Good value microphone for capturing ambient sound?

lsquare · June 14

My understanding is that a shotgun microphone will be one-directional and may not be good at capturing ambient sound? Let's say you're trying to capture the sound of the waterfall or the ambient sound when you're standing by the edge of a cliff in a forest. I intend to use this with a Panasonic DMW-XLR2.

https://shop.panasonic.com/products/lumix-xlr-microphone-adaptor-dmw-xlr2

For microphones, I should be looking at something like this?

https://rode.com/en/microphones/on-camera/stereo-videomic-x

newfoundmass · June 14

Unless you need 32 bit float audio or are using an XLR microphone you don't need the XLR adapter.

There are a lot of different mics you can go with to get good ambient sound, with different configurations. The Stereo VideoMic for example has an XY configuration, while the Sennheiser MKE 440 has a more directional dual shotgun configuration. Which is better comes down to preference and what you're looking for.

eatstoomuchjam · June 14

At the risk of jumping in on a question that was basically made for @IronFilm, if your goal is to capture ambient sound as a 360 degree soundscape, you probably want an ambisonic microphone. Look into something like the Zoom VRH-8 or the Rode NT-SF1.

IronFilm · June 15

@lsquareif you want a scratch mic with your DWM-XLR2 to get decent-ish ambient audio, then get the Deity SMic3S if on a very low budget, or the Sanken CSM1 if on a medium budget.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1830582-REG/deity_microphones_dtm0304d11_s_mic_3s_short_shotgun.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1404643-REG/sanken_cs_m1_super_cardioid_short.html

7 hours ago, eatstoomuchjam said:

At the risk of jumping in on a question that was basically made for @IronFilm, if your goal is to capture ambient sound as a 360 degree soundscape, you probably want an ambisonic microphone. Look into something like the Zoom VRH-8 or the Rode NT-SF1.

Unless they're specifically doing 360VR videos, or maybe some other niche usage (I dunno, creating audio library with lots of different format options??) then usually ambisonics is not a good idea for ambient recordings.

lsquare · June 16

On 6/14/2024 at 8:38 PM, IronFilm said:

@lsquareif you want a scratch mic with your DWM-XLR2 to get decent-ish ambient audio, then get the Deity SMic3S if on a very low budget, or the Sanken CSM1 if on a medium budget.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1830582-REG/deity_microphones_dtm0304d11_s_mic_3s_short_shotgun.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1404643-REG/sanken_cs_m1_super_cardioid_short.html

Unless they're specifically doing 360VR videos, or maybe some other niche usage (I dunno, creating audio library with lots of different format options??) then usually ambisonics is not a good idea for ambient recordings.

That sounds like a great idea, especially the Deity as it's nice and small.

What do you mean by a scratch mic?

I'm assuming it'll be compatible with the Panasonic adapter to record 32-bit audio? Will it fit inside the mic holder in the XLR2? Microphones seem to come I various sizes.

I thought these kinds of mics were unidirectional. What makes it even decent for capturing ambient audio?

Thank you.

newfoundmass · June 16

On 6/14/2024 at 11:38 PM, IronFilm said:

@lsquareif you want a scratch mic with your DWM-XLR2 to get decent-ish ambient audio, then get the Deity SMic3S if on a very low budget, or the Sanken CSM1 if on a medium budget.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1830582-REG/deity_microphones_dtm0304d11_s_mic_3s_short_shotgun.html

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1404643-REG/sanken_cs_m1_super_cardioid_short.html

If I'm outdoors standing on a cliff and want to capture the sounds of the forest around me, I definitely wouldn't go the supercardioid route. While not an identical scenario, when I was looking for mics for my pro-wrestling work, I went with stereo ones that could better pick up the spectators and arena atmosphere. My beloved supercardioid mic (the Azden SGM-250CX, a very underrated mic IMO) did a poor job of it, because it mostly picked up what was going on in the ring itself, which for me is actually a negative because it picked up the wrestlers talking to each other during the matches.

4 hours ago, lsquare said:

What do you mean by a scratch mic?

Scratch mics are generally mics that pick up audio that isn't used in the final edit but only as a reference. It doesn't really apply to your question, I'm not sure why he brought it up.

4 hours ago, lsquare said:

I'm assuming it'll be compatible with the Panasonic adapter to record 32-bit audio?

Yes, but you really don't need 32-bit for the uses you've described. Simply plugging a microphone into the GH7 and setting your levels will be more than enough for what you're talking about doing. I use 32-bit float audio because I deal with situations that are unpredictable, where audio will suddenly get way louder out of nowhere so I need to be able to bring it down in post. For what you're doing, you really won't have that problem.

A simple stereo mic that you plug into your GH7 is more than enough, and will save you hundreds of dollars in buying an adapter you don't need to achieve what you're talking about.

IronFilm · June 17

10 hours ago, lsquare said:

What do you mean by a scratch mic?

Just "something" to get audio into the camera.

10 hours ago, lsquare said:

I'm assuming it'll be compatible with the Panasonic adapter to record 32-bit audio? Will it fit inside the mic holder in the XLR2? Microphones seem to come I various sizes.

Yes, perhaps it might need a little strip of rubber if it is very lose, but probably not.

10 hours ago, lsquare said:

I thought these kinds of mics were unidirectional.

No, they are supercardioid

IronFilm · June 17

5 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

If I'm outdoors standing on a cliff and want to capture the sounds of the forest around me, I definitely wouldn't go the supercardioid route.

"Depends". If you're somewhat far away from the source, such as standing across a pool of water from a waterfall, then a directional mic could make sense.

Your specific phrase of "the sounds of the forest around (behind) me" isn't what OP originally said. They said at the of a cliff, with the forest behind them. What they see in the distance, from the cliff edge, could be vastly more important to them, than the forest that's behind them and out of shot.

6 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Scratch mics are generally mics that pick up audio that isn't used in the final edit but only as a reference. It doesn't really apply to your question, I'm not sure why he brought it up.

Scratch audio might or might not be used in the final edit, sometimes it is.

I kinda classify all on camera mounted mics, be it for "ambient" or whatever, as scratch mics. Got a get a mic off camera if you want better than scratch audio.

lsquare · June 18

On 6/16/2024 at 7:43 PM, IronFilm said:

Just "something" to get audio into the camera.

Yes, perhaps it might need a little strip of rubber if it is very lose, but probably not.

No, they are supercardioid

How is the Deity Mic better than the Rode stereo mic for the example that I gave?

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1273119-REG/rode_stereo_videomic_pro_r_stereo_videomic_pro_rycote.html?gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQjw4MSzBhC8ARIsAPFOuyVlatWiDYvwbkdmDaYXXFRQLSZAblR3fS9woPQFR-xRkHpYy5z8sYAaAm5ZEALw_wcB

Wouldn't I want a mic to record sound from the sides and back?

IronFilm · June 18

1 hour ago, lsquare said:

Wouldn't I want a mic to record sound from the sides and back?

Do you? Do you really?

Go ahead and buy, but perhaps you might find it picking up too much? (you really might not know for sure, for your own personal circumstances, until you go ahead and try it out)

lsquare · June 18

1 hour ago, IronFilm said:

Do you? Do you really?

Go ahead and buy, but perhaps you might find it picking up too much? (you really might not know for sure, for your own personal circumstances, until you go ahead and try it out)

That's why I'm asking. I'm trying to learn without wasting my money.

newfoundmass · June 18

It boils down to preference and what sounds you want to capture.

I personally would go for something like the Sennheiser MKE 440. I really don't think a supercardioid is the ideal mic to pic up full sounding ambient noise in nature. If you wanted to do more specific sound recording in the forest then that's different.

IronFilm · June 19

11 hours ago, lsquare said:

That's why I'm asking. I'm trying to learn without wasting my money.

Perhaps explain more precisely what type of recordings you're doing and videos you're making?

Is sync sound even the optimal right choice for you? Maybe a little Tascam DR-40X is a better idea for you, and you'd record the specific audio you want, to later on sync up in post.

It all "depends".

lsquare · June 19

10 hours ago, IronFilm said:

Perhaps explain more precisely what type of recordings you're doing and videos you're making?

Is sync sound even the optimal right choice for you? Maybe a little Tascam DR-40X is a better idea for you, and you'd record the specific audio you want, to later on sync up in post.

It all "depends".

Whenever I see a shotgun microphone, I think it's unidirectional and useful for capturing audio coming in front of me, which would be useful for interviews or stuff like that. As I said, I want to capture audio like as if I'm standing right there and soaking it in. I don't know if that makes any sense. I thought my OP was self-explanatory when I outlined what I wanted to do. Or picture this, you're standing in the street and you want to record all of the sounds of city life while recording videos of people walking on the street.

With regards to the Rode stereo mic, in which situation would that mic be usefully compared to the shotgun mica that you keep on referencing? A detailed explanation would go a long way to help me understand what I need to do. I honestly don't know how else to explain what I'm looking to do.

newfoundmass · June 19

50 minutes ago, lsquare said:

Whenever I see a shotgun microphone, I think it's unidirectional and useful for capturing audio coming in front of me, which would be useful for interviews or stuff like that. As I said, I want to capture audio like as if I'm standing right there and soaking it in. I don't know if that makes any sense. I thought my OP was self-explanatory when I outlined what I wanted to do. Or picture this, you're standing in the street and you want to record all of the sounds of city life while recording videos of people walking on the street.

With regards to the Rode stereo mic, in which situation would that mic be usefully compared to the shotgun mica that you keep on referencing? A detailed explanation would go a long way to help me understand what I need to do. I honestly don't know how else to explain what I'm looking to do.

A shotgun mic would be better to pick up a specific sound in that scenario, while still getting some of the other sounds around it.

A stereo mic, like the Rode or the Sennheiser, will do a better job of capturing the environment as a whole.

Let's say you're on a busy street and there's a man playing music on the corner. With the Deity you'll be able to focus in more on the music, with less street noise in the recording. With a stereo mic you'll pick up the street noise a lot more when focusing on the musician.

In nature, replace the musician with a waterfall or stream. You'll be able to focus in on the noise the waterfall or stream makes, but won't hear the other noises (such as birds chirping) as well. With a stereo mic you'll capture more of the sound around you, at the cost of being able to focus in on specific noises.

Ideally you'll have multiple microphones for whatever situation you'll be in. Kind of like lenses. Some mics can also do both, or at least say they can.

ac6000cw · June 19

The equivalent of lens 'focal length' for microphones is their 'polar pattern, which their sensitivity to sound versus the angle relative to the direction the mic is pointed.

Below is the polar pattern diagram for the stereo Rode VideoMic-X that you mentioned in the first post. The front of the mic is at the 0 degree position, the rear at 180 degrees. It will respond to sound (to some extent) over a range of +/- 120 degrees relative to the forward direction. It is most sensitive to sounds over around a +/- 60 degree range.

Because of its polar pattern and because it's a stereo mic, IMHO it and other stereo mics are good choice if you want to record a general ambient stereo sound field. The recording if played back on a normal stereo loudspeaker setup should recreate the original sound field reasonably well, and you'll be able to locate the individual sound sources within the sound field.

image.png.65ba63b19c566e97e6167f87c0925327.png

If you are trying to record (for example) one person speaking and need to exclude as much of the ambient sound from the sides and rear as possible, you would probably choose a mono mic with narrower polar pattern like a super-cardioid/hyper-cardioid/short shotgun mic e.g. the Rode NTG4 below:

image.png.861a78bce81069c0dd6c1c899186a259.png

...or a more extreme 'long shotgun' mic like the Rode NTG8, with a much narrower polar pattern:

image.png.b93eff32f239acba7ca93a0d1d61e0a2.png

lsquare · June 19

2 minutes ago, ac6000cw said:

The equivalent of lens 'focal length' for microphones is their 'polar pattern, which their sensitivity to sound versus the angle relative to the direction the mic is pointed.

Below is the polar pattern diagram for the stereo Rode VideoMic-X that you mentioned in the first post. The front of the mic is at the 0 degree position, the rear at 180 degrees. It will respond to sound (to some extent) over a range of +/- 120 degrees relative to the forward direction. It is most sensitive to sounds over around a +/- 60 degree range.

Because of its polar pattern and because it's a stereo mic, IMHO it and other stereo mics are good choice if you want to record a general ambient stereo sound field. The recording if played back on a normal stereo loudspeaker setup should recreate the original sound field reasonably well, and you'll be able to locate the individual sound sources within the sound field.

If you are trying to record (for example) one person speaking and need to exclude as much of the ambient sound from the sides and rear as possible, you would probably choose a mono mic with narrower polar pattern like a super-cardioid/hyper-cardioid/short shotgun mic e.g. the Rode NTG4 below:

...or a more extreme 'long shotgun' mic like the Rode NTG8, with a much narrower polar pattern:

You guys are amazing, especially the last two posts. It has dramatically improved my understanding of mics, believe it or not. I guess I'm looking for an all-in-one mic, but I guess that doesn't exist. Bringing multiple mics will be an issue due to space and weight. For camera lenses, I have mostly settled on zooms and all-in-one zooms for versatility and weight savings compared to bringing multiple prime lenses.

ac6000cw · June 19

47 minutes ago, lsquare said:

I guess I'm looking for an all-in-one mic, but I guess that doesn't exist. Bringing multiple mics will be an issue due to space and weight.

There are a few camera-mount mics around like the AT8024, which combine a mono cardioid mic with a mid-side mic and are switchable between mono and stereo - https://www.audio-technica.com/en-us/at8024 (I've never used it so no idea what the sound quality is like).

That will plug directly into the 3.5mm mic jack on the camera if you want to keep things as light/small/simple as possible.

image.png.0382bd5c6ead9f25101464cf0e3dda9a.png

As an alternative, if you can take two mics, I'd be tempted to take maybe a stereo Rode Stereo VideoMic Pro for the 'ambient sound' situations, plus a mono Rode VideoMic NTG for when you need a more directional, more focused mic. Both will plug directly into the camera and are lightweight (about 100g each), not huge and not too expensive. Again, I've not used either mic so can't comment on the sound quality.

If you're going to be recording outdoors a lot, make sure you have decent furry windshields/windsocks for the mics - you'll definitely need them at some point...

BTM_Pix · June 19

Zoom make an interesting product that might be applicable called the M3 Mictrak which is a combined stereo/mono mic and 32bit float recorder.

https://zoomcorp.com/en/gb/mictrak-recorders/mictrak-recorders/m3-mictrak/

It can record in Mono, 90 degree and 120 degree and this is switchable on the mic so you can do it on the fly to adjust to whatever you are trying to capture with it.

However, it also has a trick to enable you to change the stereo width in post production so you can tune it later.

Of course, with it being 32 bit float, it also has the benefit of being very forgiving when correcting levels in post production too.

All in all, its quite a feature packed all in one bridge between your on board mics and more elaborate (and bulkier) setups to dip your toe in as at £160 it won't break the bank either.

HOWEVER....

The Mictrak range (there are two others) had a lot of issues with RF interference when launched.

Zoom did address these issues immediately and replaced affected units so make sure you do your research and get one of the later batches.

Its for this reason that there is hardly any buzz (ho ho) about this range which is a pity because they are really interesting products.

IronFilm · June 19

3 hours ago, ac6000cw said:

The equivalent of lens 'focal length' for microphones is their 'polar pattern, which their sensitivity to sound versus the angle relative to the direction the mic is pointed.

While that analogy has some descriptive benefits, you also have got to be careful to not fall into the trap of thinking too deeply in that manner of thinking that there is a "lenses = microphones" equivalency.

For instance using a Sennheiser MKH816 is nothing at all like filming with a 200mm lens.

As a lens completely 100% cuts out everything that is not in the FoV of this 200mm lens. And draws in what is seen "closer" in a sense. But something that is say behind you for instance, or to your immediate left or immediate right? 100% eliminated!

Of course this is nothing like how the Sennheiser MKH816 behaves! Not even close.

3 hours ago, newfoundmass said:

Let's say you're on a busy street and there's a man playing music on the corner.

Another factor to consider is that your mind plays very sophisticated tricks on you, with lots of fancy auditory processing of what's coming in through your ears. Your brain has an incredible ability to filter out sounds you don't wish to hear. But audio recordings are nothing whatsoever like that, you'll capture everything raw as it really is at the mic. (I think an important skill as a Sound Mixer, is to be able to not have any filters on your ears, but to instead to truly listen. It's incredible how often I might say "do you hear this... ?" and they initially have no idea what noise on set I'm talking about)

You might think you want an omni microphone to emulate the feeling you get standing on a street watching a musician playing music on the corner, but in reality that MKH816 might come an awful lot closer to delivering the feeling of what you actually perceived yourself to be hearing.

That's why I've said many times in this thread, "it depends". There are a lot of factors to consider, and what's the "right" answer can vary from one situation to another.