Best practice to setting the white balance?

[lsquare]

I'm a total newbie when it comes to videography. I know the correct white balance isn't always the most atheistically pleasing, but I just want to have a way to save it in case I need it. 

When taking pictures, I shoot RAW and capture another picture with a white balance card under the lighting so that I have a way to set the white balance during post. Ideally, I would edit the white balance on the computer rather than setting it in the camera in the field. 

I'm reading that when changing the white balance on ProRes RAW, there is little to no choice in quality. What about with ProRes HQ 422?

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

That depends on a number of factors and how radically you want to shift the WB.  If you're going from like 5600k to 5200k, I wouldn't worry about it with much of any codec.  If you're going from 5600k to 3200k, there's more danger of losing some color information with the color already baked-in.  

[bjohn]

3 hours ago, lsquare said:

I'm reading that when changing the white balance on ProRes RAW, there is little to no choice in quality. What about with ProRes HQ 422?

I've had good luck making pretty radical changes in white balance in ProRes HQ 422, like from 3200 to 5200. I haven't been able to break ProRes yet, although I'm sure it's possible, but it's a lot more malleable than I expected. I can shoot CDNG raw with my video cameras but usually just shoot ProRes.

[KnightsFan]

First thing I'd say is, it's up to you and your own eyes to determine where your threshold is for what is acceptable. So my recommendation is always to do as many tests as you can to figure out what you personally find as a good workflow, and don't worry too much about what other people say is or is not good enough.

On most controlled shoots, I set a white balance for the scene and use that throughout. When possible, I'll shoot a color chart in the same lighting for reference later. I have found that on my current camera, I get MUCH better results when I set to a specific kelvin value, rather than a white card. I've used cameras in the past that were the opposite.

If you do find that you need to make adjustments in post, you will get the best results if you adjust white balance in linear gamma. The easiest way to do that is by transforming the color space using Resolve's color management. If you don't want to worry about that for now, that's okay! I always like to just try different things to see what happens, and eventually I find what I like.

[MrSMW]

9 hours ago, KnightsFan said:

On most controlled shoots, I set a white balance for the scene and use that throughout.

In my ideal world, that is how I would work as would pretty much any pro.

For my line of work, mainly weddings, and shooting hybrid 100% of jobs, I don’t because it’s not practical, so I have a ‘go to’ instead.

5600 outdoors and indoors in very well lit (natural light) rooms and

4000 indoors less well lit rooms or after dark.

I’m chasing one thing and one thing only and that is consistency.

I’ve tried auto WB a couple of times and nah, it can change multiple times within the same scene and can be even more of a disaster than having the wrong WB.

Consistency, for me anyway, that is the thing.

[lsquare]

Thanks for the tips guys. 

I'm not getting the impression that I can adjust the white balance the way I'm used to with photography which is to take a separate photo with a white balance card for post. Is video a completely different beast where I can't fix the white balance after the fact when shooting in ProRes RAW or ProRes HQ 422? I would prefer the method that I had described in the OP as there are situations where there isn't time to get the white balance right before shooting. I figure the format that I'm shooting in should allow the white balance to be changed easily without harming image quality. I do agree that I should not use auto and instead set a preset that is as close to the actual white balance as possible and correct it in post. I just don't know if I can capture the equivalent of a RAW photo with the white balance card and then use that to get the white balance right in the video. 

[KnightsFan]

On 6/15/2024 at 1:43 AM, MrSMW said:

In my ideal world, that is how I would work as would pretty much any pro.

For my line of work, mainly weddings, and shooting hybrid 100% of jobs, I don’t because it’s not practical, so I have a ‘go to’ instead.

Oh yeah, please no one listen to me if you're doing event shooting. All of my experience is shooting narrative with a script, rehearsals, etc.

5 minutes ago, lsquare said:

Is video a completely different beast where I can't fix the white balance after the fact when shooting in ProRes RAW or ProRes HQ 422?

No, I wouldn't say that. If you use a color managed workflow, you can absolutely change the white balance in post when shooting ProRes Raw or HQ--within reason. If you seriously mess up your white balance (shot at 150 Kelvin and need it to be 6500) it might not go well. But shooting 3000 and changing to 6000 usually looks fine, as mentioned in another comment. Do some tests to see whether it works for you.

Note that it depends on a color managed workflow, because WB changes should be performed in linear gamma. Creative picture profiles typically don't have accurate transformations so they are less useful for changing WB in post. Common log formats typically have LUTs (or, even better, mathematical transformations) to change between gamuts and gammas. Small WB changes might look okay without being in linear space, but the larger the change, the more you'll wish it was done accurately.

[eatstoomuchjam]

11 hours ago, lsquare said:

Is video a completely different beast where I can't fix the white balance after the fact when shooting in ProRes RAW or ProRes HQ 422?

I've found that with just about any raw format, if I change the white balance in the raw developer tab in Resolve, it works just fine, but I'm going at most from like 5600k to 3200k.  If you're going more than that, YMMV.

[lsquare]

On 6/16/2024 at 9:57 AM, KnightsFan said:

Oh yeah, please no one listen to me if you're doing event shooting. All of my experience is shooting narrative with a script, rehearsals, etc.

No, I wouldn't say that. If you use a color managed workflow, you can absolutely change the white balance in post when shooting ProRes Raw or HQ--within reason. If you seriously mess up your white balance (shot at 150 Kelvin and need it to be 6500) it might not go well. But shooting 3000 and changing to 6000 usually looks fine, as mentioned in another comment. Do some tests to see whether it works for you.

Note that it depends on a color managed workflow, because WB changes should be performed in linear gamma. Creative picture profiles typically don't have accurate transformations so they are less useful for changing WB in post. Common log formats typically have LUTs (or, even better, mathematical transformations) to change between gamuts and gammas. Small WB changes might look okay without being in linear space, but the larger the change, the more you'll wish it was done accurately.

Thanks for the information, but I'm still not clear on this. In Adobe Lightroom, I just go to the develop module and utilize the RAW photo with the white balance card to correct the white balance in the photo that I want. Can I do the same thing in a NLE? I'm not getting the impression that I can. It still sounds like to get it right or as close to the correct WB as possible. What would be great is I shoot a clip using as close of a WB as possible and then shoot another one or two second clip holding a white balance card in the frame, and go to an NLE to use that to correct the video. I've never done this with videos before so please forgive me and help me understand it. Thx!

[eatstoomuchjam]

Yes, you can absolutely use a gray card as the starting point for a grade.

If you want a shortcut for it, Resolve even has an eye dropper tool.

If you want to go one better than that, get an X-Rite (or whatever they're called now) color checker passport and grab the color chart on it (which has a gray card on the opposite "page").  Then in Resolve, use the color checker tool which lets you draw a box around the checker with the squares aligned with the patches.  Then choose your input and output color space/gamma. 

[lsquare]

21 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

Yes, you can absolutely use a gray card as the starting point for a grade.

If you want a shortcut for it, Resolve even has an eye dropper tool.

If you want to go one better than that, get an X-Rite (or whatever they're called now) color checker passport and grab the color chart on it (which has a gray card on the opposite "page").  Then in Resolve, use the color checker tool which lets you draw a box around the checker with the squares aligned with the patches.  Then choose your input and output color space/gamma. 

Thank you!

As I said I'm a total newbie when it comes to videos so I need a bit more details and guidance to get started. For the NLE, I will work with and try to learn FCP and Resolve. 

I keep using the analogy of me taking a RAW photo of the scene and then immediately taking an identical picture with the same settings and a white balance card. Then in post, I used the develop module in Adobe Lightroom to correct the white balance. 

I know shooting videos is different. If I were to do something similar with videos, and you seem to suggest I can do the same thing with videos, then how long does the second clip with the white balance card have to be so that I can use it to correct the white balance in the first clip? Let's say I shoot a one-minute clip of an interview conducted in an office. Then shoot a one or two-second clip with a white balance card and use Resolve's eye dropper tool?

 

[eatstoomuchjam]

The second clip would need to be at least one frame long.  For the most part, I just do them in the same clip.  I taped a color chart to the back of my slate and I ask the person who is using the slate to flip it around before clapping.

[lsquare]

3 minutes ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

The second clip would need to be at least one frame long.  For the most part, I just do them in the same clip.  I taped a color chart to the back of my slate and I ask the person who is using the slate to flip it around before clapping.

I'm a one-man team. If shooting two clips is tedious and not optimal, any better idea? Is my photography-oriented method what a lot of guys do? Or do they get the white balance right before the shoot?

[eatstoomuchjam]

You can shoot two clips.  The second can be of any length as long as the card is in the right place.

I don't know what everybody else does!  There are plenty of options like doing a custom white balance in camera using a grey card or using the eye dropper (or a color checker) in post.  Your mileage may vary, best to experiment to figure out a workflow that works for you before trying it on a shoot that matters.

[lsquare]

1 hour ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

You can shoot two clips.  The second can be of any length as long as the card is in the right place.

I don't know what everybody else does!  There are plenty of options like doing a custom white balance in camera using a grey card or using the eye dropper (or a color checker) in post.  Your mileage may vary, best to experiment to figure out a workflow that works for you before trying it on a shoot that matters.

The method that I outlined for taking photos is what I'm used to do. My inclination is to do something similar for videos, but I don't know if that's efficient or not. 

With my method, how do I correct the white balance in Resolve or FCP? I'm looking for detailed steps as I'm a total newbie. 

Thank you!

[eatstoomuchjam]

Well, it's not efficient for photos and it won't be efficient for video either.  🙂

As already mentioned, there is an eyedropper tool in Resolve that you can use in one of the earlier nodes to click on a grey card.

Otherwise, at the risk of sounding like a broken record, get a color checker and use the color checker tool in Resolve if you want a quick way to get nice/accurate colors as a starting point.

[bjohn]

Another, albeit more expensive, option, is to use a color temperature incident meter to read the color temperature of the light that's falling on your subject(s). You can either use that to set the correct temperature in the camera or if you don't want to bother, just note it down somewhere and dial in that Kelvin temperature in post. The problem is that color temperature meters are expensive: my Sekonic one cost twice as much as my camera. But it is quite accurate.

A free but less accurate alternative is to use a phone app like Cine Color Checker (I think that's the name) or the Blackmagic Camera app, which will show you the color temperature of whatever scene you're pointing the phone's camera at. The Blackmagic app will only give you reflected readings, though; incident readings are generally more accurate.

[eatstoomuchjam]

That's also assuming that the color temperature settings in the camera are a match for your color meter - and that's definitely not guaranteed.

[mercer]

I haven't shot ProRes Raw, but with raw cDNG files you can correct WB in post via the Raw Tab on the Color page in Resolve. You should try to set your Kelvin Temperature as close in camera as possible or use the presets. And then once in Resolve you can change the temperature and tint on the raw tab. As long as you know what type of lighting equals what Kelvin temperature you should be able to get it close in camera, or change it in post pretty easily.

In FCPX, there are a few options... you can change the temp/tint with the color wheels tool, you can use the Balance Color tool which is an automated process in FCPX, or you can follow some of Larry Jordan's suggestions... search for his channel on YouTube, he is pretty much the go to guy for FCPX questions and more than likely will have the answer for you.

On a side note, which could be useful... with the GH7, I think you can have your WB set to auto and then customize one of your buttons to toggle on/off AWB Lock. Toggle off the lock for a couple seconds while the camera figures out the WB and then toggle on the AWB Lock. The S5iiX could do it and I found it to be pretty reliable with the ProRes files I was recording. That said, certain situations... like sunsets, AWB may not get the dramatic orange and pink tones perfectly and will adjust it more conservatively and you may have to tweak it to taste in post.

[PannySVHS]

On 6/14/2024 at 1:59 PM, lsquare said:

I'm a total newbie when it comes to videography. I know the correct white balance isn't always the most atheistically pleasing, but

 

You don't seem as much of a newbie when looking at your post from ten years ago. @lsquare What is going on here? Where have you been all these ten years? Time traveling backwards? You were shooting with an FZ1000. Or you will be shooting with an FZ1000.😂