Thats put a cat amongst my pigeons at least.

[John Matthews]

15 minutes ago, BTM_Pix said:

Samyang have released it in L Mount this morning.

Thats put a cat amongst my pigeons at least.

Wow! What a useful range. I have Pentax 35-105 f/3.5 and it's great, but no AF and you can't really use IBIS because you have to change the settings every time you zoom in and out. That does look big and heavy though.

[ac6000cw]

5 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Gee, didn't realize the existing options for Panasonic was so bad:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/products/Mirrorless-Camera-Lenses/ci/17912/N/4196380428?sort=PRICE_LOW_TO_HIGH&filters=fct_brand_name%3Apanasonic%2Cfct_lens-mount_3442%3Aleica-l-mount%2Cfct_lenses-kits_7315%3Alenses-only%2Cfct_zooms-primes_5903%3Aprime-lenses

$600 for a 35mm f1.8 or $800 for a 24mm f1.8 or $900 for an 18mm f1.8!

They really needed to develop a cheaper lens, even if means a compromise on image quality, even if it means it is slower (but not slower than f4) to cater to the wide angle needs of S9 users. 

20mm f4 would have been a fantastic lens for the selfie shooter. Throw in a mid-wide like a 35mm f2.8 at a very cheap price, and you'd have lots of happy S9 users. 

There are some reasonably compact L-mount Sigma wide primes around e.g. 17mm f4, 20mm f2, 24mm f3.5 and 35mm f2.

The 17mm f4 and 24mm f3.5 are about 49mm long (and have aperture control rings). The f2 lenses are around 70mm long.

But realistically, for most people, the upcoming 18-40mm collapsible zoom is the lens the S9 needs (and should have had available at launch), with the existing (larger) 20-60mm zoom the next best alternative.

[kye]

1 hour ago, Thpriest said:

I used to have the 10-25 f1.7 and it was probably the perfect lens for me. It really was great. The pairing with the 25-50 would be great.

Why did you get rid of it?

Too heavy? too large?

[John Matthews]

2 hours ago, kye said:

Why did you get rid of it?

Too heavy? too large?

I’m guilty of getting lenses; then, selling them and buying them back. I did it with: Pany 14mm, Pany 14-42.5 PZ, Pany 45-150mm, Pany 35-100 kit lens, and I’m forgetting one or two.

[MurtlandPhoto]

29 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

I’m guilty of getting lenses; then, selling them and buying them back.

Dead to rights with me, too.

[John Matthews]

So, the GH7 is going to be announced and it'll probably be the most capable from Panasonic while the S9 will be the "fun" camera. This was not the scenario I would have predicted: a big, capable M43 camera along side a rather small, limited FF camera.

[newfoundmass]

14 hours ago, IronFilm said:

$600 for a 35mm f1.8 or $800 for a 24mm f1.8 or $900 for an 18mm f1.8!

They really needed to develop a cheaper lens, even if means a compromise on image quality, even if it means it is slower (but not slower than f4) to cater to the wide angle needs of S9 users. 

20mm f4 would have been a fantastic lens for the selfie shooter. Throw in a mid-wide like a 35mm f2.8 at a very cheap price, and you'd have lots of happy S9 users. 

Yes, Panasonic's lens options are a weakness. The primes they have are excellent and geared towards video shooters in that they are roughly the same size and weight, have the same filter size, have minimal focus breathing, etc. but they are bigger than their competitors. They are more expensive than Canon's f1.8 primes, which are under $300 and much smaller, but the build quality isn't nearly as good as the Panasonic lenses. Sony has a lot of options, with their sub $600 primes being pretty small but they're also F1.8, f2.5, and f2.8. 

Panasonic should really look into doing budget primes along the lines of what they have for m43 (14mm f2.5, 20mm f1.7, 25mm f1.7, 30mm f1/7, 42.5mm f1.7) A bunch of compact f2.5 or F2/8 lenses for under $300 would be appealing.

[BTM_Pix]

I think Samyang getting that L mount version of the 35-150mm over the line might bode well for the S9 if they can now also start bringing their compact prime lenses over to L mount too.

I have their 35mm f2.8 in E mount, for example, and it would be ideal for the S9 and is available for around £220.

They also have a number of others in the same range such as 24mm etc that are form factor appropriate for the S9.

[kye]

6 hours ago, John Matthews said:

So, the GH7 is going to be announced and it'll probably be the most capable from Panasonic while the S9 will be the "fun" camera. This was not the scenario I would have predicted: a big, capable M43 camera along side a rather small, limited FF camera.

Well, at some point the sheer size of the FF sensor becomes an issue when fitting it into a smaller body, and maybe that's the limit we've reached.  

Not only is the sensor larger, but the IBIS must be more powerful because of the extra weight as well as thermal considerations from the extra power demands, which of course require a larger battery.

There's a reason the iPhone camera can be so small:

 

[kye]

Sample S9 footage...  guy made his own custom LUT and loaded it into the camera and footage wasn't graded in post.  Linked to timestamp:

 

[MrSMW]

I used the in camera LUT feature all last year with the S5ii and would probably have stuck with it this year also except for one issue and that was the footage did not cut seamlessly with that from my S1H.

But otherwise, definitely a good thing for those of us who are not especially interested in grading in post etc.

One option I am considering for 2025 is trading the S1H (cries silently inside) for an S9 but then switching their roles with the S5ii moving into the static role and the dinky S9 on me at all times doing the 10 second clips. 

S9 with the Smallrig grip (or even cage as I use with the S5ii) and the Sigma 28-70mm f2.8 could be a winning combo in that role.

And use the LUT feature again.