Lumix S9

[MrSMW]

6 minutes ago, kye said:

I am growing more and more fond of the saying I invented recently, which is that the art/cinema flows from the people through the equipment to the final film.  

It is simple, but seems to capture the heart of the matter.....   and explains a great deal about the quality of work that we see from various people online.

Absolutely.

I've always started with the finished result and then reverse engineered it when I see so many 'shoot the shit' out of it and then see what they have got to cobble something together from.

It's called vision.

Actually, I say 'always' but that is not actually true...

I started off having zero clue and then progressed steadily towards 'shooting the shit out of it and seeing what I have to then cobble something together' to in the last 10-12 years, actually 'reverse engineering' based on vision.

For stills it's been a fairly easy process.

For video, harder.

For hybrid, hardest.

The single biggest issue?

The tools as in not quite having the right tools for the job so the tools do without question play a part, but as has always been and will always be the case, simply having the best kit is not enough.

 

[IronFilm]

8 hours ago, John Matthews said:

Also, to get the camera to be quiet enough for dialogue, you'd need a blimp only adding to the complexity.

Blimps existed for MOS cameras to make them kinda suitable for sync sound in a pinch. 

Or the other option is rent one of the more expensive cameras that are designed from the ground up to be used on sync sound shoots. 

On that topic, if anybody wants to buy one, ARRI has the very best available for sale right now:

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/06/16/arriflex-416-plus-hs-auction/ 

[kye]

50 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

Blimps existed for MOS cameras to make them kinda suitable for sync sound in a pinch. 

Or the other option is rent one of the more expensive cameras that are designed from the ground up to be used on sync sound shoots. 

On that topic, if anybody wants to buy one, ARRI has the very best available for sale right now:

https://www.newsshooter.com/2024/06/16/arriflex-416-plus-hs-auction/ 

Now this is marketing...  clicked on an S9 thread?  Here's a product you might also be interested in... the ARRI 416!

[IronFilm]

40 minutes ago, kye said:

Now this is marketing...  clicked on an S9 thread?  Here's a product you might also be interested in... the ARRI 416!

At least it is more on topic than a dreadful Sennheiser 416

[kye]

8 hours ago, IronFilm said:

At least it is more on topic than a dreadful Sennheiser 416

....and far more friendly than the HK416.

[MrSMW]

The decision has been made and the deed has been done, - I am once again fully L Mount.

My return to Nikon for stills, was brief but hey ho.

What have I just done?

Put my Nikon Zf, Z6ii and 3x adapted E Mount Tamron lenses to one side for the moment and after I get back from my next trip, both of the Nikon bodies will be sold.

The S1H has moved (once again) and back into the stills role, losing the battery grip as part of that process. This thing is supposed to be 'The Video One', and it is, but also a highly underrated stills camera that benefits (IMO) from having that OLPF.

I've just ordered another (used S5ii) so will now be operating a pair of them, statically, for video usage, both paired with the 'cheapie' 20-60mm 'kit' lens and each with a Rode WG2.

The final component for this year will be an S9. The S9 will be my run & gun lightweight unit paired up with the S1H for stills as my 'on me at all times' pairing.

My only slight issue with this set up is that it remains a 4 unit scenario and I was determined to go to 3 units, but I can live with it as 2 of the units are identical static units. My previous issue had been 1 static and 3x units on me which was too much. Resolved that.

Future?

I'm waiting on any S1H/S1R replacement, expected towards the end of this year and for 2025 season.

That will determine whether I retire the S1H and replace it with something more up to date, or I flip it for a Sony A7RV and use my 3x Tamron lenses.

This Sony + Tamron is actually the dark horse in all this and currently is the best set up for stills and the more likely scenario because L Mount still does not have the glass for me.

If within L Mount they do bring out a sibling to the new Sigma 28-45mm f1.8 such as a 45-90mm f1.8 or an f2.8 compact rival to the Tamron/Samyang 35-150, it will swing back in favour of keeping an all L Mount set up.

But S9, preordered. Didn't see that coming but it actually makes huge sense.

[PannySVHS]

26 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

But S9, preordered. Didn't see that coming but it actually makes huge sense.

You naughty professor of camera setups! Don't make us feel tempted!😂

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I've just ordered another (used S5ii) so will now be operating a pair of them, statically, for video usage, both paired with the 'cheapie' 20-60mm 'kit' lens and each with a Rode WG2.

The final component for this year will be an S9. The S9 will be my run & gun lightweight unit paired up with the S1H for stills as my 'on me at all times' pairing.

My only slight issue with this set up is that it remains a 4 unit scenario and I was determined to go to 3 units, but I can live with it as 2 of the units are identical static units. My previous issue had been 1 static and 3x units on me which was too much. Resolved that.

This makes a lot of sense to me. 

Personally I feel it is risky playing with fire to use less than 2 static cameras, and carrying anything more than two cameras at once becomes a bit ridiculous. 

 

[MrSMW]

2 minutes ago, IronFilm said:

This makes a lot of sense to me. 

Personally I feel it is risky playing with fire to use less than 2 static cameras, and carrying anything more than two cameras at once becomes a bit ridiculous. 

 

I have juggled with so many combos, some of which have worked better than others and as a one man band, it always comes down to the same thing, - what is the max that you can do, and consistently, without tripping over yourself.

The potential issue with 'minimalism' is that often there is no back up, but too much kit and as above, you risk over-complicating and tripping yourself up.

Having 2 identical static video units being fed from 4 audio feeds is minimal set up, but maximum insurance.

With a third roaming run & gun video unit, there is also extensive variety.

Keeping it all within the L Mount family, adds a 4th option with the S1H being stills, but at a flick of a switch, becoming video.

It's also the path of least investment financially and the fact that it is the least compromised option right now, it just makes utter sense.

So I can carry 3 units on me (one each hip and one on a strap), but it's too much, especially when it was 3 different cameras re. ergos etc.

There are still certain minimum's even applying the KISS principal, but this is as KISS as things can be for my needs.

The S9 would never have worked in a 3 unit set up because of that limited recording time, but for several hundred 10 second clips spread over a typical 20+ hour job, perfect.

Tiny Smallrig cage on it's way and will probably stick a small side handle on the side for handling purposes and even with Rode Micro shotgun, we're still talking well under 1kg for a 6k 30p Open Gate set up with near gimbal like stability, and that's a bit bonkers.

[IronFilm]

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

I have juggled with so many combos, some of which have worked better than others and as a one man band, it always comes down to the same thing, - what is the max that you can do, and consistently, without tripping over yourself.

The potential issue with 'minimalism' is that often there is no back up, but too much kit and as above, you risk over-complicating and tripping yourself up.

Having 2 identical static video units being fed from 4 audio feeds is minimal set up, but maximum insurance.

Yup, and a person's optimal setup depends so much on their own goals / skills / equipment. 

For instance I was fairly comfortable shooting weddings sometimes with 6x Panasonic MFT cameras. 

Something like: UWA at the back looking forward, a side camera (maybe from both the  L & R sides, or maybe just one) that's mid wide looking forward, a centered camera mid wide shot looking forward, a camera facing backwards to get the wedding guests, and a central tight camera on the bride/groom/celebrant. Plus my manned camera that's I'm roaming with an all in one zoom. (such as the 14-140mm)

That's easily six plus cameras, and it's quite doable. 

That's largely thanks to their great battery life , no record limits, and no overhead. Was easy and zero hassle! 

But if this setup had been 6x Canon 60D or 6x Nikon D5200, it might have sent me insane due to the extra overhead hassle of dealing with their limitations!

With Panasonic however you can just set it and forget it! It's ok if only 5% of the footage gets used. (perhaps it's the UWA at the back, so it's boring if too much of the ceremony is from that angle. Or maybe a framing is a bit too tight, and the people end up standing somewhere a bit off to the side of where you thought, that's fine too). Because setting up that camera cost a lot less than 5% of your day's efforts!

Although I'd still babysit them a little. Especially if I was using a smaller number, like five or four cameras. My central camera for instance might be fairly loose framing, then once the bride had arrived and I'd got my shots I'd wanted with my manned camera, I'd run over and check on it, adjust the framing if need be, and make the framing a little tighter (no 4K shooting back then! So I had to get the most out of the 1080 that I could). Or maybe I only have a side angle camera on the right hand side of the ceremony, so half way through I might move it across the to the left hand side of the venue just to mix up the footage I'm getting with more variety.  Or maybe I don't have any cameras pointing back at the wedding guests at all, so I'll grap the UWA camera at the back and move it around to the front instead. 

 

1 hour ago, MrSMW said:

So I can carry 3 units on me (one each hip and one on a strap), but it's too much, especially when it was 3 different cameras re. ergos etc.

Interesting, being waaay heavier into the video world than photography, normally one camera is the max for us to be carrying. I know multiple is more normal for photographers.

But I find it curious the split, 2x hip vs 1x strap. I'd have thought it made more sense to use a dual sling for your main two cameras and put on your hip the 3rd camera you might use? Why have you gone with a 2x hip vs 1x strap split instead. 

[MrSMW]

2 hours ago, IronFilm said:

But I find it curious the split, 2x hip vs 1x strap. I'd have thought it made more sense to use a dual sling for your main two cameras and put on your hip the 3rd camera you might use? Why have you gone with a 2x hip vs 1x strap split instead. 

Well I go through phases of different combos and actually mostly use a Spider Holster belt AND a twin harness.

The beauty of the hip set up is the weight is off your neck & upper back and on your hips, but with the added bonus that if you miss the Spider holster slot, the camera does not drop and smash into 62 bazillion pieces on the concrete floor, but dangles at the end of the strap instead.

Plus you can push the camera against the strap for added stability.

But…I don’t really like the harness system because it’s not great with a white linen shirt.

Sooooo I have been using a 2 camera system on non-wedding days and my white linen shirts and then on wedding days, adding the harness over a navy blue shirt for that third camera.

But going forward, that harness is now going into retirement as it’s strictly 2 cameras on me; one video and one stills with those other 2, strictly static.

This allows me the illusion of being George Clooney at a wedding rather than a photographer at George Clooney’s wedding.

And yes, I have also operated more than 4 cameras on a job…

One ceremony, I had 7 🤪

Pair of GH5ii’s on a single tripod at the rear, one wide, one long.

3x Go Pros, one front left, one front right, one high up rear to one side in a tree.

2x stills cameras.

Utter madness and never repeated, but you try shit and it seemed like a good idea right up until the point where it became a reality shit show 😂

[IronFilm]

2 hours ago, MrSMW said:

Well I go through phases of different combos and actually mostly use a Spider Holster belt AND a twin harness.

The beauty of the hip set up is the weight is off your neck & upper back and on your hips, but with the added bonus that if you miss the Spider holster slot, the camera does not drop and smash into 62 bazillion pieces on the concrete floor, but dangles at the end of the strap instead.

Plus you can push the camera against the strap for added stability.

But…I don’t really like the harness system because it’s not great with a white linen shirt.

Sooooo I have been using a 2 camera system on non-wedding days and my white linen shirts and then on wedding days, adding the harness over a navy blue shirt for that third camera.

Ah yes, all of that makes a lot of sense! Cheers for sharing

[John Matthews]

Is anyone else finding that the best image from the S5ii or S9 is 1080p 422 for medium shots of people? I'm finding the 4k and 6k images have WAY to much detail in the face, requiring a gaussian blur. I have sharpness turned all the way down. I guess I could filter the crap out of the image, but I don't see the point of 4k and 6k for this.

[MrSMW]

Need to have a play myself as I’ve just gone back to shooting 6k 30p that I dabbled with briefly last year, from the mix of 4k 25p FF and 4k 50p cropped I mostly use.

I do prefer the footage from the S1H over the S5ii but different sensor isn’t it and of course has an OLPF.

I always have a 1/8th mist on my lenses as I find that reduces the contrast and softens in a very subtle manner the sharper detail/digital harshness?

I don’t even have the sharpening turned down.

Maybe it’s just my taste, but as much as I don’t like or want an overly sharpened digital video looking image, I also don’t want a soft one as it’s easier to soften than it is to sharpen.

But 6k 30p 3:2 open gate for me going forward simply so I can maximise my new social media vertical videos and have the framing turned on as 9:16 so I’m shooting for it as much as I am for the main event which goes out at 16:9.

I do like a wider more ‘cinematic’ crop such as 1:85 and 2:39 but the reality these days is screen real estate on a phone so those are my ratios; 16:9 and 9:16

[Thpriest]

Have you tried the 3.3k? I think is 3:2 as well (open gate?) but 50p APSC.

[MrSMW]

5 hours ago, Thpriest said:

Have you tried the 3.3k? I think is 3:2 as well (open gate?) but 50p APSC.

Pretty sure it’s 4:3?

At least S5ii anyway…

Could be an option and I will have to take a look but when I tried the the 6k last year, I really liked the result.

The only reason I did not stick with it was slow mo, but I have finally given that up in order to become a (more) serious filmmaker 😉

[MrSMW]

I think the nicest footage out of any Lumix camera was the 5k 30p from the S1R.

That thing has a completely different sensor to the rest of the S1/S5 lineup.

There was just something about it…

 

[zlfan]

seems to me that s9 is an experimental product, will take at least another two versions to be mature enough. 

[Emanuel]

36 minutes ago, zlfan said:

seems to me that s9 is an experimental product, will take at least another two versions to be mature enough. 

Maybe not, they have what they want to give us.

There's a good thing though. The more FF cameras out there, the more features we have for a more affordable price no matter the sensor format.

EAG :- )

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, zlfan said:

seems to me that s9 is an experimental product, will take at least another two versions to be mature enough. 

I disagree. I think it's meant to be exactly what it is.

The issue is the internet is full of folks with opinions...

No EVF? It's not intended for EVF shooters. Personally, I NEVER use the EVF on any camera and have not for years, whether that be stills or video.

Even in super-bright sunlight, I can at least see the waveform monitor and otherwise trust the AF. Simply a non-issue. To me.

Lack of mechanical shutter. We can debate that one and personally, I WOULD have preferred it if it had one, but hey ho.

Cold not hot shoe. Meh, don't care. I don't shoot flash either and have not done so for even longer than I have not used an EVF so again, for my use, non-issue.

Single card slot. Supposedly that is the compromise in keeping the same size as the S5ii battery and the camera the size it is.

IMO, I would have preferred a slight grip with the extra size used to house a second card slot. This is my only real criticism of this camera, but not a deal breaker.

10 or 15 minute record limit. Sorry, but that one is a complete 1000% non-issue. For anyone requiring longer, just get a more suitable camera such as the S5ii which used 'like new', is basically the same price. And ticks all of the above boxes.

And having said all that, I am actually debating myself now why I don't trade my S1H for a third S5ii...

The options are: GH7, S9, S5ii and S1H.

The pros and cons are: (for me/my needs)

GH7 = whole new eco system for a single camera plus 2 lenses, costs ball park €6k. Not happening.

S9 Pros = smallest, lightest, full frame 6k 30p open gate. Cons = single card slot. Costs €1700 with cage

S5ii Pros = 3rd identical camera in my line up, non of the cons of the S9 and compared with S9 with cage, little difference in size and weight (though the S9 does just still, ooh err missus, edge it). Cons = slightly bigger and heavier than the S9 with cage. Costs €1600

S1H = Own it, best image quality of the bunch (poss due to the OLPF). Cons = biggest, heaviest, oldest, slowest, AF worst, IBIS worst and trade in money is a bit shite. Costs €fuck all

Heart says S9.

Head says cancel preorder and just get another S5ii.