lsquare Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 I'm just learning about this format. Isn't RAW just RAW? Why would there be ProRes RAW and ProRes RAW HQ? Are both of these formats truly RAW like CinemaDNG? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 2 hours ago, lsquare said: I'm just learning about this format. Isn't RAW just RAW? Why would there be ProRes RAW and ProRes RAW HQ? Are both of these formats truly RAW like CinemaDNG? Probably not. But you probably don't want uncompressed RAW because the file sizes are astronomical. There are compression schemes which are very close to be visually lossless, which are almost as good, and save a significant amount of storage. Depending on your needs, you're likely willing to sacrifice some image quality for some space savings. For example, you might accept a 1% loss in quality for a 50%+ reduction in file size, etc. BRAW has compression ratios between 3:1 and 12:1, even on their top cameras, so the artefacts from huge compression ratios can't be that bad, and you can get a lot of compression before people can even notice. Emanuel and John Matthews 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjohn Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 According to Apple's spec page on ProRes RAW, it's compressed. Seems like it applies variable compression just like Blackmagic Design does with some of the flavours of BRAW: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/102124 "You can choose between two ProRes RAW compression levels: ProRes RAW and ProRes RAW HQ. Both compression levels achieve excellent preservation of raw video content, with Apple ProRes RAW HQ providing additional quality at a higher data rate. ProRes RAW data rates can vary significantly based on image content, because the codec is designed to maintain constant quality and pristine image fidelity for all frames." lsquare 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eatstoomuchjam Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 6 hours ago, lsquare said: I'm just learning about this format. Isn't RAW just RAW? Why would there be ProRes RAW and ProRes RAW HQ? Are both of these formats truly RAW like CinemaDNG? To start with, "raw" is not capitalized when referring to "raw video." However, it is when referring to specific codecs such as "ProRes RAW" because somebody at Apple said it would be. Second, to answer your first question, no. Even "raw" on many cameras is less raw thatn you expect. Anyway, there will always be a certain amount of navel gazing and discussions about which format is and is not really "raw." If applying "visually lossless" compression would make you consider raw not to be raw enough, you'll have to take that up with the likes of Red, Canon, Apple, BlackMagic, Cineform, and just about any other company who has sold a camera with a raw option. Most of the time, what people care about is the ability to change white balance/color in a pretty big way without loss of quality - that and in most cases, getting 12+ bits per color channel can be nice. They'll also say that you can change ISO, but there are a lot of asterisks around what that actually means. If the raw format allows those things, then that's effectively enough. lsquare and kye 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlfan Posted June 10 Share Posted June 10 only arriraw is uncompressed, magic lantern raw is true lossless codec or uncompressed. other raw formats are codecs, like r3d, prores raw, braw, canon raw light, sony raw format using r5 or r7, etc. lsquare 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjohn Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 1 hour ago, zlfan said: only arriraw is uncompressed, magic lantern raw is true lossless codec or uncompressed. other raw formats are codecs, like r3d, prores raw, braw, canon raw light, sony raw format using r5 or r7, etc. What about CDNG raw, though? There's an uncompressed version (in the Sigma fp and in older Blackmagic cameras including the original Pocket, BMMCC and some of the Ursas). The BMMCC also has a compressed (3:1) version of CDNG raw as an option. kye 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanuel Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 Actually, not. There's no raw data from the sensor, so it's not a raw codec. As much as braw (Blackmagic RAW). However, since you're able to adjust metadata parameters such as WB or ISO, fulfils the flexibility of the use of a raw tool by camera users. Reason why people like me praise BMD capture devices as for instance, rather than adopting the purist mindset :- ) https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/05/07/understanding-prores-raw-is-it-prores-or-is-it-raw/ https://www.fullexposure.photography/what-is-prores-raw/ https://www.cined.com/blackmagic-raw-and-prores-raw-compared/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 21 hours ago, lsquare said: I'm just learning about this format. Isn't RAW just RAW? Why would there be ProRes RAW and ProRes RAW HQ? Are both of these formats truly RAW like CinemaDNG? I'd suggest not getting too far into the weeds with this - people get all funny about things like this when in reality they don't really have much significance. Start with a goal, such as the ability to shoot some situation or other and have the final graded results be of a certain quality, and then work out what is required for that. Others might disagree about this, but I think there isn't a single situation where the difference between uncompressed raw and 3:1 compressed raw actually makes any visible difference to the final edit, let alone what is visible once it is compressed to the deliverable. Doubly-so if you're delivering to a streaming service who will compress the living daylights out of the file. eatstoomuchjam 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlfan Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 2 hours ago, bjohn said: What about CDNG raw, though? There's an uncompressed version (in the Sigma fp and in older Blackmagic cameras including the original Pocket, BMMCC and some of the Ursas). The BMMCC also has a compressed (3:1) version of CDNG raw as an option. cdng seems having a proprietary compression. you are right, cdng has an uncompressed version. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlfan Posted June 11 Share Posted June 11 I think red's r3d is probably the best raw codec. r1mx can go recode 42 1:75, epic-x can go 1:3, epic dragon can go 1:2. all of the nles can render r3d very efficiently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsquare Posted June 13 Author Share Posted June 13 So the reason why ProRes RAW has my attention is because the Panasonic GH7 has it. It seems like more and more consumer/prosumer cameras have some form of ProRes recording rather than CinemaDNG. I guess whether it has "true" RAW or not isn't really the issue. I want to be able to adjust the white balance on my videos in post with little to no loss in quality like I can with RAW images. This is why I never shoot in JPEG. I have never really worried about file sizes. Storage is cheap even though I deal with video. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlfan Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 prores raw is good for rcp, b raw is good for resolve. seems to me they are fighting and not mature enough. I use resolve so I don't care much if the camera has the prores raw. r3d is supported very well by all major nles. I think r3d is the way to go if you really want to shoot raw. I think red cams are very practical raw cams. for ml raw, you need a computer with many cpus to process using mlv app. resolve seems to me is not as good as mlv app to process ml raw. otherwise, resolve can use cuda, so it is faster (about 3 to 5 times faster on the same computer). other raw codecs, they are just not mature enough to be practical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eatstoomuchjam Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Canon raw is also supported in just about every NLE. Braw is supported via plugin in Premiere and FCP. ProRes RAW is supported well in Premiere and FCP (just not Resolve). They're all practical enough, just with the annoying extra step of using an app to extract PRR to cDNG if you want to use it in Resolve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlfan Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 thanks for the info. seems to me canon raw does not have many adjustable options? b raw in fcp may have similar issues? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eatstoomuchjam Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 5 hours ago, zlfan said: seems to me canon raw does not have many adjustable options Which adjustable options did you want? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlfan Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 2 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said: Which adjustable options did you want? a lot options Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kye Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 13 hours ago, lsquare said: So the reason why ProRes RAW has my attention is because the Panasonic GH7 has it. It seems like more and more consumer/prosumer cameras have some form of ProRes recording rather than CinemaDNG. I guess whether it has "true" RAW or not isn't really the issue. I want to be able to adjust the white balance on my videos in post with little to no loss in quality like I can with RAW images. This is why I never shoot in JPEG. I have never really worried about file sizes. Storage is cheap even though I deal with video. You can actually adjust WB and exposure of LOG images just like they are RAW if you have the right colour management setup. It's complicated, but there is a lot of good info out there if you're curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lsquare Posted June 14 Author Share Posted June 14 3 hours ago, kye said: You can actually adjust WB and exposure of LOG images just like they are RAW if you have the right colour management setup. It's complicated, but there is a lot of good info out there if you're curious. Where do I start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eatstoomuchjam Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 7 hours ago, zlfan said: a lot options If you're in Resolve, switch from the Resolve Canon decoder to Canon Full Resolution (I can't remember the exact terms off the top of my head) in the drop-down on the left and you will have a lot more controls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zlfan Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 6 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said: If you're in Resolve, switch from the Resolve Canon decoder to Canon Full Resolution (I can't remember the exact terms off the top of my head) in the drop-down on the left and you will have a lot more controls. thanks for the info. good to know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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