Lumix S9

[ac6000cw]

3 hours ago, Thpriest said:

I will add that I think they've got the price wrong. Here it's 1699€ and the S5mk2 is only 1815€! It should be 300-400€ cheaper which it will be within a year!

But that's comparing current 'street' price of S5ii with launch price of S9 - here in the UK the S5ii was around £1999 at launch, £1649 now. I'd expect the S9 to follow the same sort of price curve, by the end of the year it'll probably be at least £200-£300 cheaper (depending on how good sales are).

It's pretty obvious that it's designed to be as small and cheap as possible - no mechanical shutter, no headphone jack, no EVF, cold shoe only, minimal dials and buttons. That keeps the build cost down and helps the product cope with 'price erosion' over time. If they were making a more cutting-edge camera it might have a much faster stacked sensor to compensate for the lack of mechanical shutter - but then I suspect everyone would be saying it's nice but way too pricey...

[John Matthews]

6 hours ago, kye said:

Optics are different than the specs.

One thing that isn't widely discussed is the optical formulas of lenses and what impacts they have on size and image quality.  In general, the higher the optical performance the higher the quality.....

For example, here's the Zeiss Otus 1.4/55 vs. Zeiss Planar 1.4/50mm

The more everyone online keeps talking about megapixels and sharpness the larger all our lenses get.  It's pretty simple really - we're getting what we asked for.

I've never asked for more megapixels. I was happy with 8-12MP. Glass is evil, the more you have, the more "corrections" there are, to the point of not having any dimensionality. It's very difficult to show dimensionality in only 2D.

[IronFilm]

4 hours ago, Tim Sewell said:

Whatever you can fit on your sound cart, surely?

Well, I'm not going overseas for film work. So I won't be bringing a full sound package, I'll be extremely limited in terms of what I can bring with me. (I'll still bring something, enough to do little short films on the weekends perhaps?)

 

[ac6000cw]

Lens wise, I think what is needed to pair with the S9 is a collapsible kit zoom like the APS-C Nikon Z 16-50mm f3.5-6.3 but FF so maybe a 24-70mm f4-7.1 ?

But as MrSMW said, at the moment a Sigma APS-C 18-50 f2.8 makes a lot of sense for video use as 4k50/60p is APS-C cropped anyway.

 

[sanveer]

2 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

From the specs on the Panasonic UK website:

 

Whoa. This is pretty terrible 😕 

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[kye]

4 hours ago, John Matthews said:

I've never asked for more megapixels. I was happy with 8-12MP. Glass is evil, the more you have, the more "corrections" there are, to the point of not having any dimensionality. It's very difficult to show dimensionality in only 2D.

Yeah, unfortunately it's the collective "we" and those of us who think there might be an optimum resolution and sharpness are hopelessly outnumbered by the MOAR! MOAR!! MOARRR!!!! people who are completely divorced from reality and can never get enough.

[John Matthews]

There was a lot of talk about the Panasonic marketing concerning the S9:

 

[SRV1981]

Just now, John Matthews said:

There was a lot of talk about the Panasonic marketing concerning the S9:

Hey guys! These trips aren’t cool at all but we do get free vacations, products to review, and then we can use this as a way to make ads for other companies products too! 
 

yea totally trustworthy Gerald 😂 

[John Matthews]

I keep finding more stuff that the S9 doesn't do that the S5ii does as I'm trying to help the "reviewers" out there.

(Re)(Re)updated list:

Pros for S9

• 258g lighter
• Smaller body
• $300 cheaper than S5ii
• LUT mayhem if you're into that
• Cold shoe

Pros for S5ii

• EVF
• Mechanical shutter
• Dual card slots
• Headphone jack
• True unlimited recording with a fan
• Way more buttons and customisation in the body
• Proxy recording
• 14bit Raw files
• Better grip
• Weather sealed body
• Hot shoe for flash photography and XLR adapter
• Full-sized HDMI
• Charging via USB-C while using the camera

[John Matthews]

It's amazing to see all the Panasonic features in general, even though many features are available on the S5ii but not on the S9. Geeky Nerdy Techy show many of the things Panasonic cameras can do in 2024.

Here's a good complete walkthrough of the S9:

 

[John Matthews]

I was checking some French language YouTube videos and wasn't surprised they simply say exactly the same thing as in the English speaking videos. In the comment, as in the English speaking video comments, there are many criticisms about Panasonic's choices. This is also exactly what happened to the G100 when is camera out minus the wining and dining of YouTubers due to Covid. However, it's important to note that the G100 was still a very successful camera according to Panasonic. There's no telling how young buyers will view this camera; so, who knows if it's going to sell or not? What I find funny is some YouTubers like Micro Four Nerds (love her channel and it was the first video I saw) was super critical about the G100 for its video time limitations in 4k; yet, in the S9, it didn't seem like a big deal even though she was critical of other aspects. Once again, you really have to wonder about how wining and dining affects the final review... or maybe she changed her mind.

[newfoundmass]

14 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

From the specs on the Panasonic UK website:

 

It sucks, but I'll give them credit for putting the recording limits in. At least then people can know what to expect, unlike with other camera companies. 

[John Matthews]

12 minutes ago, newfoundmass said:

It sucks, but I'll give them credit for putting the recording limits in. At least then people can know what to expect, unlike with other camera companies. 

That cannot be understated. If you need to use the camera, there's nothing more frustrating than knowing it could quit on you at any moment- the very definition for "not professional usage". However, having a reliable limit, you can plan around it and still could be viewed for "professional usage", but there's no redundancy either; so, there's that. The killer is when a camera is weather-sealed and has 2 SD card slots but still overheats at any moment.

For the S9's communication, I think they should have put a lot more effort in explaining why they made certain choices à la Steve Jobs' Reality Distortion Field. It probably would have gone better. They simply state that the other guys have cameras that overheat "whenever" and we limit the camera to specific times. It would have been more acceptable.

 The fact is that Japanese companies often suck at selling stuff, but they excel at making and designing stuff. I know, it's stereotypical, but otherwise it's difficult to make any generalizations.

[kye]

After a little while reading comments and watching videos and reading the specs, I have come to think of this camera a little differently than it seems others are.

I think it's about size.  

If you want a better camera and don't care about size then just buy an S5iiX, or a BMCC 6K, or Alexa or whatever.  

Camerasize.com doesn't have the S9 yet, so I did a mockup myself, basically it's the same size as the GX85:

In those terms, it's a GX85 sized camera body but FF, PDAF, Dual native ISO, 10-bit LOG, Open Gate, claimed 14+ stops of DR, cutting edge colour profiles, etc, without losing the IBIS etc.  If it was an MFT camera then people would be falling all over themselves about it, but it's FF and so somehow has to be an Alexa LF to not get roasted..  doesn't make sense to me.

Of course, it's not perfect because nothing is, but at this size and price the competition really isn't perfect either.  

Also, the F8 prime doesn't really bother me that much, and it's a much closer comparison to the 14mm F2.5 lens than you might think.  The 14mm F2.5 has the DOF of a 28mm F5 lens, which is only just over a stop deeper, and if you combine the dual ISO of the S9 with the F8 lens then that gives it a 2.5 stop boost giving equivalent light gathering of a F3.5 lens (if I did the math right?).
The iPhone 15 main camera has a crop factor of 5, so the main lens is equivalent to a 26mm F7.2 lens, and older models had smaller sensors so would be equivalent to slower lenses.  Entire media empires have been built on content shot on phones, so I don't see this as a major issue.  

Then again, I bought the Olympus 15mm F8 body cap lens for MFT, so what would I know!
My review of that lens is that it's great, but F8 is too slow for anything indoors or after sunset.  With the Dual ISO that limitation disappears.

The challenge for FF was lens size (and especially the L-mount), so here's a lens that's small and pocketable and great for street photography.  Is it overpriced?  Should it be AF?  Probably..  but it exists, and "F8 and be there" is a saying that came from the best photographers who ever lived and has stood the test of time.

All that said, I'm not buying one because the lenses are all still enormous except the new pancake.  Hopefully this is a new body that Panasonic can re-use for the MFT line 🙂

[IronFilm]

3 hours ago, John Matthews said:

There was a lot of talk about the Panasonic marketing concerning the S9:

This was a very ugly hit piece against Panasonic by Gerald. 

See, I see no problem whatsoever with Panasonic not inviting Gerald (& others) because they believe the Panasonic S9 isn't for him. 

This is no different whatsoever to if camera very specifically targeting street photographers got released, then they won't be inviting people who specialize in the niche of bird photography!! That's silly, as they might just end up complaining about: FPS / weather proofing / crop mode / buffer size / their own weird ergonomic needs / etc 

However those same people could find themselves still being invited to a release of a camera that is for bird photographer (IF they haven't just done an ugly hit piece against the brand! Such as Gerald just did). 

[MrSMW]

1 hour ago, kye said:

Hopefully this is a new body that Panasonic can re-use for the MFT line

Ha, like the opposite of what they did with the G9?!

I was giving this camera a little further consideration and came to the conclusion that it actually does everything my S5ii does THAT I USE, but in a more compact and lighter body.

I use my S5ii as a purely handheld, run & gun, 4k 50p, unit along with Smallrig cage, side handle, Sigma 28-70mm f2.8 and Rode Micro.

I could see a use case of a more compact version of that using the S9 as a base.

I would then ideally move the S5ii over to being a stills unit but have already established I don’t much care for it in this role, so I’d need to sell it.

So used trade in price vs new S9 price. What would I gain and what would I lose?

Gain = smaller & lighter

Lose = stuff such as; recording length, potential overheating, twin card slots…stuff you might call ‘pro’ needs.

So on balance, would the S9 make a great small run & gun video unit? I think without question yes, but I’d need to test it in worst case real world scenarios to know I could fully trust it whereas my S5ii has seen and passed a full year of that and sailed through.

I could also see it as a compact stills unit with a set of small Sigma f2.8 primes such as the 24, 35, 45, 90, but for my kind of work/needs, despite being a prime guy at heart, zooms are what I need.

[John Matthews]

1 hour ago, kye said:

In those terms, it's a GX85 sized camera body but FF, PDAF, Dual native ISO, 10-bit LOG, Open Gate, claimed 14+ stops of DR, cutting edge colour profiles, etc, without losing the IBIS etc.  If it was an MFT camera then people would be falling all over themselves about it, but it's FF and so somehow has to be an Alexa LF to not get roasted..  doesn't make sense to me.

Unfortunately, I feel like the S9 makes no one happy. For video, it has many limits; for photos, it doesn't have a mechanical shutter. Who is left?

I love the size and weight. I rarely shoot longer than 10 minutes. I use electronic shutter most of the time. I think this camera could be for me, but I'd need to accept not being able to grow. And there's the rub- it has limitations for growth. There's also an argument to say those very limitations will foster creativity.

1 hour ago, kye said:

Also, the F8 prime doesn't really bother me that much, and it's a much closer comparison to the 14mm F2.5 lens than you might think.  The 14mm F2.5 has the DOF of a 28mm F5 lens, which is only just over a stop deeper, and if you combine the dual ISO of the S9 with the F8 lens then that gives it a 2.5 stop boost giving equivalent light gathering of a F3.5 lens (if I did the math right?).

Damn, it looks cool. However, I'm most disappointed in Lumix over this lens. Something went seriously haywire in the marketing team IMO. Even the 12-32 kit lens s a 24mm f7 with IS and AF. Actually, I'd like to see a comparison of the 12-32 at 13mm and the 26mm pancake. Which will perform better? This comparison will happen.

31 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

I was giving this camera a little further consideration and came to the conclusion that it actually does everything my S5ii does THAT I USE, but in a more compact and lighter body.

Me too, but it's too expensive right now. And the shutter sound will be awesome! :-)

32 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

So on balance, would the S9 make a great small run & gun video unit? I think without question yes, but I’d need to test it in worst case real world scenarios to know I could fully trust it whereas my S5ii has seen and passed a full year of that and sailed through.

It's all about 258g (the difference between the S5ii and the S9). Looking at the supplied grip to the people who went to Osaka, it will actually be less than that if you believe it needs better handling. In fact, this is more than ever one of those cameras you really want to try out first. It looks cool though; so, it might not matter. I'd also say, if you wanted that 18mm prime, you can get the S9 with it for 2000 euros at FNAC, which is a significantly better price than 1699 euros body only in France. If the camera doesn't sell well out of the gate, I imagine the price will be around 1200 euros with that new kit lens by November 2024 (in France).

[MrSMW]

9 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

It's all about 258g (the difference between the S5ii and the S9)

Which real world for those that don’t get too hung up about spec sheets, is not really any kind of issue once there is; a grip or cage, lens, mic etc attached and ergos are FAR more important.

For instance, my Nikon Zf vs my Z6ii. The Zf is a more capable camera, but the Z6ii kills it for ergos hence why I am very much looking forward to a Z6iii that will hopefully not only combine the best of both, but add to it and allow me to switch out 2 bodies for a single one. There’s a compromise with that (there generally is) but one I can live with and the benefit for my needs outweighs the slight negative.

And then there is the price… I think the S9 is a tad ambitious. To me it’s more like a 1k camera and will be within a few months on the used market.

That’s when I think it might be worth picking one up, back end of this year.

But only if it’s going to serve a purpose.

I don’t know what is going on with Sigma, but I would have thought they were perfect to fill this niche. An FP’3’ would tick a huge amount of boxes for filmmakers, photographers and Cuntent Creators…

[kye]

54 minutes ago, MrSMW said:

Ha, like the opposite of what they did with the G9?!

<snip>

Lose = stuff such as; recording length, potential overheating, twin card slots…stuff you might call ‘pro’ needs.

Yeah, exactly like the G9.  Making the S9 into a GX line camera would literally be the same - taking a FF body and putting an MFT sensor / mount into it.

If they did this, it would make sense.  Have a few standard body shapes where you can get economies of scale for manufacture, and just change the sensor and lens mounts etc for different models.  BM has been doing this with the BMPCC lineup.

I'd be inclined to say that this is what they're doing, but who knows...  anything designed by committee is inherently unpredictable unless you're in the room with the committee, and even then, lots of corporate folks get chewed up and spat out by office politics even when they are in the room!

In terms of the potential overheating, Gerald said something in the livestream to the effect that Panasonic test their cameras at 40C / 104F and that these record time limits would be a guarantee that the camera would record for that long under those conditions.  It was just a reference in passing of course, so don't quote me on that.

I also heard a comment in one of the reviews (Cams IIRC) where someone said that someone tested the camera by just hitting record over and over again, and it being fine recording for something like an hour, and there was talk with Panasonic about removing the time limits via firmware, but obviously who knows what will happen.

11 minutes ago, John Matthews said:

Unfortunately, I feel like the S9 makes no one happy. For video, it has many limits; for photos, it doesn't have a mechanical shutter. Who is left?

I suspect a bunch of people will be happy.  Dave said in the steam that he mentioned the controversy about the release to one of the creators who was there and they didn't know what he was talking about because his audience, who are all iPhone / vlogging folks, didn't have any negative comments about it at all.

When I was shooting with primes, the 2X function on the GH5 and GX85 were really important to me.  They literally changed the lenses that I bought and my approach to how I shot.  For most people this feature was of zero importance.
Why do I say this?  For most people who buy these cameras, this whole conversation and controversy is the equivalent of me talking about the 2X feature - they don't know about this stuff, wouldn't understand it if they came across it, and if we explained it to them they simply wouldn't care.

[SRV1981]

A few things, 

 

1. Gerald’s video confirms that these folks can’t be trusted as independent sources.  Yes they’re not paid but a free trip to hang out with friends is an incentive to want to be in their good graces. 
2. he noted they used these as trips to make content for a sponsor - aka a paid commercial. Again, not trustworthy 

3. this camera doesn’t need a mechanical shutter because it’s not for pro level use. It’s for people on vacation or with their family. 
4. this camera isn’t for YouTubers or wedding videographers. It’s for the person taking short bursts of video with friends, family, and when traveling. 
5. if Panasonic can get it right with lenses then this will be a line that makes sense. If this currently had a 2.8 pancake  this easily is more desirable than some of its competitors. 
6. not every camera has to be for every market, this def. Targets schmucks like me who don’t want to color grade 🤭